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Topic: Want to pay NO income tax? Cut welfare. - page 2. (Read 10070 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 30, 2012, 08:27:42 PM
#67
You still haven't logically connected automation and poverty.

only like a million times. how do you distribute wealth without work?
You don't. But good news: work ≠ production. Does the sales clerk at the grocery store produce anything? Are they working?

You do realize that this song has been sung before, yes?

The Curse of Machinery (Chapter 7 of Economics in One Lesson)

yeah, very long text.
does it address finite resources at some point?
because thats really the key to the argument. in the past (industrial era etc.), resources havent been a problem.
Read it and find out. Trust me, you will be better for the experience. In fact, read the whole book. You will be exponentially better informed. If you read one text on economics in your lifetime, this is it.
hero member
Activity: 991
Merit: 1011
December 30, 2012, 08:17:45 PM
#66
You still haven't logically connected automation and poverty.

only like a million times. how do you distribute wealth without work?

Quote
You do realize that this song has been sung before, yes?

The Curse of Machinery (Chapter 7 of Economics in One Lesson)

yeah, very long text.
does it address finite resources at some point?
because thats really the key to the argument. in the past (industrial era etc.), resources havent been a problem.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 30, 2012, 06:22:03 PM
#65
eventually, you just run out of services you can offer. unless, instead of increasing quantity you increase quality, which, for the most part, means better educated service personnel.

So, your fear is that automation will take all jobs except those that need the most education, do I understand that correctly?

what i fear is that current societies will only address the symptoms as long as it is possible to maintain the illusion that work for everyone is an option.
what i fear is that, if the problem is tackled to late, unequality, poverty and civil unrest will already have grown to the point where rational debate and a slow transformation of a society is no longer possible.

You still haven't logically connected automation and poverty. You do realize that this song has been sung before, yes?

The Curse of Machinery (Chapter 7 of Economics in One Lesson)
hero member
Activity: 991
Merit: 1011
December 30, 2012, 06:12:55 PM
#64
eventually, you just run out of services you can offer. unless, instead of increasing quantity you increase quality, which, for the most part, means better educated service personnel.

So, your fear is that automation will take all jobs except those that need the most education, do I understand that correctly?

what i fear is that current societies will only address the symptoms as long as it is possible to maintain the illusion that work for everyone is an option.
what i fear is that, if the problem is tackled to late, unequality, poverty and civil unrest will already have grown to the point where rational debate and a slow transformation of a society is no longer possible.

automation will take jobs, period. i can only predict to some extent what jobs that will be, and in what order. easy example: pretty much everything that has to do with transportation and logistics is likely to vanish within the next few decades.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 30, 2012, 05:10:31 PM
#63
eventually, you just run out of services you can offer. unless, instead of increasing quantity you increase quality, which, for the most part, means better educated service personnel.

So, your fear is that automation will take all jobs except those that need the most education, do I understand that correctly?
hero member
Activity: 991
Merit: 1011
December 30, 2012, 05:04:41 PM
#62
I don't think you quite understand how to do a logical progression. Let's try again.

Technology is constantly increasing each individual's productivity. Therefore, it follows that:

Each individual will be able to produce more in less time. Therefore, it follows that:

There will be less workers needed to produce the same amount of products. Therefore, it follows that:

Less workers will be trained to produce products. Therefore, it follows that:

If people want to work, they will have to find something to do other than production. Therefore, it follows that:

you mistake appearance for function. just because you make it look formal doesnt mean its correct. specifically, without arguing with limited resources, less producing workers is no consequence of higher efficiency.

The economy will shift largely from a manufacturing one to a service economy.

This is already being seen in industrialized nations. Your bogeyman is nonexistent. Not every job is one that produces something, some, perhaps even most, are services, such as daycare, tech support, or sales.


my bogeyman is very much alive. service economy is nothing new, its just that services are a little more complicated to automate than production. but that doesnt mean service economy is the future, it just means its a little less ancient history than production economy. most services either require a good education or are at risk of becoming obsolete. daycare, medical care and similar services are one of the very few exceptions.

eventually, you just run out of services you can offer. unless, instead of increasing quantity you increase quality, which, for the most part, means better educated service personnel.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 30, 2012, 03:55:55 PM
#61
I don't know about you, but I don't see that as a problem. Do me a favor. Logic through, step by step, how, exactly, that's a problem.
I'll start you off:

Technology is constantly increasing each individual's productivity. Therefore, it follows that:

with limited worldwide resources and resources being a necessary part of production, worldwide productivity has, even without considering demand at all, an upper limit. therefore, it is, at some point, impossible, to let everybody work at maximum productivity. since it is inefficient to teach double the amount of workers and let them work half-time, work will eventually be done by few people working full time.
to avoid that you can either:
- let a society be deliberately inefficient, giving everyone work
- find a way to distribute wealth without the necessity for work

both of which your prefered society cannot accomplish. or, for that matter, any existing one i know of.
so, increasing productivity is not a problem by itself. the problem is that we dont have a good way to deal with its consequences.
I don't think you quite understand how to do a logical progression. Let's try again.

