Explanation
Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 27088. (Read 26720830 times)
June 26, 2014, 11:01:24 AM
June 26, 2014, 11:01:06 AM
Reading about mmitech issue makes me wonder...
How do the Muslims deal with banks? Interest = 0%??
serious question.
How do the Muslims deal with banks? Interest = 0%??
serious question.
If I understand it correctly , Muslims are not permitted to earn interest on money, this is "Riba" and is forbidden.
What they can do is receive rent for an asset they own - so a Muslim may buy an apartment, a physical good, and receive rent for allowing someone else to use it.
Given that bitcoin is not a physical thing on which one can earn a return I would have thought it was a bit of a grey area for Islamic finance anyway. Equities are ok as are securitizations as in those you buy the right to a series of cashflows that derive from a real asset, bitcoin hmm, tricky.
Yeah... the IRS rule clarification may have helped to declare bitcoin as property rather than as a currency... but in any event it is very conflicting to weave through the incorporation of such a practice in the modern world while maintaining various financial investments.
June 26, 2014, 11:00:42 AM
Interesting tidbit for many here:
"They make the obvious prediction that the Bitcoin will be sold for under-market value"
Are you guys going to be flaming the Bitstamp owners now?
Can someone on this subforum answer this one simple question, instead of completely ignoring it:
Q: In a closed door auction, where no one outside of it will know what the selling price was, how can Bitstamp, you, or anyone else know what the winning price was?
And don't just reply "The selling price will get leaked out" or some silly crap, as we know hearsay FUD is completely unreliable.
Why is it so improbable that the price gets leaked by one party or another? (if you trust them is another thing) or that the USM will at some point publish/account for at least the price that they acheived for the total auction/lots ? (which one would have thought would become public information via FOIA) They will not publish the whos but they might publish/need to account for the how much at least, but not the identity of the buyers)
June 26, 2014, 10:59:20 AM
What I see is a marketing push by SecondMarket and Pantera to convince Argentinians that bitcoin is a hedge against inflation (!) and therefore they should invest in SMBIT and PBP. Which are not doing well in the US, meh?
It is Neo & Bee for Argentina, only with marketing and muscle upped an order of magnitude. And not managed by a small-time crook.
It is Neo & Bee for Argentina, only with marketing and muscle upped an order of magnitude. And not managed by a small-time crook.
You conflate the 'investment opportunity to shady types' aspect with the 'additionals options through technology' one. Ignore, if you will, all of that article except for the localbitcoins aspect.
Quote
There’s no way for sure to measure the uptake of bitcoins in any country, but the evidence suggests Argentina is outpacing most. The number of traders listed on Local Bitcoins Buenos Aires is often three times that of Manhattan, for example, and the Fundacion Bitcoin Argentina is known to run the largest bitcoin meetup in the world.
You will then still (I suspect) argue that it's only a marketing ploy. I doubt that, though. If Argentinians are as cynical about promises as I got the impression they are*, no Pantera marketing push was the cause for this uptake in usage. It's more likely that the investment opportunity arose from the usage increase.
* source: Argentinian friend. Extremely skeptical of Bitcoin, though
It looks like there is uptake. Good article (but could of course be made up). Even with good progress, bitcoin will still be small when the peso hyperinflates. Only the people able and ready to act quickly can frontrun the demise of the peso.
True. Possible I got a bit too excited about it. There's just something... satisfying... to see Bitcoin used for perhaps the strongest reason that cryptos should exist - not as a speculative vehicle, not to avoid inflation (booh!, yeah I know), not to minimize transaction costs (important, but not as vital as the next point) - but to allow the near instantaneous transfer of ownership information & rights without distortion.
June 26, 2014, 10:58:08 AM
Also i wonder you mention below or above market price. Is that the price the minute the auction closes?The price it was when the bids had to be in? The price on Stamp or somewhere else? Who decides what the market price actually is?
Could it be that noone really has a clue?
Could it be that noone really has a clue?
Absoulutely true. Bitcointalk posters are the experts, you know. Does anyone have respect for a so called wall street professional who hasn't got around to buy in already?
June 26, 2014, 10:55:31 AM
Done properly there's a big advantage. Since you're effectively hire-purchasing a house, you cannot ever be in negative equity. Naturally, most banks don't like the idea of shifting liability onto themselves, hence the interest-driven model prevails elsewhere.
I am sure it's not quite as simple as that. At the least the "bank" will charge extra to cover their risk. Then your house could still be worth less than you paid for it when all is done. I bet there's some hefty penalty clause for early termination too.
"Properly" meaning according to the spirit of the law. Ijara mortgages tend to be slightly more expensive than regular ones, in any case - unless you are foreclosed, I imagine. I don't know the details, but they're not competitive financially with standard mortgages.
