Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 21059.

Erdogan

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1005

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 11:23:55 AM

Quote from: Bagatell on August 16, 2015, 11:20:15 AM

Quote from: Erdogan on August 16, 2015, 11:15:31 AM

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 11:10:51 AM

Quote from: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 16, 2015, 11:03:48 AM

There will only be a fork once 75% have moved to XT. Up to that point there is but one chain. Once the fork occurs, there will be a very rapid migration of the remainder to the consensus chain. There will be no extended period of duplicate chains.

How do you know how long this will take and what the consequences will be in the meantime? Define extended period? As far as I understand it, this is going to be messy as hell and even if the old chain is sold into oblivion in 72 hours, the PR damage will be permanent and who knows who is going to get scammed or which transactions will get completely fucked in the meantime.

The main reason for a short life of two paralell coins, is that liquidity the the all importan statistics. Two coins almost exactly the same is totally unstable. It has to lean to one side or the other, then the one with smaller popularity will take the liquidity hit and land hard.

"As to what will happen if/ when there is a hardfork:

Currently MultiBit Classic and HD both will follow the chain with the most work done in it.
Thus in a hardfork all the existing MultiBit code will follow the 'winner'. This is how the normal one or two block forks (that occur reasonably frequently) get resolved so it should just be the same but on a larger scale.

Both MultiBit Classic and HD connects to Bitcoin Core and XT happily and they should work correctly with larger blocks. The bloom filtered blocks Core/ XT send back to MultiBit are the same - MultiBit is agnostic about connecting to Core or XT."

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12154185

So all over in about twenty minutes or so.

That is just one wallet... Everyone needs to have a similar feature already built into their systems before that majority hits. At the current rate of adoption that looks to be less than 3 weeks away.

I want every wallet provider, electrum, mytrezor, mycelium... to declare where they stand. There should be enough time, no rush.

aztecminer

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Spider-Carnage on August 16, 2015, 10:23:59 AM

I think the best solution is to make this whole ordeal automatic. Obviously, we're going to need larger blocks in the future, as bitcoin becomes accepted in more and more places. If we do not increase the limit, there will be no more bitcoin. An altcoin with a less stubborn dev team will take up the mantle of the face of cryptocurrency and pick up right where bitcoin left off.
The problem with leaving it up to the community is the same as leaving the halving up to the community, I think. Sorry to say, I dont trust people with that decision, be they node runners or not. There should be a set mathematical model based on community growth rates and estimated physical storage capacity. This is a fundamental issue that satoshi did did not seem to solve, this is about as important as the distribution of bitcoin and the 21 million limit. I also agree with ronald98, downloading and/or indexing the whole thing is a pain in the ass. I've recently had to reindex the blockchain and my computer has taken about 4 days doing so. What determines how long it takes, processing power?

it only takes me a few hours to do the work. you should consider upgrading your hardware if you want to do the work faster. in other words.. dont buy you pc from best buy because they dont care how long it takes you to download and index block chain. you trying to store everything on your one os drive and wondering why you are so slow. maybe one day pcs that u buy from best buy will care about the blockcahin and come with os drive + striped set of hard drives for you to download and index your blockchain.. not to mention your games will run better when run from striped drives as well. to be top your game is helpful to be ahead of the game. a best buy gimp pc isn't made for bitcoin.. if it takes you four days to download and index blockchain the you should consider keeping your coins on an exchange lol.

conspirosphere.tk

legendary

Activity: 2352

Merit: 1064

Bitcoin is antisemitic

this, and the fact that the free fee market would solve any traffic glut is what make me suspect that the blocksize crusade is just an inside job for a controlled demolition of btc.

Quote from: AlexGR on August 16, 2015, 11:22:56 AM

The worst case scenario is that someone starts spamming the blockchain with the 8mb blocks. Then, next thing you know, people will say "ohh these 8mb blocks are full, we need bigger blocks". Then you get 20mb blocks and ~3gb/day of bloat / >1 tb per year. And who is to stop them spamming the 20mb blocks and getting them full too? What's next? We'll be asking for 100mb blocks? This is madness.

