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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 20860. (Read 26608265 times)

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

We should absolutely avoid the danger of instilling into Bitcoin users some kind of belief that they have a right to free transactions. Nothing in life is free and the costs of security & decentralization cannot forever be externalized to nodes & miners.

In that sense it is perfectly reasonable to suggest we should strive to keep block size limit as close as possible to actual network demand. Flex cap proposals are interesting in this aspect.

Those transactions aren't free for the user even if the miners eat the cost. They STILL have to suffer exchange rate risk while using bitcoin. If they have to pay a fee higher than nominal WHILE BITCOIN IS STILL IN ALPHA, for the vast majority of people, that just isn't worth it. 

Miners have to subsidize transaction costs to bootstrap usage or this baby will die in its crib. That's why you're getting the goddamn block reward. I am the customer. I am the user who buys your fucking coins. What am I getting for my money if I have to take this monster risk and have to pay a fee anyway?  VISA gives me cash back for chrissakes. They are your competition. If you can't beat them, you won't earn their customers.

Don't you small block fuckers know how business works?

 Undecided

This post is full of misguided assumptions.

It should come as a rational observation considering the shortcomings you have pointed out that there exist absolutely no incentive to purchase bitcoins to make purchases. No amount of scaling is going to incentivize mainstream consumers to go through such hoops for a low-cost/free transactions as most of the time they don't pay for the transaction anyway, merchants eat them. You are correct that there is absolutely no way for Bitcoin to compete with VISA as a consumer payment processor and again, no amount of blocksize scale is going to change this.

The reasonable thing to ask then is do we really want Bitcoin to compete with Visa or is there another, possibly more valuable, use case for Bitcoin? What about digital gold? That sounds like an area where Bitcoin could thoroughly outcompete other players in its current state, with little to no change necessary. Why are we targeting to replace payment processors when we could somehow attract the incomparable value that resides in precious metal markets, offshore saving accounts and general safe havens? That sounds like a much more interesting moonshot if you ask me.

As is yours. Making the assumption that bitcoin was never intended to be a transaction system is probably the biggest assumption of them all.

Why would I want to use Bitcoin for transactions? 1) I don't have to go to the bank to get a cashiers check or a deal with questions to withdraw cash for my son's college car. 2) As a business owner I loathed paying fees to credit card companies, so I help other businesses as much as possible by using cash, I use bitcoin when they support it because I know the business will take in more money.  

Bitcoin has ALWAYS been a system for transactions, that has never changed, suggesting otherwise is ignoring history and inventing a new future for Bitcoin.

Frankly, I am not really caring where this blocksize debate lands, but being dishonest about Bitcoin and its history with transactions is absurd.

Were do I mention that Bitcoin is not intended for transactions?

There are plenty of legitimate use cases for transactions on the Bitcoin blockchain. The purchase of your son's college car might be a good one. Surely you wouldn't mind paying some extra fees to secure this purchase without having to rely on any third party?

As for your hardships as a business owner I am sorry to hear this but rest assured necessary technology will evolve using Bitcoin as a settlement layer and should be able to accomodate you transactions needs in a more efficient, faster and private way than you could ever hope for on the Bitcoin blockchain.

Suggesting that Bitcoin is better at processing large value transactions should not be interpreted as an assumption that Bitcoin "was never intended to be a transaction system".
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista


Who wants brg444 coins?


 Huh

Did Fatman sell his account to Lambchop or something?

Why?? Do you think that pointing you out as a fool should be a monopolized industry as well  Huh

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
Sure, easy: Satoshi makes no distinction between miners and nodes.

How is this an error?  The network is composed of nodes.  Some nodes mine, some don't.  (I could also be pedantic and say all nodes mine but some have zero hash power.)  I don't see how this is an error.

This is absolutely an error because it ignores significant game theoric scenarios such as the one we are experiencing now which is that not all miners validate themselves their transactions causing the SPV mining fiasco we've recently experienced.

Let's agree to disagree then.  I don't consider Satoshi's omission of a predication of SPV mining an "error in the white paper."

Quote
This is a perfect example of Bitcoin evolving in a way Satoshi did not think of.

I wasn't suggesting that Satoshi foresaw precisely how Bitcoin would evolve.  I was just questioning your/(Danny's) claim that the white paper got "many details wrong."  I'm not aware of a single detail the white paper "got wrong."

I agree that the fact Satoshi does not separate and account for node vs miner right now appears to be significant. Satoshi failing to account for the difference IS an error if not doing so jeopardize the whole model. So time will tell if he got this wrong.

Great point!  I'll agree to your definition: we don't know yet whether his omission to differentiate mining from non-mining nodes was an error.  If the difference between them harms the incentive structure enough that Bitcoin fails to provide (a) double-spend protection, and (b) censorship resistance, then and only then would I agree that it was an error in the design as described by the white paper.  
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1014
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC

I agree that the fact Satoshi does not separate and account for node vs miner right now appears to be significant. Satoshi failing to account for the difference IS an error if not doing so jeopardize the whole model. So time will tell if he got this wrong.

