Warning: Bitcoin4Cash trades cancelled! Won't do business with Madhatter again. - page 4.

dissipate

sr. member

Activity: 288

Merit: 251

Quote from: lonestranger on May 16, 2011, 07:43:51 PM

Quote from: dissipate on May 16, 2011, 06:36:05 PM

I'm in California and I did a locked in rate transaction with bitcoin4cash at $1.44. It took about 2 weeks for bitcoin4cash to receive my cash and I received all of my coins at $6+.

Are you saying he gave you the higher rate even though you locked way low at $1.44? If so, that would be heroic of him.

He honored the contract to give me the fixed amount of bitcoins I purchased at the locked in rate, so yes.

unk

member

Activity: 84

Merit: 10

judging from what people are saying, though, his strategy wasn't functionally market-neutral, because he would not allow himself to lose money if the price rose. it's like he gave himself a bailout.

refunding money isn't sufficient in transactions that hedge risk, like (basically) all financial transactions. contract lawyers and economists have the notion of 'expectation value', upon which the efficiency of a contract rests. you don't have efficient contracts if they can be unrolled so that they never took place. instead, you just have hope, and hope is less efficient than contract.

CaptainPicard

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

I don't think he was necessarily shorting or betting against bitcoin.
Just that with normal fluctuation some fixed rate sales would make him a loss, and others would make him a gain, so they would even out.
This will not work when the prices are only going in one direction.

He says on his site now that he is unable to honor them.
If he refunds your money I don't see a problem.
Retails stores take orders for things they end up not being able to provide all the time, and they just do a refund.

I think some people are just pissed that they wont be getting $2000 worth of BTC for $300.

lonestranger

member

Activity: 115

Merit: 11

I like long walks on the beach, shaving my head...

Quote from: BitterTea on May 16, 2011, 09:07:25 AM

I still think anyone who uses OpenID login should have these buttons on their site, it makes it so much easier and less confusing. http://code.google.com/p/openid-selector/

I like those buttons, but in my case my open ID url appears to be my blogspot address, which I didn't know and since it's not one of the choices I'd still be stuck. How am I to know that google owns blogger? Don't they own everything that MS doesn't?

lonestranger

member

Activity: 115

Merit: 11

I like long walks on the beach, shaving my head...

Quote from: dissipate on May 16, 2011, 06:36:05 PM

I'm in California and I did a locked in rate transaction with bitcoin4cash at $1.44. It took about 2 weeks for bitcoin4cash to receive my cash and I received all of my coins at $6+.

Are you saying he gave you the higher rate even though you locked way low at $1.44? If so, that would be heroic of him.

dissipate

sr. member

Activity: 288

Merit: 251

Quote from: bitcool on May 16, 2011, 03:19:53 PM

Quote from: ribuck on May 16, 2011, 04:26:30 AM

Madhatter had an outstanding reputation here, and he needs to come clean with the community to have any chance of rebuilding his reputation.

Quote from: ribuck on May 16, 2011, 04:26:30 AM

Madhatter had an outstanding reputation here, and he needs to come clean with the community to have any chance of rebuilding his reputation.

I did one cash-in-the-mail transaction with him, it went thru eventually, but it took 4 weeks to complete, luckily there was no wild price fluctuation during this period. I was nervous at the time however, after all mails from US to Canada usually don't take that long.

Just wondering, did anybody else have same issue?

I'm in California and I did a locked in rate transaction with bitcoin4cash at $1.44. It took about 2 weeks for bitcoin4cash to receive my cash and I received all of my coins at $6+.

eMansipater

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 273

Quote from: ribuck on May 16, 2011, 04:26:30 AM

Quote from: Ian Maxwell on May 15, 2011, 10:49:42 PM

It sounds as if Madhatter was presented with a difficult choice---go broke honoring his word, or destroy his hard-earned reputation here---and decided on the latter.

Those are not the only two options. There's also the possibility to "fess up" to the community that he promised what he couldn't deliver, be transparent about the situation, and work with the community to resolve the problem as far as is possible.