Personally I don't believe that even the 750k/1mb blocks are full by legitimate transactions and not bogus transactions. I believe these bogus transactions are created to stir a "debate" about "ohh we need bigger blocks" and stuff so that we can then go on and shoot ourselves in the foot by "accepting" larger blocks as the "natural evolution".

We have to deal with a reality here: Big banks, credit cards, swift etc, don't want BTC to succeed. Bloating it is a very cheap way they can use to kill it. It's much cheaper than a 51% and cheaper than manipulating the BTC market. And it will be FAAAAAAAAAR cheaper to enable that attack vector with 8mb or 20mb blocks.

sAt0sHiFanClub

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

Quote from: AlexGR on August 16, 2015, 11:22:56 AM

Quote from: billyjoeallen on August 16, 2015, 09:48:46 AM

Quote from: AlexGR on August 16, 2015, 08:34:15 AM

Can somebody explain this to me like I'm a 5 year old:

XT is supposed to make bitcoin futureproof, but how is it going to achieve that, when it can be spammed up to ~1.15gb / day, meaning that it'll take just 100 days for a determined attacker to increase the blockchain to +115gb, and around a year to take it up half a terabyte.

Terabyte hard drives are standard now. A year from now 5 TB drives will be standard. That's a worst case scenario and could still be easily handled.

The worst case scenario is that someone starts spamming the blockchain with the 8mb blocks. Then, next thing you know, people will say "ohh these 8mb blocks are full, we need bigger blocks". Then you get 20mb blocks and ~3gb/day of bloat / >1 tb per year. And who is to stop them spamming the 20mb blocks and getting them full too? What's next? We'll be asking for 100mb blocks? This is madness.

Personally I don't believe that even the 750k/1mb blocks are full by legitimate transactions and not bogus transactions. I believe these bogus transactions are created to stir a "debate" about "ohh we need bigger blocks" and stuff so that we can then go on and shoot ourselves in the foot by "accepting" larger blocks as the "natural evolution".

We have to deal with a reality here: Big banks, credit cards, swift etc, don't want BTC to succeed. Bloating it is a very cheap way they can use to kill it. It's much cheaper than a 51% and cheaper than manipulating the BTC market. And it will be FAAAAAAAAAR cheaper to enable that attack vector with 8mb or 20mb blocks.

I think you have just gone Full ~~Retard~~ Conspiracy Theory there. The issue is smaller than that, the solution is even simpler.

BrewCrewFan

hero member

Activity: 672

Merit: 501

Keep fuc*ing that bear guys. I want morz dumps until this gets resolved so I can get morz coins cheaper.

lebing

legendary

Activity: 1288

Merit: 1000

Enabling the maximal migration

Quote from: Bagatell on August 16, 2015, 11:20:15 AM

Quote from: Erdogan on August 16, 2015, 11:15:31 AM

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 11:10:51 AM

Quote from: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 16, 2015, 11:03:48 AM

There will only be a fork once 75% have moved to XT. Up to that point there is but one chain. Once the fork occurs, there will be a very rapid migration of the remainder to the consensus chain. There will be no extended period of duplicate chains.

How do you know how long this will take and what the consequences will be in the meantime? Define extended period? As far as I understand it, this is going to be messy as hell and even if the old chain is sold into oblivion in 72 hours, the PR damage will be permanent and who knows who is going to get scammed or which transactions will get completely fucked in the meantime.

The main reason for a short life of two paralell coins, is that liquidity the the all importan statistics. Two coins almost exactly the same is totally unstable. It has to lean to one side or the other, then the one with smaller popularity will take the liquidity hit and land hard.

"As to what will happen if/ when there is a hardfork:

Currently MultiBit Classic and HD both will follow the chain with the most work done in it.
Thus in a hardfork all the existing MultiBit code will follow the 'winner'. This is how the normal one or two block forks (that occur reasonably frequently) get resolved so it should just be the same but on a larger scale.

Both MultiBit Classic and HD connects to Bitcoin Core and XT happily and they should work correctly with larger blocks. The bloom filtered blocks Core/ XT send back to MultiBit are the same - MultiBit is agnostic about connecting to Core or XT."

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12154185

So all over in about twenty minutes or so.

That is just one wallet... Everyone needs to have a similar feature already built into their systems before that majority hits. At the current rate of adoption that looks to be less than 3 weeks away.

