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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 29414. (Read 26609245 times)

hero member
Activity: 1036
Merit: 524
Indeed. How about if one replaces "US dollar" with "dollar"



I bought a pack of those, and I hand them out to people, to remind them of the value of a hard-earned dollar.

Every fiat currency in history has ended at zero.  That's the alternative future which Jorge prefers:  All of your savings, all of your labor, all of your power in this world, is to be converted into material wealth in the hands of your superiors, your masters, your owners.  

My great-grandparents used hard currency.  They were free.  My grandparents lived under the FRB.  They were perhaps 90% free.  My parents never saw gold circulate.  They were perhaps 75% free.   I saw the end of silver circulation.  I have been perhaps 50% free.   My daughter has never seen hard currency.  The excruciating trend is that she will be perhaps 25% free, that my grandchildren will only see plastic and digits, and will be nigh 100% enslaved.  

Bitcoin and the collapse inherent in exponential debt systems gives me hope that there is another possible future.  One in which, for a time, in a place, the boot will not come down on our faces, or the faces of our children.  People have given their lives for lesser hopes.

My opinion isn't popular here, but fiat currencies are backed by national governments. Isn't that worth more than lumps of conductive metals?
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1441
I was trying to think who the Fonz reminded me of...and then it hit me.. 

"more bad news"  Grin



Cheer up it might never happen.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas
Indeed. How about if one replaces "US dollar" with "dollar"



I bought a pack of those, and I hand them out to people, to remind them of the value of a hard-earned dollar.

Every fiat currency in history has ended at zero.  That's the alternative future which Jorge prefers:  All of your savings, all of your labor, all of your power in this world, is to be converted into material wealth in the hands of your superiors, your masters, your owners.  

My great-grandparents used hard currency.  They were free.  My grandparents lived under the FRB.  They were perhaps 90% free.  My parents never saw gold circulate.  They were perhaps 75% free.   I saw the end of silver circulation.  I have been perhaps 50% free.   My daughter has never seen hard currency.  The excruciating trend is that she will be perhaps 25% free, that my grandchildren will only see plastic and digits, and will be nigh 100% enslaved.  

Bitcoin and the collapse inherent in exponential debt systems gives me hope that there is another possible future.  One in which, for a time, in a place, the boot will not come down on our faces, or the faces of our children.  People have given their lives for lesser hopes.
hero member
Activity: 1036
Merit: 524
Ditto for the "network effect" and "first-player advantage" that were supposed to prevent the appearance of alternative coins.  

Supposed by whom?  Clearly these factors do not inhibit the creation of infinitely many worthless coins.  Nor do those worthless coins inhibit the aggregation of value to the Bitcoin economy.  
Or the myths about crypto-payments being untraceable and impossible for governments to restrict, tax, or regulate.
These are media myths, and have never been promulgated as such by any knowledgable members of bitcoin community, during the history of my involvement.  They have little enough bearing on the value of Bitcoin.
Anonymity is profoundly beneficial to those who need it, and of no import to those who do not.  
And, of course, a newbie who does not own any bitcoins will probably have a more dispassionate view of probabilities and possibilities than an old-timer who invested several years of work in the project, and owns a few thousand coins.
However, we know that you are not dispassionate in the least, as your extensive postings have proven.  You have an anti-Bitcoin agenda.  Pretending otherwise is disingenuous.
* I am not a libertarian.
So you say.  I think you are a libertarian, for your self, and a fascist, for others.  I doubt you even understand what "libertarian" means when you attempt to draw a contrast by saying
I do not trust governments, even those that I voted for; but I believe that they are essential, and should be democratized, opened, and held on a short leash, rather than abolished.

because libertarianism does not seek to abolish governments, make them autocratic or closed, or liberate them from restraint.
But, fortunately, I have no fear that bitcoin will do that.
I have hope that when banks and governments collapse in chaos, bitcoin will provide an independent anti-fragile means of promoting trade and well-being in their absence.  Indeed I am quite certain that it is an effective safety-net for us all in that regard. Bitcoin may yet save your life.  And you will be resentful, I suspect.
So I see absolutely zero chance that governments and banks will just sit there, sucking their thumbs and whining, while a small ill-coordinated band of nerds robs them of their powers and profits.  If that is what bitcoin means to you, prepare to be severely disappointed.