Technology is constantly increasing each individual's productivity. Therefore, it follows that:
Each individual will be able to produce more in less time. Therefore, it follows that:

There will be less workers needed to produce the same amount of products. Therefore, it follows that:

Less workers will be trained to produce products. Therefore, it follows that:

If people want to work, they will have to find something to do other than production. Therefore, it follows that:

The economy will shift largely from a manufacturing one to a service economy.

This is already being seen in industrialized nations. Your bogeyman is nonexistent. Not every job is one that produces something, some, perhaps even most, are services, such as daycare, tech support, or sales.
hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 514
December 30, 2012, 03:52:11 PM
#60
I don't know about you, but I don't see that as a problem. Do me a favor. Logic through, step by step, how, exactly, that's a problem.
I'll start you off:

Technology is constantly increasing each individual's productivity. Therefore, it follows that:
In areas where demand is lower than the supply you need less people for production.
(milk, pants, toilet paper, pizza, etc)
Products will become cheaper so that the people who still have a job don't have to pay as much to buy the products.
The saved money will instead go to charity to support the unemployed people.
hero member
Activity: 991
Merit: 1011
December 30, 2012, 03:43:04 PM
#59
I don't know about you, but I don't see that as a problem. Do me a favor. Logic through, step by step, how, exactly, that's a problem.
I'll start you off:

Technology is constantly increasing each individual's productivity. Therefore, it follows that:

with limited worldwide resources and resources being a necessary part of production, worldwide productivity has, even without considering demand at all, an upper limit. therefore, it is, at some point, impossible, to let everybody work at maximum productivity. since it is inefficient to teach double the amount of workers and let them work half-time, work will eventually be done by few people working full time.
to avoid that you can either:
- let a society be deliberately inefficient, giving everyone work
- find a way to distribute wealth without the necessity for work

both of which your prefered society cannot accomplish. or, for that matter, any existing one i know of.
so, increasing productivity is not a problem by itself. the problem is that we dont have a good way to deal with its consequences.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 30, 2012, 03:26:12 PM
#58
Ever think that a degree in "women's studies" is not very conducive to a productive career? Ever think that maybe, just maybe, not everyone needs a college education? Ever think that one of the best jobs for a single mom is taking care of other people's kids? Ever think that the licensing requirements and regulations are getting in the way of people doing just that? Ever think that minimum wage is reducing the number of available jobs? Ever think that your "solutions" are part of the problem?

the "problem" is ever increasing productivity.



I don't know about you, but I don't see that as a problem. Do me a favor. Logic through, step by step, how, exactly, that's a problem.
I'll start you off:

Technology is constantly increasing each individual's productivity. Therefore, it follows that:
hero member
Activity: 991
Merit: 1011
December 30, 2012, 03:12:29 PM
#57
Ever think that a degree in "women's studies" is not very conducive to a productive career? Ever think that maybe, just maybe, not everyone needs a college education? Ever think that one of the best jobs for a single mom is taking care of other people's kids? Ever think that the licensing requirements and regulations are getting in the way of people doing just that? Ever think that minimum wage is reducing the number of available jobs? Ever think that your "solutions" are part of the problem?

the "problem" is ever increasing productivity. just because people get paid less doesnt mean there is more work to do. this goes especially for jobs not requiring high-level education.
your whole idea of a society is based on people earning their livelihood through work, which is not realistic in the present and will become completely absurd in the foreseeable future.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 30, 2012, 02:43:26 PM
#56
Without welfare, students will have to work there way through uni, sick people will die or depend on charity donations, single mothers and the poor will end up homeless and on the street, crime will increase, and the gap between the rich and poor will become even greater.

agree sadly..

Without welfare, students would have to get loans and work to pay them off, sick people will have to rely on their insurance, single mothers and the poor will have to get jobs, crime will decrease, and the size of the middle class will increase.

yeah right, because banks give loans to lower class students, sick people dont get fucked by insurance lawyers, everybody wants to employ single moms, millions of jobs will just magically appear out of thin air, people without any support from society would never resort to crime as a means of survival and work is so much better at redistributing money than interest is...

i think this is a perfectly valid worldview - as long as you are not older than 16.