AlexGR

legendary

Activity: 1708

Merit: 1049

Quote from: billyjoeallen on August 16, 2015, 09:48:46 AM

Quote from: AlexGR on August 16, 2015, 08:34:15 AM

Can somebody explain this to me like I'm a 5 year old:

XT is supposed to make bitcoin futureproof, but how is it going to achieve that, when it can be spammed up to ~1.15gb / day, meaning that it'll take just 100 days for a determined attacker to increase the blockchain to +115gb, and around a year to take it up half a terabyte.

Terabyte hard drives are standard now. A year from now 5 TB drives will be standard. That's a worst case scenario and could still be easily handled.

The worst case scenario is that someone starts spamming the blockchain with the 8mb blocks. Then, next thing you know, people will say "ohh these 8mb blocks are full, we need bigger blocks". Then you get 20mb blocks and ~3gb/day of bloat / >1 tb per year. And who is to stop them spamming the 20mb blocks and getting them full too? What's next? We'll be asking for 100mb blocks? This is madness.

Personally I don't believe that even the 750k/1mb blocks are full by legitimate transactions and not bogus transactions. I believe these bogus transactions are created to stir a "debate" about "ohh we need bigger blocks" and stuff so that we can then go on and shoot ourselves in the foot by "accepting" larger blocks as the "natural evolution".

We have to deal with a reality here: Big banks, credit cards, swift etc, don't want BTC to succeed. Bloating it is a very cheap way they can use to kill it. It's much cheaper than a 51% and cheaper than manipulating the BTC market. And it will be FAAAAAAAAAR cheaper to enable that attack vector with 8mb or 20mb blocks.

sAt0sHiFanClub

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

If you are planning on setting up a node, you should be fairly committed to it. More nodes are better, but only if those nodes are reliable ( have high availability) Nodes that pop up every now and again at random intervals can actually be detrimental to the network. I dont think there is a hard science to it, but it should be borne in mind.

If you want to run a node and be a real asset to the network, then you should be prepared to have a machine that is always on.

Bagatell

hero member

Activity: 722

Merit: 500

Quote from: Erdogan on August 16, 2015, 11:15:31 AM

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 11:10:51 AM

Quote from: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 16, 2015, 11:03:48 AM

There will only be a fork once 75% have moved to XT. Up to that point there is but one chain. Once the fork occurs, there will be a very rapid migration of the remainder to the consensus chain. There will be no extended period of duplicate chains.

How do you know how long this will take and what the consequences will be in the meantime? Define extended period? As far as I understand it, this is going to be messy as hell and even if the old chain is sold into oblivion in 72 hours, the PR damage will be permanent and who knows who is going to get scammed or which transactions will get completely fucked in the meantime.

The main reason for a short life of two paralell coins, is that liquidity the the all importan statistics. Two coins almost exactly the same is totally unstable. It has to lean to one side or the other, then the one with smaller popularity will take the liquidity hit and land hard.

"As to what will happen if/ when there is a hardfork:

Currently MultiBit Classic and HD both will follow the chain with the most work done in it.
Thus in a hardfork all the existing MultiBit code will follow the 'winner'. This is how the normal one or two block forks (that occur reasonably frequently) get resolved so it should just be the same but on a larger scale.

Both MultiBit Classic and HD connects to Bitcoin Core and XT happily and they should work correctly with larger blocks. The bloom filtered blocks Core/ XT send back to MultiBit are the same - MultiBit is agnostic about connecting to Core or XT."

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12154185

So all over in about twenty minutes or so.

lebing

legendary

Activity: 1288

Merit: 1000

Enabling the maximal migration

Quote from: Erdogan on August 16, 2015, 11:15:31 AM

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 11:10:51 AM

Quote from: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 16, 2015, 11:03:48 AM

There will only be a fork once 75% have moved to XT. Up to that point there is but one chain. Once the fork occurs, there will be a very rapid migration of the remainder to the consensus chain. There will be no extended period of duplicate chains.

How do you know how long this will take and what the consequences will be in the meantime? Define extended period? As far as I understand it, this is going to be messy as hell and even if the old chain is sold into oblivion in 72 hours, the PR damage will be permanent and who knows who is going to get scammed or which transactions will get completely fucked in the meantime.