Seems to me like the spirit of the law is already pretty heavily subverted just by making a profit from lending money. You can dress it up how you like but it's all the same when you peek under the covers. What there appears to be is a heavy effort to conform to the letter of the law.
June 26, 2014, 10:55:20 AM
It does line up with the fact that noone has been buying Bitcoins at SecondMarket for almost two months. See: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/gbtc-bitcoin-investment-trust-observer-337486
Where do you get the 2 months from?
I understand that the 2 digit changes are just some rounding errors, but what about the 3 digit entry on June 3rd?
Quoted for truth. Yeah, I'm starting to seriously dislike the "Speculation" subforum because the participants want to completely ignore reality in favor of some made up fantasy.
Agreed, many here just seem intent to lend importance where there is none, meanwhile making up things that suit them and disregarding evidence. June 26, 2014, 10:53:56 AM
Interesting tidbit for many here:
"They make the obvious prediction that the Bitcoin will be sold for under-market value"
Are you guys going to be flaming the Bitstamp owners now?
Can someone on this subforum answer this one simple question, instead of completely ignoring it:
Q: In a closed door auction, where no one outside of it will know what the selling price was, how can Bitstamp, you, or anyone else know what the winning price was?
And don't just reply "The selling price will get leaked out" or some silly crap, as we know hearsay FUD is completely unreliable.
Oh, go on, I'll have a stab then.
Freedom of information request. Would take some time and may not be granted, but it's been mentioned by USMS.
Buyers may want to boast about their new purchase for one reason or another, perhaps to stabilise the market or show how clever they were to make a theoretical profit. Again, not a given but entirely possible.
June 26, 2014, 10:52:40 AM
What I see is a marketing push by SecondMarket and Pantera to convince Argentinians that bitcoin is a hedge against inflation (!) and therefore they should invest in SMBIT and PBP. Which are not doing well in the US, meh?
It is Neo & Bee for Argentina, only with marketing and muscle upped an order of magnitude. And not managed by a small-time crook.
It is Neo & Bee for Argentina, only with marketing and muscle upped an order of magnitude. And not managed by a small-time crook.
You conflate the 'investment opportunity to shady types' aspect with the 'additionals options through technology' one. Ignore, if you will, all of that article except for the localbitcoins aspect.
Quote
There’s no way for sure to measure the uptake of bitcoins in any country, but the evidence suggests Argentina is outpacing most. The number of traders listed on Local Bitcoins Buenos Aires is often three times that of Manhattan, for example, and the Fundacion Bitcoin Argentina is known to run the largest bitcoin meetup in the world.
You will then still (I suspect) argue that it's only a marketing ploy. I doubt that, though. If Argentinians are as cynical about promises as I got the impression they are*, no Pantera marketing push was the cause for this uptake in usage. It's more likely that the investment opportunity arose from the usage increase.
* source: Argentinian friend. Extremely skeptical of Bitcoin, though
It looks like there is uptake. Good article (but could of course be made up). Even with good progress, bitcoin will still be small when the peso hyperinflates. Only the people able and ready to act quickly can frontrun the demise of the peso.
June 26, 2014, 10:50:12 AM
Done properly there's a big advantage. Since you're effectively hire-purchasing a house, you cannot ever be in negative equity. Naturally, most banks don't like the idea of shifting liability onto themselves, hence the interest-driven model prevails elsewhere.
I am sure it's not quite as simple as that. At the least the "bank" will charge extra to cover their risk. Then your house could still be worth less than you paid for it when all is done. I bet there's some hefty penalty clause for early termination too.
"Properly" meaning according to the spirit of the law. Ijara mortgages tend to be slightly more expensive than regular ones, in any case - unless you are foreclosed, I imagine. I don't know the details, but they're not competitive financially with standard mortgages.
June 26, 2014, 10:49:57 AM
Interesting tidbit for many here:
"They make the obvious prediction that the Bitcoin will be sold for under-market value"
Are you guys going to be flaming the Bitstamp owners now?
Where do you get the 2 months from?
I understand that the 2 digit changes are just some rounding errors, but what about the 3 digit entry on June 3rd?
June 26, 2014, 10:49:24 AM
I am sure it's not quite as simple as that. At the least the "bank" will charge extra to cover their risk. Then your house could still be worth less than you paid for it when all is done. I bet there's some hefty penalty clause for early termination too.
http://www.islamicawakening.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=1291
Quote
If the home-buying client later decides that he can no longer afford the rental, both the HSBC and Ahli United `ijara contracts require that he or she must guarantee to repay the cash sum initially provided by the bank to fund the purchase of the property. In those cases where the property has to be sold to achieve this, the possibility arises that, if property prices have fallen in the meantime, the sale proceeds may not be sufficient to repay the financed amount. In this case, by requiring the client to make up any shortfall to the bank, the possibility of "negative equity" arises, a position in which the client owes more to the bank than the property is worth.