"governments"  and "banks"  are not malign monolithic conspiracies.  They are made of people doing their jobs and pursuing their agendas.  Your view is paranoid.  

So "governments"  and "banks" are valuable and efficient organisations....but they are going to collapse? I'm confused. Wink

I don't think the two are similar at all, perhaps its more a parasitic relationship.  The first tends to monolithic and run by people with no agenda doing the best they can while trying to get money from the second organisation which is completely driven by a single agenda: make more money.  Simplistic but hey.

But they will get out the guns out before they will allow the edifice to fall.  History shows us this.

Very long quotes are cumbersome.
legendary
Activity: 2380
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legendary
Activity: 2590
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Welt Am Draht
Here's an interesting nugget from /r/bitcoinmarkets



I was just looking at the one week charts and noticed we've hit 6 consecutive weeks in the red, this hasn't happened since 2011 when it dropped from $30 to $1.

If Gox keeps its bullshit up we could hit a record 7 red weeks which would be the first time in Bitcoins history! WOOO
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1441
More bad news:

http://www.coindesk.com/documents-goldman-sachs-discussing-bitcoin/

"New York-based global investment banking giant Goldman Sachs has completed an initial assessment of digital currencies that concluded they are currently too volatile for serious investors."

lol what?? that doesnt make sense

Sure it does. It means that they're not currently "too big to fail" and investors be bailed out with wealth stolen from the taxpayer. Keep up.

It's not a good Wall Street investment until losses are socialized.

Well said.

 

Also well said


And if I your kneecaps were replaced by fish, you'd have a hard time standing up as well.  It doesn't matter, however, because you stand on kneecaps.  There are infintely many Dogecoin.  If anything that only increases the value of Bitcoin, as you have to acquire Bitcoin in order to buy Dogecoin.  The absurdity of your argument is manifest by its own conclusion:  Since there are infinitely many cryptocoins, and this does not in fact render Bitcoin worthless, the argument that the existence of infinitely many cryptocoins renders Bitcoin worthless is a fallacious argument, of no more relevance than the imaginary fish which seek to render you paralegic.

legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k

And if I your kneecaps were replaced by fish, you'd have a hard time standing up as well.  It doesn't matter, however, because you stand on kneecaps.  There are infintely many Dogecoin.  If anything that only increases the value of Bitcoin, as you have to acquire Bitcoin in order to buy Dogecoin.  The absurdity of your argument is manifest by its own conclusion:  Since there are infinitely many cryptocoins, and this does not in fact render Bitcoin worthless, the argument that the existence of infinitely many cryptocoins renders Bitcoin worthless is a fallacious argument, of no more relevance than the imaginary fish which seek to render you paralegic.


Indeed. How about if one replaces "US dollar" with "dollar"

legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
More bad news:

http://www.coindesk.com/documents-goldman-sachs-discussing-bitcoin/

"New York-based global investment banking giant Goldman Sachs has completed an initial assessment of digital currencies that concluded they are currently too volatile for serious investors."

lol what?? that doesnt make sense

Sure it does. It means that they're not currently "too big to fail" and investors be bailed out with wealth stolen from the taxpayer. Keep up.

It's not a good Wall Street investment until losses are socialized.
member
Activity: 93
Merit: 10
....

I've appreciated reading your thoughts over the past few months and I do hope you stay around.  It is helpful to learn the viewpoints of people that haven't been won-over by bitcoin.

Just one question:

You must admit that nobody can foresee the future with perfect clarity.  In 2018, bitcoin could be a dominant world currency, it could be an academic curiosity of a past failed experiment, or it could be something in between.  My question is how do you expect you'd feel if bitcoin is successful beyond all of our wildest hopes?  Will you look back, shrug, and say "oh well"?  Or will you be disappointed that some mental obstinance prevented you from hedging with 2 BTC just in case?