The main reason for a short life of two paralell coins, is that liquidity the the all importan statistics. Two coins almost exactly the same is totally unstable. It has to lean to one side or the other, then the one with smaller popularity will take the liquidity hit and land hard.

Yeah the life might be short, but you can't quantify right now exactly how short that will be or what will happen in the meantime. My point is to think that this will not have a huge effect on the price is completely naive thinking. It is going to be a PR nightmare for bitcoin at a minimum. At worst it will simply destroy confidence entirely in a consensus based cryptocurrency system.

Patel

legendary

Activity: 1320

Merit: 1007

I consider this an test on Bitcoin's consensus.

To me, it's a form of a stress test.

We have individuals that are spreading their {beliefs|propaganda|opinions} to other users, and attempting to fork Bitcoin.

Let's see how easy it would be for a third party to fork Bitcoin to their own liking.

Erdogan

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1005

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 11:10:51 AM

Quote from: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 16, 2015, 11:03:48 AM

There will only be a fork once 75% have moved to XT. Up to that point there is but one chain. Once the fork occurs, there will be a very rapid migration of the remainder to the consensus chain. There will be no extended period of duplicate chains.

How do you know how long this will take and what the consequences will be in the meantime? Define extended period? As far as I understand it, this is going to be messy as hell and even if the old chain is sold into oblivion in 72 hours, the PR damage will be permanent and who knows who is going to get scammed or which transactions will get completely fucked in the meantime.

The main reason for a short life of two paralell coins, is that liquidity the the all important statistics. Two coins almost exactly the same is totally unstable. It has to lean to one side or the other, then the one with smaller popularity will take the liquidity hit and land hard.

EDIT: Running XT is the safe, laid back option. Watch the drama at a distance. It will follow the longest chain.

aztecminer

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1000

Quote from: billyjoeallen on August 16, 2015, 09:48:46 AM

Quote from: AlexGR on August 16, 2015, 08:34:15 AM

Can somebody explain this to me like I'm a 5 year old:

XT is supposed to make bitcoin futureproof, but how is it going to achieve that, when it can be spammed up to ~1.15gb / day, meaning that it'll take just 100 days for a determined attacker to increase the blockchain to +115gb, and around a year to take it up half a terabyte.

Terabyte hard drives are standard now. A year from now 5 TB drives will be standard. That's a worst case scenario and could still be easily handled.

my blockchain downloads to three 1Tb hardrives in raid 0 configuration on both my desktop pcs (i do not download blockchain to laptop! i use laptop for offline transactions). in other words, for the newbs, i am writing the blockchain to three separate hard drives (equals reads/writes faster) that appear as on giant 3Tb hard drive. i only write data to these striped hard drives that i can afford to lose since they are not parity protected since that would slow the reads/writes down to those drives. i keep all important data on an external NAS drive with five 3tb hard drives parity raided (raid 5 or raid 6 cannot remember atm) giving me 8Tb of protected from catastrophe disk space. the os drives are 512Gb SSD drives on all pcs including laptop. this should be the very minimum disk configurations for all pcs these days imo.

lebing

legendary

Activity: 1288

Merit: 1000

Enabling the maximal migration

Quote from: sAt0sHiFanClub on August 16, 2015, 11:03:48 AM

There will only be a fork once 75% have moved to XT. Up to that point there is but one chain. Once the fork occurs, there will be a very rapid migration of the remainder to the consensus chain. There will be no extended period of duplicate chains.

How do you know how long this will take and what the consequences will be in the meantime? Define extended period? As far as I understand it, this is going to be messy as hell and even if the old chain is sold into oblivion in 72 hours, the PR damage will be permanent and who knows who is going to get scammed or which transactions will get completely fucked in the meantime.

ElectricMucus

legendary

Activity: 1666

Merit: 1057

Marketing manager - GO MP

Quote from: conspirosphere.tk on August 16, 2015, 11:05:58 AM

Quote from: Fatman3001 on August 16, 2015, 10:34:14 AM

If you insist on running a full node then you'll have to run a full node. I don't see the problem.

a problem is that the number of full nodes is already pathetically low, and to further decreasing it of an order of magnitude or 2 via much higher bandwidth and hardware specs opens a whole can of worms about transparency, trust, resilience/antifragility and whatnot.