It's not on Satoshi anymore. If it goes belly up it's our fault.
legendary
Activity: 1639
Merit: 1006
#1 smoking gun problem with Bitcoin, not enough distinct miners make up 75% of hashing power. It is making me want to no longer be a HODLER as I think about it.
legendary
Activity: 1639
Merit: 1006
Sure, easy: Satoshi makes no distinction between miners and nodes.

How is this an error?  The network is composed of nodes.  Some nodes mine, some don't.  (I could also be pedantic and say all nodes mine but some have zero hash power.)  I don't see how this is an error.

This is absolutely an error because it ignores significant game theoric scenarios such as the one we are experiencing now which is that not all miners validate themselves their transactions causing the SPV mining fiasco we've recently experienced.

Let's agree to disagree then.  I don't consider Satoshi's omission of a predication of SPV mining an "error in the white paper."

Quote
This is a perfect example of Bitcoin evolving in a way Satoshi did not think of.

I wasn't suggesting that Satoshi foresaw precisely how Bitcoin would evolve.  I was just questioning your/(Danny's) claim that the white paper got "many details wrong."  I'm not aware of a single detail the white paper "got wrong."

I agree that the fact Satoshi does not separate and account for node vs miner right now appears to be significant. Satoshi failing to account for the difference IS an error if not doing so jeopardize the whole model. So time will tell if he got this wrong.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
do we really want Bitcoin to compete with Visa or is there another, possibly more valuable, use case for Bitcoin? What about digital gold? That sounds like an area where Bitcoin could thoroughly outcompete other players in its current state, with little to no change necessary. Why are we targeting to replace payment processors when we could somehow attract the incomparable value that resides in precious metal markets, offshore saving accounts and general safe havens? That sounds like a much more interesting moonshot if you ask me.

Gold has utility value. Even so, it has become a financial backwater. A "barbarous relic".   At least gold can be used for jewelry, dental fillings, electrical connections, etc.  It's been a poor store of value this century.

Bitcoin doesn't even have those advantages. Without the blockchain, Bitcoin is just another crypto and those are in infinite supply. How can a cryptographic token be a store of value without any utility value?  No micropayments? No remittances? no irreversable consumer payments?

The thing about Swiss bank accounts was that they were bank accounts, only secret.  There are several cryptocoins that are better at anonymity: Monero, Dash, etc.

The thing about gold is that it is not in alpha or beta, but has a five thousand year history.  After Gox, Silk Road and all the other thefts and scams, you really think Bitcoin can be seen as a safe haven?  With no utility value?? Are you fucking insane? 
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1014
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC


Who wants brg444 coins?


 Huh

Did Fatman sell his account to Lambchop or something?

I thought this pig-headed debate needed a chimer.

When people starts arguing about what satoshi knew or said or foretold, it's really just running on fumes anyway. Most of what he said is readily available on that interweb-thingy if anyone really cares.

"What would Jesus have done?"

Jesus ain't here. Satoshi bailed.
legendary
Activity: 1639
Merit: 1006

We should absolutely avoid the danger of instilling into Bitcoin users some kind of belief that they have a right to free transactions. Nothing in life is free and the costs of security & decentralization cannot forever be externalized to nodes & miners.

In that sense it is perfectly reasonable to suggest we should strive to keep block size limit as close as possible to actual network demand. Flex cap proposals are interesting in this aspect.

Those transactions aren't free for the user even if the miners eat the cost. They STILL have to suffer exchange rate risk while using bitcoin. If they have to pay a fee higher than nominal WHILE BITCOIN IS STILL IN ALPHA, for the vast majority of people, that just isn't worth it. 

Miners have to subsidize transaction costs to bootstrap usage or this baby will die in its crib. That's why you're getting the goddamn block reward. I am the customer. I am the user who buys your fucking coins. What am I getting for my money if I have to take this monster risk and have to pay a fee anyway?  VISA gives me cash back for chrissakes. They are your competition. If you can't beat them, you won't earn their customers.

Don't you small block fuckers know how business works?

 Undecided

This post is full of misguided assumptions.

It should come as a rational observation considering the shortcomings you have pointed out that there exist absolutely no incentive to purchase bitcoins to make purchases. No amount of scaling is going to incentivize mainstream consumers to go through such hoops for a low-cost/free transactions as most of the time they don't pay for the transaction anyway, merchants eat them. You are correct that there is absolutely no way for Bitcoin to compete with VISA as a consumer payment processor and again, no amount of blocksize scale is going to change this.

The reasonable thing to ask then is do we really want Bitcoin to compete with Visa or is there another, possibly more valuable, use case for Bitcoin? What about digital gold? That sounds like an area where Bitcoin could thoroughly outcompete other players in its current state, with little to no change necessary. Why are we targeting to replace payment processors when we could somehow attract the incomparable value that resides in precious metal markets, offshore saving accounts and general safe havens? That sounds like a much more interesting moonshot if you ask me.

As is yours. Making the assumption that bitcoin was never intended to be a transaction system is probably the biggest assumption of them all.