  

Quoted because I would also like to know your answer
hero member
Activity: 1036
Merit: 524
AH HA!
clearly oversold

what do you say to that Mr IHaveNoBitcoins.  Cheesy
I say that I was somewhat embarassed by the failed prediction, but I will stubbornly carry on until the Chinese learn to pay attention to my postings.  Wink


Traditional market trends don't mostly apply with cryptocurrencies. Remember, that bitcoin trading is done on unregulated exchanges, meaning that there is no regulation to stop an exchange owner from doing insider trading. Meaning that the price is probably set buy guys, who know the plans and routines of everyone else. The best way to speculate the future is to see, what is the most profitable way for the market owners. Trying to use traditional trends will only get you trapped more, then it will give you success.
Yeah. Markets normally fluctuate on sentiment, or a general change in trust. A market that spikes up and down >50% daily based on announcements is unhealthy and immature.
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
banned but not broken
AH HA!
clearly oversold

what do you say to that Mr IHaveNoBitcoins.  Cheesy
I say that I was somewhat embarassed by the failed prediction, but I will stubbornly carry on until the Chinese learn to pay attention to my postings.  Wink


Traditional market trends don't mostly apply with cryptocurrencies. Remember, that bitcoin trading is done on unregulated exchanges, meaning that there is no regulation to stop an exchange owner from doing insider trading. Meaning that the price is probably set buy guys, who know the plans and routines of everyone else. The best way to speculate the future is to see, what is the most profitable way for the market owners. Trying to use traditional trends will only get you trapped more, then it will give you success.
legendary
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1028
Duelbits.com
http://www.cryptoave.com launched by DigitalCoin dev.

DGC/ARG/SRC/BTC/LTC/PPC fiat exchange.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
AH HA!
clearly oversold

what do you say to that Mr IHaveNoBitcoins.  Cheesy
I say that I was somewhat embarassed by the failed prediction, but I will stubbornly carry on until the Chinese learn to pay attention to my postings.  Wink

I think most of your predictions would have been close, I was tagging on a prediction usually higher than yours Cheesy but both times I think FUD hit the markets and it rippled hard, well btc withdrawals we're halted Cheesy lol

KFR
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Per ardua ad luna
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
AH HA!
clearly oversold

what do you say to that Mr IHaveNoBitcoins.  Cheesy
I say that I was somewhat embarassed by the failed prediction, but I will stubbornly carry on until the Chinese learn to pay attention to my postings.  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas
* Being a "newbie" (who has been poking around for only three months, instead of all of three years) has its advantages, methinks.  It seems that some people got convinced early on of certain "truths" by arguments that seemed strong at the time, but have lost their weight in the last six months.

Lost their weight or merely their popularity?

Quote
 For example, the "demand/supply formula", by which one used to "prove" that bitcoins will one day be extremely valuable, has been considerably weakened in the last six months by the existence and persistence of other crypto-coins.  If one replaces "bitcoin" by "crypto-coin" in the argument, the denominator becomes infinity, and the resulting price is zero.

And if I your kneecaps were replaced by fish, you'd have a hard time standing up as well.  It doesn't matter, however, because you stand on kneecaps.  There are infintely many Dogecoin.  If anything that only increases the value of Bitcoin, as you have to acquire Bitcoin in order to buy Dogecoin.  The absurdity of your argument is manifest by its own conclusion:  Since there are infinitely many cryptocoins, and this does not in fact render Bitcoin worthless, the argument that the existence of infinitely many cryptocoins renders Bitcoin worthless is a fallacious argument, of no more relevance than the imaginary fish which seek to render you paralegic.

If you are refering to Fisher's quantity theory of money, it is an inescapable law, and remains profoundly compelling.  I can't imagine on what basis you could honestly think otherwise, unless you were deluded by an agenda.  The bitcoin economy continues to grow, and the value of bitcoin continues to grow with it.

Quote
 Ditto for the "network effect" and "first-player advantage" that were supposed to prevent the appearance of alternative coins.  