Madhatter had an outstanding reputation here, and he needs to come clean with the community to have any chance of rebuilding his reputation.

I agree--a lot of this commentary is premature until Madhatter has a chance to respond. My intent in posting was not to hand out judge, jury, and executioner roles to the forums; but rather to underscore that this is a serious issue that needs to be addressed properly in order for faith in Bitcoin4cash to be restored. I have a lot of empathy for people who have accidentally gotten themselves into tough situations, but that empathy can only be attained by the practice of complete transparency in the matter.

bitcool

legendary

Activity: 1441

Merit: 1000

Live and enjoy experiments

Quote from: ribuck on May 16, 2011, 04:26:30 AM

Madhatter had an outstanding reputation here, and he needs to come clean with the community to have any chance of rebuilding his reputation.

Quote from: ribuck on May 16, 2011, 04:26:30 AM

Madhatter had an outstanding reputation here, and he needs to come clean with the community to have any chance of rebuilding his reputation.

I did one cash-in-the-mail transaction with him, it went thru eventually, but it took 4 weeks to complete, luckily there was no wild price fluctuation during this period. I was nervous at the time however, after all mails from US to Canada usually don't take that long.

Just wondering, did anybody else have same issue?

2_Thumbs_Up

sr. member

Activity: 323

Merit: 251

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 15, 2011, 09:43:28 PM

Quote from: 2_Thumbs_Up on May 15, 2011, 12:18:57 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 15, 2011, 11:18:30 AM

Quote from: ribuck on May 14, 2011, 05:20:02 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 14, 2011, 05:01:11 PM

i'm sure he wasn't hedged in any way. how could u be?

You hedge your own position by buying the coins when you guarantee the price.

that takes tremendous discipline. theres a natural tendency to try and wait for the price to come back under the price u just guaranteed. its easy for a bull mkt to run away from you.

The price could just as well go up over the price you guaranteed which means you are ate a loss. There is no such thing as a natural tendency to gamble with other peoples money.

i hope ur kidding. what do banksters do everyday? gamble with OPM thru fractional reserve lending to infinity.

Freemoney already kind of made my point but just that the banksters do something does not mean it's a natural tendency. I don't believe there is a natural tendency to commit fraud. Responsible people don't do that, fraudsters do.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 252

I still think anyone who uses OpenID login should have these buttons on their site, it makes it so much easier and less confusing. http://code.google.com/p/openid-selector/

lonestranger

member

Activity: 115

Merit: 11

I like long walks on the beach, shaving my head...

Quote from: NghtRppr on May 14, 2011, 02:46:22 PM

Quote from: jimbobway on May 14, 2011, 02:42:00 PM

bitcoin2cash's openid system is a little tricky and you have to make sure you remember your openid url exactly. Otherwise you will not be able to login.

Yes, definitely. The best way is to bookmark your URL so you won't forget it easily.

I had given the whole concept of openID little thought until I got a "Login Fail" error when I tried to login to bitcoin2cash. After a slightly tedious education I succeeded. It's a little creepy to me, though.

ribuck

donator

Activity: 826

Merit: 1060

Quote from: Ian Maxwell on May 15, 2011, 10:49:42 PM

It sounds as if Madhatter was presented with a difficult choice---go broke honoring his word, or destroy his hard-earned reputation here---and decided on the latter.

Those are not the only two options. There's also the possibility to "fess up" to the community that he promised what he couldn't deliver, be transparent about the situation, and work with the community to resolve the problem as far as is possible.

Madhatter had an outstanding reputation here, and he needs to come clean with the community to have any chance of rebuilding his reputation.

Ian Maxwell

full member

Activity: 140

Merit: 101

It sounds as if Madhatter was presented with a difficult choice---go broke honoring his word, or destroy his hard-earned reputation here---and decided on the latter. I'm sure it was a difficult choice for him, and I won't venture to tell him what he should have done. But, having sold his integrity, he shouldn't be shielded from the consequences just because the choice was hard.

Assuming these allegations are true, I won't condemn Madhatter; I simply won't do any business with him.