I'd prefer that ppl use dogcoins or any alt of their choice for microtx, tips, spam, and frappucinos, and use btc only for serious stuff.

Without a personal incentive to run a node that's not all surprising. In that respect the hard work is a welcome precedent so that such incentives may be added in the future.

Erdogan

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1005

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 11:04:35 AM

Quote from: Erdogan on August 16, 2015, 10:53:18 AM

The code fork is XT. The chain fork will look like just another random orphan. 5 blocks toppers.

What does that mean?

The eventual chain fork will be so short lived, most people will not see it. I suppose by analyzing the timestamps you could, after the fact, see that a small number of miners were left on the smallblocks branch, until they discover they have been left at the station.

conspirosphere.tk

legendary

Activity: 2352

Merit: 1064

Bitcoin is antisemitic

Quote from: Fatman3001 on August 16, 2015, 10:34:14 AM

If you insist on running a full node then you'll have to run a full node. I don't see the problem.

a problem is that the number of full nodes is already pathetically low, and to further decreasing it of an order of magnitude or 2 via much higher bandwidth and hardware specs opens a whole can of worms about transparency, trust, resilience/antifragility and whatnot.

I'd prefer that ppl use dogcoins or any alt of their choice for microtx, tips, spam, and frappucinos, and use btc only for serious stuff.

lebing

legendary

Activity: 1288

Merit: 1000

Enabling the maximal migration

Quote from: Erdogan on August 16, 2015, 10:53:18 AM

The code fork is XT. The chain fork will look like just another random orphan. 5 blocks toppers.

What does that mean?

Erdogan

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1005

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 10:51:20 AM

Quote from: BitThink on August 16, 2015, 03:57:40 AM

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 02:59:03 AM

Quote from: cyclotronmajesty on August 16, 2015, 02:53:11 AM

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 02:47:18 AM

Quote from: cyclotronmajesty on August 16, 2015, 02:40:43 AM

OK finally...

Why did the market wait a whole week to dump 10K coins for 3 dollar discount?

Cheesy

Is this it? Or will we dump another 10k and get our $255 coin?

because the fork is actually happening now. This isnt going to be good for the price.

As I understand it the fork is a very slow process.

It is until it isnt. The writing is on the wall now. I am of the opinion this is going to be very bad for bitcoin.

This fork only makes difference when majority (75%) miners have switched to the new fork. Actually, since everyone can see the progress in the blockchain, once it is close to 75%, most of miners and nodes will switch already. So in my opinion, there will be no noticeable fork happen at all.

Depends on your perspective. From the perspective of a merchant or an exchange, it is very much going to affect them as there are going to be two copies of the blockchain and that means two copies of spendable coins. This is not going to be good.

They will be smart running some wallet based on XT, starting from today. No hazzle, just removing themselves from the problem, minding their business.

sAt0sHiFanClub

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 10:51:20 AM

Quote from: BitThink on August 16, 2015, 03:57:40 AM

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 02:59:03 AM

Quote from: cyclotronmajesty on August 16, 2015, 02:53:11 AM

Quote from: lebing on August 16, 2015, 02:47:18 AM

Quote from: cyclotronmajesty on August 16, 2015, 02:40:43 AM

OK finally...

Why did the market wait a whole week to dump 10K coins for 3 dollar discount?

Cheesy

Is this it? Or will we dump another 10k and get our $255 coin?

because the fork is actually happening now. This isnt going to be good for the price.

As I understand it the fork is a very slow process.

It is until it isnt. The writing is on the wall now. I am of the opinion this is going to be very bad for bitcoin.

This fork only makes difference when majority (75%) miners have switched to the new fork. Actually, since everyone can see the progress in the blockchain, once it is close to 75%, most of miners and nodes will switch already. So in my opinion, there will be no noticeable fork happen at all.

Depends on your perspective. From the perspective of a merchant or an exchange, it is very much going to affect them as there are going to be two copies of the blockchain and that means two copies of spendable coins. This is not going to be good.

There will only be a fork once 75% have moved to XT. Up to that point there is but one chain. Once the fork occurs, there will be a very rapid migration of the remainder to the consensus chain. There will be no extended period of duplicate chains.

Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 21059. (Read 26710097 times)