Supposed by whom?  Clearly these factors do not inhibit the creation of infinitely many worthless coins.  Nor do those worthless coins inhibit the aggregation of value to the Bitcoin economy.  

Quote
Or the myths about crypto-payments being untraceable and impossible for governments to restrict, tax, or regulate.

These are media myths, and have never been promulgated as such by any knowledgable members of bitcoin community, during the history of my involvement.  They have little enough bearing on the value of Bitcoin.  Indeed the fact that taxes are imposed on fiat is often used as an argument in favor of the value of fiat.  (Hopefully we can agree that it is a specious argument.)

Quote
Methinks that Silk Road and China disproved those claims in the clearest possible way --- yet there are still people who not only repeat them, but see them as the most important advantages of crypto-coins.

All Silk Road demonstrated was that poor VPN hygiene makes you traceable.  All China demonstrated was that communist totalitarian states will repress free enterprise if it threatens their total control over the population.  

Although anonymity is not inherent in cryptographic currency, if you use any form of currency suitably, you can transact anonymously.  That is a consequence of what we understand by "currency".    What crypto adds as currency is the ability to transact instantly anywhere in the world at vanishing cost.

Anonymous transactions will be facilitated by crypto when someone builds a suitable application for that purpose.  For now, it's possible but not easy to transact anonymously, and bitcoin doesn't really change the picture relative to paper currency in that regard.

Anonymity is profoundly beneficial to those who need it, and of no import to those who do not.  This has always been true in the Bitcoin economy and remains true today.

Quote
 Another random example of this "newbie's advantage", I think, is being open minded about the role of the Chinese exchanges (and Chinese bank holidays, and, yes, even Chinese sleep hours) in determining the market price of bitcoin -- a possibility that some old-timers apparently won't even discuss, perhaps for sentimental or political reasons.

Let me know when you learn something useful.

Quote
 And, of course, a newbie who does not own any bitcoins will probably have a more dispassionate view of probabilities and possibilities than an old-timer who invested several years of work in the project, and owns a few thousand coins.

However, we know that you are not dispassionate in the least, as your extensive postings have proven.  You have an anti-Bitcoin agenda.  Pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

Quote
* I am not a libertarian.

So you say.  I think you are a libertarian, for your self, and a fascist, for others.  I doubt you even understand what "libertarian" means when you attempt to draw a contrast by saying

Quote
I do not trust governments, even those that I voted for; but I believe that they are essential, and should be democratized, opened, and held on a short leash, rather than abolished.

because libertarianism does not seek to abolish governments, make them autocratic or closed, or liberate them from restraint.

Quote
 
But, fortunately, I have no fear that bitcoin will do that.

I have hope that when banks and governments collapse in chaos, bitcoin will provide an independent anti-fragile means of promoting trade and well-being in their absence.  Indeed I am quite certain that it is an effective safety-net for us all in that regard.  Bitcoin may yet save your life.  And you will be resentful, I suspect.

Quote
...technological solution will be banished...

Not everyone is so stupid as to outlaw fire, the wheel, double-entry accounting, the telephone, the internet, and magnetic recording.  You can't stop the signal.  Once the idea is out, the technology exists, and those who lever it will always out-compete and destroy those who resist it.

Quote
 So I see absolutely zero chance that governments and banks will just sit there, sucking their thumbs and whining, while a small ill-coordinated band of nerds robs them of their powers and profits.  If that is what bitcoin means to you, prepare to be severely disappointed.

"governments"  and "banks"  are not malign monolithic conspiracies.  They are made of people doing their jobs and pursuing their agendas.  Your view is paranoid.  


legendary
Activity: 2338
Merit: 1035
More bad news:

http://www.coindesk.com/documents-goldman-sachs-discussing-bitcoin/

"New York-based global investment banking giant Goldman Sachs has completed an initial assessment of digital currencies that concluded they are currently too volatile for serious investors."

lol what?? that doesnt make sense
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner






AH HA!
clearly oversold

what do you say to that Mr IHaveNoBitcoins.

 Cheesy
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