Why would I want to use Bitcoin for transactions? 1) I don't have to go to the bank to get a cashiers check or a deal with questions to withdraw cash for my son's college car. 2) As a business owner I loathed paying fees to credit card companies, so I help other businesses as much as possible by using cash, I use bitcoin when they support it because I know the business will take in more money.  

Bitcoin has ALWAYS been a system for transactions, that has never changed, suggesting otherwise is ignoring history and inventing a new future for Bitcoin.

Frankly, I am not really caring where this blocksize debate lands, but being dishonest about Bitcoin and its history with transactions is absurd.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
Sure, easy: Satoshi makes no distinction between miners and nodes.

How is this an error?  The network is composed of nodes.  Some nodes mine, some don't.  (I could also be pedantic and say all nodes mine but some have zero hash power.)  I don't see how this is an error.

This is absolutely an error because it ignores significant game theoric scenarios such as the one we are experiencing now which is that not all miners validate themselves their transactions causing the SPV mining fiasco we've recently experienced.

Let's agree to disagree then.  I don't consider Satoshi's omission of a predication of SPV mining an "error in the white paper."

Quote
This is a perfect example of Bitcoin evolving in a way Satoshi did not think of.

I wasn't suggesting that Satoshi foresaw precisely how Bitcoin would evolve.  I was just questioning your/(Danny's) claim that the white paper got "many details wrong."  I'm not aware of a single detail the white paper "got wrong."
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


Who wants brg444 coins?


 Huh

Did Fatman sell his account to Lambchop or something?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Bitcoin has evolved since the whitepaper was written.  It gives a good introduction to the overall concepts, but the whitepaper gets many of the details wrong

Name one detail it got wrong (and I don't mean one detail that it omitted).

Sure, easy: Satoshi makes no distinction between miners and nodes.

How is this an error?  The network is composed of nodes.  Some nodes mine, some don't.  (I could also be pedantic and say all nodes mine but some have zero hash power.)  I don't see how this is an error.

This is absolutely an error because it ignores significant game theoric scenarios such as the one we are experiencing now which is that not all miners validate themselves their transactions causing the SPV mining fiasco we've recently experienced.

This is a perfect example of Bitcoin evolving in a way Satoshi did not think of.
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1014
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC

Who wants brg444-coins?





legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
Bitcoin has evolved since the whitepaper was written.  It gives a good introduction to the overall concepts, but the whitepaper gets many of the details wrong

Name one detail it got wrong (and I don't mean one detail that it omitted).

Sure, easy: Satoshi makes no distinction between miners and nodes.

How is this an error?  The network is composed of nodes.  Some nodes mine, some don't.  (I could also be pedantic and say all nodes mine but some have zero hash power.)  I don't see how this can be interpreted as an error.
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
Every thread seems to be a mixed topic thread recently

Yep, bitcointalk has become blocksizetalk.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
Bitcoin has evolved since the whitepaper was written.  It gives a good introduction to the overall concepts, but the whitepaper gets many of the details wrong

Name one detail it got wrong (and I don't mean one detail that it omitted).

Sure, easy: Satoshi makes no distinction between miners and nodes.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
Bitcoin has evolved since the whitepaper was written.  It gives a good introduction to the overall concepts, but the whitepaper gets many of the details wrong

Name one detail it got wrong (and I don't mean one detail that it omitted).
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
The entire paper is about transactions occurring on the Blockchain.  

Quote
...Maybe we ought to admit that there are intricacies about Bitcoin that Satoshi had no possible ways to know about when he laid the groundwork? I believe nullc was quick to point out a couple of these to you on reddit the other day. Consider for example the 21 million limit which was not specified (and actually not even enforced in the original code).

Satoshi does mention a limit to the number of coins:



Satoshi does NOT mention a block size limit AT ALL, regardless of what nullc says.  

I see you've replied to the post I was going to quote but I'm gonna post it here regardless since it pretty much address in a succinct way all that is wrong with your recurring tendency to point to the white paper as some sort of holy scripture.

Bitcoin has evolved since the whitepaper was written.  It gives a good introduction to the overall concepts, but the whitepaper gets many of the details wrong
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
Why is that better than forcing the fee directly, and ensuring that the capacity is well above the demand?  (I ca think of several reasons why it is much worse.)

It's not.  In fact, Nicolas Houy shows in this paper that a block size limit is economically equivalent to a minimum fee:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2400519

One criticism of the minimum-fee approach is that it would be possible (albeit awkward) for miners to refund fees out-of-band.

I think this paper was quite helpful, however, one thing it did not consider is the fact that miners may have their blocks orphaned, thereby forfeiting the block reward.  This orphaning risk serves as a production cost for our new economic commodity called block space.  In this paper (which I know you've seen), I build from Nicolas Houy's work to show that if orphaning is included, that a healthy fee market would exist without a block size limit.

I bought into Bitcoin because I thought I WAS buying block space by buying bitcoin….

I think you've misunderstood.  By "block space" I mean bytes in the Blockchain to hold transaction entries.  I don't mean the number of coins.  You ARE buying a fixed % of the money supply when you buy bitcoins. 
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