Ever think that a degree in "women's studies" is not very conducive to a productive career? Ever think that maybe, just maybe, not everyone needs a college education? Ever think that one of the best jobs for a single mom is taking care of other people's kids? Ever think that the licensing requirements and regulations are getting in the way of people doing just that? Ever think that minimum wage is reducing the number of available jobs? Ever think that your "solutions" are part of the problem?
hero member
Activity: 991
Merit: 1011
December 30, 2012, 02:35:00 PM
#55
Without welfare, students will have to work there way through uni, sick people will die or depend on charity donations, single mothers and the poor will end up homeless and on the street, crime will increase, and the gap between the rich and poor will become even greater.

agree sadly..

Without welfare, students would have to get loans and work to pay them off, sick people will have to rely on their insurance, single mothers and the poor will have to get jobs, crime will decrease, and the size of the middle class will increase.

yeah right, because banks give loans to lower class students, sick people dont get fucked by insurance lawyers, everybody wants to employ single moms, millions of jobs will just magically appear out of thin air, people without any support from society would never resort to crime as a means of survival and work is so much better at redistributing money than interest is...

i think this is a perfectly valid worldview - as long as you are not older than 16.


hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 30, 2012, 01:33:06 PM
#54
Without welfare, students will have to work there way through uni, sick people will die or depend on charity donations, single mothers and the poor will end up homeless and on the street, crime will increase, and the gap between the rich and poor will become even greater.

agree sadly..

Without welfare, students would have to get loans and work to pay them off, sick people will have to rely on their insurance, single mothers and the poor will have to get jobs, crime will decrease, and the size of the middle class will increase.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1000
December 30, 2012, 09:43:38 AM
#53
People keep saying that sort of thing but I never actually see any proper evidence for that sort of thing, forgetting of course the fact that one of the main reason the gap between the rich and poor is so high is because of inflation rather than any cuts to welfare, if you had a government system without debt or money printing then a welfare system could actually work but unfortunately I see a lot of evidence that while welfare is intended to help people it often causes a huge number of problems.

On the opposite end of the scale you also have charities and ironically I saw Ron Paul healthcare debate video where there was a news segment before which actually talked about how people like doctors without borders couldn't give people free healthcare all on their own because of state laws. This is another thing I hate about political debate where often an opposite side on a debate uses hypothetical threats and fear mongering to try and make their points rather than facts.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
December 30, 2012, 09:21:27 AM
#52
Without welfare, students will have to work there way through uni, sick people will die or depend on charity donations, single mothers and the poor will end up homeless and on the street, crime will increase, and the gap between the rich and poor will become even greater.

agree sadly..
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004
December 28, 2012, 09:24:43 AM
#51
I think you are overestimating the number of people willing to spend 20% of their income for charity.

I think you are overestimating the amount of money that would actually be needed.

Simple math shows that charity dollars outperform tax dollars in helping the poor by 233.33%.

http://nomorecages.com/2012/12/16/inconvenient-facts-part-1.aspx

Also people will help in different ways, some that cost them little or no money at all.  Some people can give an unemployed friend/relative an unused ROOM and food from the kitchen.  In the real world, made at home food does not cost much especially incrementally (if you are cooking for several already).  What would cost the state $2000+ a month (unemployment+the overhead of giving it) might cost a friend/family member $200. 
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
December 28, 2012, 08:58:50 AM
#50
I think you are overestimating the number of people willing to spend 20% of their income for charity.
This is not 20%.. Most people in australia pay something like 35% in income taxes.
Adding in all the taxes, most Americans pay considerably more. One number I saw placed it close to 50%.

Keep in mind that those figures vary wildly depending on what you purchase. I'm up north so I'm not too familiar with you guys' tax and levy structure, but if you want to know you almost absolutely need to crunch the numbers yourself. Quite an interesting exercise too, IMHO, but then again I'm one of those weird people in accounting that likes their job.

I ran the numbers for a couple of years, and my high score is nearly 80%, but that was a weird year.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
December 27, 2012, 03:01:24 PM
#49
I think you are overestimating the number of people willing to spend 20% of their income for charity.
This is not 20%.. Most people in australia pay something like 35% in income taxes.
Adding in all the taxes, most Americans pay considerably more. One number I saw placed it close to 50%.
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
December 26, 2012, 07:28:41 AM
#48
I think you are overestimating the number of people willing to spend 20% of their income for charity.
This is not 20%.. Most people in australia pay something like 35% in income taxes.
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