AllYourBase

full member

Activity: 138

Merit: 100

FWIW, I just completed a small transaction with the madhatter about 2 days ago without fixing the rate, and it went great; he even gave me an exchange rate significantly more favorable than mtgox. Perhaps it's only those locking in an exchange rate just prior to the price going 10x that need to be concerned.

unk

member

Activity: 84

Merit: 10

it is important to take away from these events a lesson that trust is contextual and that the past doesn't predict the future, particularly where individual people are involved.

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 15, 2011, 09:49:19 PM

i'm willing to bet that it was a life or death decision for Madhatter. the way the price was escalating at such a parabolic ramp, i'm sure investors were logically locking prices left and right making a killing off of Madhatter. what is a fixed rate quote anyway? its effectively a SHORT against btc. after all, he's in it to make money; he was willing to fix a price thinking he could buy it cheaper later after the fix (this is the short part) and make money doing so. the parabolic ramp isn't good for everybody; it kills short sellers.

BUT, he did promise the buyers that he would sell at a certain price, so he should have done whatever he needed to do to make that happen, even if it meant a loss to him.

FreeMoney

legendary

Activity: 1246

Merit: 1016

Strength in numbers

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 15, 2011, 09:49:19 PM

i'm willing to bet that it was a life or death decision for Madhatter. the way the price was escalating at such a parabolic ramp, i'm sure investors were logically locking prices left and right making a killing off of Madhatter. what is a fixed rate quote anyway? its effectively a SHORT against btc. after all, he's in it to make money; he was willing to fix a price thinking he could buy it cheaper later after the fix (this is the short part) and make money doing so. the parabolic ramp isn't good for everybody; it kills short sellers.

So he went short and lost money, that means he pays now. A price drop isn't good for everyone either, people who are long get killed.

FreeMoney

legendary

Activity: 1246

Merit: 1016

Strength in numbers

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 15, 2011, 09:43:28 PM

Quote from: 2_Thumbs_Up on May 15, 2011, 12:18:57 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 15, 2011, 11:18:30 AM

Quote from: ribuck on May 14, 2011, 05:20:02 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 14, 2011, 05:01:11 PM

i'm sure he wasn't hedged in any way. how could u be?

You hedge your own position by buying the coins when you guarantee the price.

that takes tremendous discipline. theres a natural tendency to try and wait for the price to come back under the price u just guaranteed. its easy for a bull mkt to run away from you.

The price could just as well go up over the price you guaranteed which means you are ate a loss. There is no such thing as a natural tendency to gamble with other peoples money.

i hope ur kidding. what do banksters do everyday? gamble with OPM thru fractional reserve lending to infinity.

Just because .001% of people do a certain thing because they have a promise from other thieves to move losses elsewhere doesn't mean there is a natural tendency to do it.

cypherdoc

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1002

i'm willing to bet that it was a life or death decision for Madhatter. the way the price was escalating at such a parabolic ramp, i'm sure investors were logically locking prices left and right making a killing off of Madhatter. what is a fixed rate quote anyway? its effectively a SHORT against btc. after all, he's in it to make money; he was willing to fix a price thinking he could buy it cheaper later after the fix (this is the short part) and make money doing so. the parabolic ramp isn't good for everybody; it kills short sellers.

cypherdoc

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1002

Quote from: 2_Thumbs_Up on May 15, 2011, 12:18:57 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 15, 2011, 11:18:30 AM

Quote from: ribuck on May 14, 2011, 05:20:02 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 14, 2011, 05:01:11 PM

i'm sure he wasn't hedged in any way. how could u be?

You hedge your own position by buying the coins when you guarantee the price.

that takes tremendous discipline. theres a natural tendency to try and wait for the price to come back under the price u just guaranteed. its easy for a bull mkt to run away from you.

The price could just as well go up over the price you guaranteed which means you are ate a loss. There is no such thing as a natural tendency to gamble with other peoples money.

i hope ur kidding. what do banksters do everyday? gamble with OPM thru fractional reserve lending to infinity.

Topic: Warning: Bitcoin4Cash trades cancelled! Won't do business with Madhatter again. - page 4. (Read 18300 times)