Clause 6.3 (d) of the United Bank of Kuwait `ijara agreement from 1998 provides an example of the way in which banks seek to protect themselves from capital loss. Here, the bank is allowed to sell the client's property in the event of default and to subtract such amounts as are necessary from both the proceeds of sale and the on-account payments made by the client in order to protect the bank from a loss on its investment.
Clause 6.3 (d) of the United Bank of Kuwait `ijara agreement from 1998 provides an example of the way in which banks seek to protect themselves from capital loss. Here, the bank is allowed to sell the client's property in the event of default and to subtract such amounts as are necessary from both the proceeds of sale and the on-account payments made by the client in order to protect the bank from a loss on its investment.
June 26, 2014, 10:49:12 AM
June 26, 2014, 10:48:19 AM
Will the winning bidders be announced publicly?
June 26, 2014, 10:47:59 AM
I don't expect the price to be released anytime soon, if ever. It'll probably be irrelevant for the purposes of market sentiment, that's why it is so astonishing to me that people are seriously debating this, but I won't say no to joining the fun.
Quoted for truth. Yeah, I'm starting to seriously dislike the "Speculation" subforum because the participants want to completely ignore reality in favor of some made up fantasy.
I'll probably be leaving it behind sometime soon, as it's usefulness has almost completely run it's course for me.
Edit: Oh, and I wasn't referring to you Blitz. I meant others on this sub that just want to flat out ignore that question, because it suits them to completely just ignore it and continue the silly debate ad nauseum.
June 26, 2014, 10:46:26 AM
Done properly there's a big advantage. Since you're effectively hire-purchasing a house, you cannot ever be in negative equity. Naturally, most banks don't like the idea of shifting liability onto themselves, hence the interest-driven model prevails elsewhere.
I am sure it's not quite as simple as that. At the least the "bank" will charge extra to cover their risk. Then your house could still be worth less than you paid for it when all is done. I bet there's some hefty penalty clause for early termination too.
June 26, 2014, 10:46:08 AM
So we're stuck at 569 until Friday then?
Not necessarily. If everybody agrees on that, someone will front-run it. When the actors agree on something, the market goes into another dimension. Know something first, act, wait for others to come to the same conclusion. You need to stay ahead of the market. (So when everybody knows this also, we move into yet another dimension...)
June 26, 2014, 10:45:16 AM
I think after the auction we prepare for a lunar landing!
June 26, 2014, 10:43:58 AM
I don't expect the price to be released anytime soon, if ever. It'll probably be irrelevant for the purposes of market sentiment, that's why it is so astonishing to me that people are seriously debating this, but I won't say no to joining the fun.
Again? Where did I avoid answering one of your questions? I'd like to do so now, sorry if I missed it.
June 26, 2014, 10:43:07 AM
Some of us, rather than cursing the dark, are trying to light candles, with varying degrees of success. It takes a pretty vigorous crap filter to glean anything useful here, but there is such as thing as exogenous input stimulating useful thought. By voicing opinions, members stimulate each other to think about aspects of the situation which they might otherwise neglect. If the stimulus is misleading, that is unfortunate, but a vigorous crapfilter should avoid most of that downside. The worst part is the time-sink aspect.
You may not read this. I know you don't like my monkey. The monkey is a metaphorical monkey, used to voice signals derived by means I do not wish to disclose accurately or justify rigorously. I find the signals useful, and it does not require any sort of faith in the monkey to observe its signals over time. I know that some members have benefited from awareness of the monkey's moods, as have I, otherwise your complaint would have sufficed for me to silence the monkey here. As a third-party reader I would accept the monkey as another source of stimulus for thought, no more and no less. I regard the other members of this forum much as I regard the magic monkey. They are a source of highly structured signal, which serves to stimulate thought.
Freedom requires possibilities. Our possibilities are limited by our awareness, oftentimes. Exogenous stimuli often serve to draw attention to those possibilities, and thereby compound our freedom.
You may not read this. I know you don't like my monkey. The monkey is a metaphorical monkey, used to voice signals derived by means I do not wish to disclose accurately or justify rigorously. I find the signals useful, and it does not require any sort of faith in the monkey to observe its signals over time. I know that some members have benefited from awareness of the monkey's moods, as have I, otherwise your complaint would have sufficed for me to silence the monkey here. As a third-party reader I would accept the monkey as another source of stimulus for thought, no more and no less. I regard the other members of this forum much as I regard the magic monkey. They are a source of highly structured signal, which serves to stimulate thought.
Freedom requires possibilities. Our possibilities are limited by our awareness, oftentimes. Exogenous stimuli often serve to draw attention to those possibilities, and thereby compound our freedom.
Often don't agree with what you write. With this, I do.
Me too. It is impossible to squelch trolls and bad information, the answer is to provide good information.
Jump to: