Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 29517.

billyjoeallen

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Hide your women

Quote from: Ivanhoe on February 19, 2014, 11:10:48 AM

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/61200 Interesting read if you have time.

Banking doesn't need a conspiracy. Banking is an open conspiracy, hidden only by complexity. It is ultimately held together only by the threat of force levied at the tax livestock (citizens) of the world governments. It's backed by the point of a gun. Repeal legal tender laws and it would collapse overnight.

oda.krell

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Quote from: Peter R on February 19, 2014, 11:22:58 AM

In other meta news: with the change to the newbie policy, we've seen a great increase in genuinely trollish/FUD threads and a decrease in high-quality posts. I hope that the forum administrators will revisit their policies, perhaps even disallowing members below a certain activity level from starting threads.

100% agreement.

I've argue in this thread to set a 'minimum activity level' per sub-board, so that you e.g. had to "earn" some activity points first in a 'newbie' forum, basically: a slight modification of the previous "newbie hell" system, but allowing different boards to set different levels of what they consider newbies. Didn't get picked up (or even responded to) by theymos, though :/

Richy_T

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Quote from: Peter R on February 19, 2014, 11:22:58 AM

So that bitcoin can eventually run him over LOL.

FTFY. Choo choo.

Richy_T

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Quote from: oda.krell on February 19, 2014, 11:13:43 AM

Plus, you ignore one thing: it's good to have a genuine "bear" who doesn't resort to idiotic FUD posts and trolling. Say what you want, but jorge *argues* for this (bearish) position, even if you don't agree with his arguments in the end.

I don't mind a good bear. Even some of the trolls are worth a read. It just rubs be the wrong way when someone comes in and doesn't give "Why won't (debunked reason X) affect the price/adoption/whatever of Bitcoin?" but puts it in the form of "I am an expert (i.e. too important to actually do any reading on the subject) and (debunked reason X) means bitcoin will fail and you are all stupid. And your little dog too"

billyjoeallen

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Hide your women

Bitcoin is the world's first Distributed Autonomous Corporation. We who hold bitcoins are shareholders. When we buy bitcoin, the money goes either directly or indirectly to the miners (the employees) who secure the network. This is in no way a Ponzi or pyramid scheme. It's an extremely efficient corporation where we don't have to pay management anything because management is simply code. Open source code- Ultimate transparency.

The mission of the corporation is to provide a conduit of exchange and to maintain a ledger of all transactions on that conduit.

Jorge doesn't just misunderstand Bitcoin. He misunderstands money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value

Peter R

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Quote from: oda.krell on February 19, 2014, 11:13:43 AM

Plus, you ignore one thing: it's good to have a genuine "bear" who doesn't resort to idiotic FUD posts and trolling. Say what you want, but jorge *argues* for this (bearish) position, even if you don't agree with his arguments in the end.

+1

Jorge is an intelligent individual who makes a meaningful contribution here. I hope that he sticks around! So that bitcoin can eventually win him over LOL.

In other meta news: with the change to the newbie policy, we've seen a great increase in genuinely trollish/FUD threads and a decrease in high-quality posts. I hope that the forum administrators will revisit their policies, perhaps even disallowing members below a certain activity level from starting threads.

aminorex

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Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: aminorex on February 19, 2014, 09:12:46 AM

I will no longer consider you a delusional hypocrite.

I think that's rather harsh and ad hominem.

That's a misleading use of ad hominem in my view, contrary to ordinary language use. I intended to be vigorous. I think it is delusional to consider the virtual nature of bitcoin to damn it and to propagandize to that effect, and hypocritical to do so while winking in complicity with a systematic method of robbing and enslaving every orphan and widow by means of debt money. If the reality is a harsh one, I hope I can portray it accurately.

That said, I too appreciate Jorge's contribution to the form and consider him a man of wealth and taste. That makes his ideas all the more perniciously misleading.

Richy_T

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Quote from: KeyserSoze on February 19, 2014, 10:37:50 AM

Getting tougher to see a good end here. This is basically skipping town. I mean, if they were going to pull through would they not realize that moving their office address in the middle of this fiasco is a horrible PR move? I guess if we want to make an excuse, they have been getting "near death threats" and people are beginning to go to their office to challenge them. But.... shutting down operations and moving doesn't look good at all.

I don't doubt that they have been getting real death threats. Possibly even Mark found a mouse's head in his frappuccino

oda.krell

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Quote from: Richy_T on February 19, 2014, 11:03:02 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: aminorex on February 19, 2014, 09:12:46 AM

I will no longer consider you a delusional hypocrite.

I think that's rather harsh and ad hominem.

The last few pages have been some of the most interesting and enlightening I've ever seen on this thread and I commend Jorge for being (sincerely) provocative...we need more "Po" and less linear, uniformed thinking.

His posts are all rehashes of old complaints that have been debunked ad-nauseum. There are some genuine criticisms of Bitcoin to be made (though I have heard most of those already) and undoubtedly a few new ones yet to see the light of day. This "academic" is just posting like a noob. It borders on the trollish but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and put it down to arrogance.

Some are, as you call it, already debunked rehashes, like the 'Ponzi' accusation, others are not, like "have we reached a market saturation point (for now)".

Plus, you ignore one thing: it's good to have a genuine "bear" who doesn't resort to idiotic FUD posts and trolling. Say what you want, but jorge *argues* for this (bearish) position, even if you don't agree with his arguments in the end.

Ivanhoe

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http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/61200 Interesting read if you have time.

Richy_T

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Quote from: JorgeStolfi on February 19, 2014, 10:19:48 AM

I hate banks and I am aware that the world's financial system is a humongous runaway Ponzi scheme (in the strict sense of the word). You will find that among my tweets.

But I do not see how cryptocoins will save us from it. They too are fiat money, or rather wannabe fiat money for now. Since one cannot prevent new coins from being started, they will be inflationary too. New cryptos will be created for the same reason that governments print more money and banks fabricate credit withou assets: because it makes the creator richer at the expense of the users.

And "selling" bitcoin as a safe hedge against inflation, at the present time, makes no sense at all.

Key difference: You have no choice but to use government money (well, not completely true anymore). You have the choice not to use the scamcoins. There may be a crypto-coin which pushes out Bitcoin, there may eventually be several different crypto coins which fill different niches, possibly some even inflationary but the presence of alt-coins does not imply inflation in-and-of itself since they are not fungible.

ChartBuddy

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Explanation

Richy_T

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: aminorex on February 19, 2014, 09:12:46 AM

I will no longer consider you a delusional hypocrite.

I think that's rather harsh and ad hominem.

The last few pages have been some of the most interesting and enlightening I've ever seen on this thread and I commend Jorge for being (sincerely) provocative...we need more "Po" and less linear, uniformed thinking.

His posts are all rehashes of old complaints that have been debunked ad-nauseum. There are some genuine criticisms of Bitcoin to be made (though I have heard most of those already) and undoubtedly a few new ones yet to see the light of day. This "academic" is just posting like a noob. It borders on the trollish but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and put it down to arrogance.

dreamspark

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A side note on the office move BTW.

Apparently they have had this office for a while and used use it for whatever reason.

Some people are speculating that they are being overwhelmed with post at the current offices and also protestors are affecting other businesses within the block. It would make sense if the office owner had taken steps to ask gox to attempt to mitigate this.

soullyG

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Decentralize everything

Quote from: oda.krell on February 19, 2014, 10:46:11 AM

Quote from: JorgeStolfi on February 19, 2014, 10:41:44 AM

Quote from: KeyserSoze on February 19, 2014, 10:21:45 AM

I don't think his demeanor while posting here has been the same as on Twitter which makes me wonder if he thought he was concealing his disdain.

I have not concealed my views, but what would be the point of insisting on them in this forum? On twitter, my audience (only 2000, most of them "dead" probably) is only those people who choose to read my tweets; here it is not. I am not here to troll, pick fights, or humiliate anyone.

I've said it before, I'll say it one more time in here: I disagree with large parts of your arguments, but I'm glad you post in here. The quality of your posts is still substantially higher than the average on here, so I'm interested in reading them.

+1

I'm sure there are many lurkers (like me) who enjoy Jorge's (and others) posts, but don't get the chance to say so. Even if he is the voice of "dissent" Wink

One thing I would like to see less of are the personal attacks and poop slinging - we're all here to learn and explore this crazy new technology called Bitcoin, so let's just enjoy the ride.. wherever it may take us.. Grin

Richy_T

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Quote from: Mota on February 19, 2014, 06:54:48 AM

What you are talking about is simply not true. Of course, bitcoin is a zero sum game - BUT so is every other kind of higher value asset: Gold, Diamonds and even luxury cars.

Even this is not true. Trades are typically made because each party values what they are receiving more than what they are parting with. Hence non-zero sum. Of course, there are scenarios where either party may be mislead or deluded which negate this but these will tend to be fewer and rare.

Of course, if one assumes that Bitcoin brings no actual value to the table and is purely a speculative investment then it applies but it is not. I won't bore everyone with the reasons (blockchain, distributed etc) because that has been done to death many, many times over and anyone who comes into this thread who hasn't educated themselves on the subject should be ashamed. Triply so if they are supposed to be some kind of academic.

oda.krell

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Quote from: JorgeStolfi on February 19, 2014, 10:41:44 AM

Quote from: KeyserSoze on February 19, 2014, 10:21:45 AM

I don't think his demeanor while posting here has been the same as on Twitter which makes me wonder if he thought he was concealing his disdain.

I have not concealed my views, but what would be the point of insisting on them in this forum? On twitter, my audience (only 2000, most of them "dead" probably) is only those people who choose to read my tweets; here it is not. I am not here to troll, pick fights, or humiliate anyone.

I've said it before, I'll say it one more time in here: I disagree with large parts of your arguments, but I'm glad you post in here. The quality of your posts is still substantially higher than the average on here, so I'm interested in reading them.

JorgeStolfi

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Quote from: KeyserSoze on February 19, 2014, 10:21:45 AM

I don't think his demeanor while posting here has been the same as on Twitter which makes me wonder if he thought he was concealing his disdain.

I have not concealed my views, but what would be the point of insisting on them in this forum? On twitter, my audience (only 2000, most of them "dead" probably) is only those people who choose to read my tweets; here it is not. I am not here to troll, pick fights, or humiliate anyone.

D05GTO

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Quote from: JorgeStolfi on February 19, 2014, 10:19:48 AM

Quote from: aminorex on February 19, 2014, 09:12:46 AM

You should realize that the same can be said of fiat. [ ... ] When you start to expend a proportionately larger effort in denouncing the ponzi scheme which is fiat,

I hate banks and I am aware that the world's financial system is a humongous runaway Ponzi scheme (in the strict sense of the word). You will find that among my tweets.

But I do not see how cryptocoins will save us from it. They too are fiat money, or rather wannabe fiat money for now. Since one cannot prevent new coins from being started, they will be inflationary too. New cryptos will be created for the same reason that governments print more money and banks fabricate credit withou assets: because it makes the creator richer at the expense of the users.

And "selling" bitcoin as a safe hedge against inflation, at the present time, makes no sense at all.

Yes, you can't prevent new coins being created but everyone has a choice rather to use it or not. Now when the Fed Reserve prints out another few hundred billion for their buddies, no one has a choice. It's directly stealing (hidden tax) from everyone that holds USD.

lemonte

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Quote from: KeyserSoze on February 19, 2014, 10:37:50 AM

Quote from: seljo on February 19, 2014, 05:35:48 AM

Quote from: solex on February 19, 2014, 05:01:18 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Well a quick search for Cerulean Tower shows its a swanky hotel in Tokyo which also has office space.
http://www.wego.com.au/hotels/japan/tokyo/cerulean-tower-tokyu-hotel-2232

Hmm, virtual offices!
http://www.executivecentre.com/virtual_offices/faq

They are gone. Grin

If they were going to pull through would they not realize that moving their office address in the middle of this fiasco is a horrible PR move?

I thought the same, regardless of what happens tomorrow. Just show's how poor the management/ communication etc is at Gox. Imagine the whole community pointing at you asking questions about your financials and you then putting out a press release to say you were moving address..

What a Wally!!

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