Warning: blockchain.info may register you IP, even if you don't use them!

Wolf0

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It was only the wind.

Quote from: MPOE-PR on February 26, 2013, 04:12:43 AM

Quote from: niko on February 25, 2013, 07:09:57 PM

This is presently true, but only because Bitcoin is still a new, obscure, and therefore unregulated system. As it gets more widely adopted, there will be more attempts to regulate and monitor transactions. Much like a business today is typically required to collect and report information about certain fiat transactions, in the future same AML requirements may apply to businesses within the "bitcoin system".

This will absolutely never happen. The system allowing such bs would be by definition a fork of Bitcoin, and a pretty irrelevant/hopeless one at that.

I don't know about that. Governments aren't above making laws about laundering bitcoins, and if they can't find a way to regulate it, they're certainly not above labeling it 'dangerous' and throwing users in prison.

Red Emerald

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Quote from: picobit on February 26, 2013, 03:32:38 AM

But the moment I run my node through Tor, noone else can connect to it, and I am not contributing to the Bitcoin network.

I still think that anyone who has truly something to hide should hide behind Tor, but it is annoying that the rest of us have to just to conserve our privacy. I know a government or somebody resourceful could collect this IP info themselves. But the average weirdo with an axe to grind probably can't - or if he can, then he cannot get this kind of info for transactions in the past, except that blockchain.info serves it on a silver platter. And he might not give a damn about "plausible deniability".

To summarize:

If you run a full node, blockchain.info is likely to register your IP with your transactions (diluted by whatever transactions you relay).
If you really care about this, run Tor. At the price of making your ISP believe you watch child pornography (just kidding)
Some of us think that blockchain.info should stop publishing this otherwise transient IP information. Others disagree.

Read the doc I linked. Your node can still be open for connections AND behind Tor. It's been this way for like 8 months.

davout

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1davout

Quote from: picobit on February 22, 2013, 05:56:52 PM

registering and storing transient information that would not normally be available later.

That's pretty much the whole point of the internet.

niko

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There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.

Quote from: MPOE-PR on February 26, 2013, 04:12:43 AM

Quote from: niko on February 25, 2013, 07:09:57 PM

This is presently true, but only because Bitcoin is still a new, obscure, and therefore unregulated system. As it gets more widely adopted, there will be more attempts to regulate and monitor transactions. Much like a business today is typically required to collect and report information about certain fiat transactions, in the future same AML requirements may apply to businesses within the "bitcoin system".

This will absolutely never happen. The system allowing such bs would be by definition a fork of Bitcoin, and a pretty irrelevant/hopeless one at that.

No fork needed, I was writing about factors external to Bitcoin and its protocol. As for irrelevance - today's credit cards are far worse, and may be irrelevant in your view, but hundreds of millions of them are in use.

MPOE-PR

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Quote from: niko on February 25, 2013, 07:09:57 PM

This is presently true, but only because Bitcoin is still a new, obscure, and therefore unregulated system. As it gets more widely adopted, there will be more attempts to regulate and monitor transactions. Much like a business today is typically required to collect and report information about certain fiat transactions, in the future same AML requirements may apply to businesses within the "bitcoin system".

This will absolutely never happen. The system allowing such bs would be by definition a fork of Bitcoin, and a pretty irrelevant/hopeless one at that.

picobit

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Decor in numeris

But the moment I run my node through Tor, noone else can connect to it, and I am not contributing to the Bitcoin network.

I still think that anyone who has truly something to hide should hide behind Tor, but it is annoying that the rest of us have to just to conserve our privacy. I know a government or somebody resourceful could collect this IP info themselves. But the average weirdo with an axe to grind probably can't - or if he can, then he cannot get this kind of info for transactions in the past, except that blockchain.info serves it on a silver platter. And he might not give a damn about "plausible deniability".

To summarize:

If you run a full node, blockchain.info is likely to register your IP with your transactions (diluted by whatever transactions you relay).
If you really care about this, run Tor. At the price of making your ISP believe you watch child pornography (just kidding)
Some of us think that blockchain.info should stop publishing this otherwise transient IP information. Others disagree.

Red Emerald

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Quote from: picobit on February 22, 2013, 06:35:00 PM

Quote from: twolifeinexile on February 22, 2013, 06:27:42 PM

Tor is over complicated and correct me if I am wrong, Tor even do not have a non-GUI version?

It does. Here is how to run it on a Mac: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/MacRunOnBoot
And there is more info about command lines etc here (digging it out is a bit tricky, I have seen more well-structured docs):
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki

It's really not that complicated at all. No need for a GUI. Its a proxy that you should just let start at login and do its thing running in the background.

It's incredibly easy to `brew install tor` and then copy paste a couple commands it outputs after installing. Way easier than following that guide (although that guide looks like it would work fine if you really want the GUI).

There are multiple nodes running as Tor Hidden Services. Bitcoin can hide in Tor incredibly easily. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/Tor.txt

I looked up the IP of all the nodes I run on blockchain.info and not a single one of my own transactions is listed as being relayed by any of my nodes.

twolifeinexile

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: twolifeinexile on February 25, 2013, 10:53:38 PM

But you can always transfer your coins to new address....

And that transaction is public on the block chain.

But they would not know you are paying yourself or you are paying someone else...

twolifeinexile

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Quote from: niko on February 25, 2013, 07:09:57 PM

Quote from: Maged on February 25, 2013, 06:48:14 PM

However, the only way to truly be anonymous is by only spending the bitcoins within the bitcoin system.

This is presently true, but only because Bitcoin is still a new, obscure, and therefore unregulated system. As it gets more widely adopted, there will be more attempts to regulate and monitor transactions. Much like a business today is typically required to collect and report information about certain fiat transactions, in the future same AML requirements may apply to businesses within the "bitcoin system". Add to this private consumer-snooping industry which will jump on the bandwagon. You place an order once, with your mailing address, and your coins are tied to your identity. Laundering service is not available due to AML regulations. You may choose to trust your online wallet provider to not disclose your sources of coins (thus acting as a mixer) unless served with a court order, that is all.

But you can always transfer your coins to new address....

niko

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There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.

Quote from: Maged on February 25, 2013, 06:48:14 PM

However, the only way to truly be anonymous is by only spending the bitcoins within the bitcoin system.

This is presently true, but only because Bitcoin is still a new, obscure, and therefore unregulated system. As it gets more widely adopted, there will be more attempts to regulate and monitor transactions. Much like a business today is typically required to collect and report information about certain fiat transactions, in the future same AML requirements may apply to businesses within the "bitcoin system". Add to this private consumer-snooping industry which will jump on the bandwagon. You place an order once, with your mailing address, and your coins are tied to your identity. Laundering service is not available due to AML regulations. You may choose to trust your online wallet provider to not disclose your sources of coins (thus acting as a mixer) unless served with a court order, that is all.

Maged

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Quote from: Anon136 on February 22, 2013, 09:40:31 PM

Quote from: dree12 on February 22, 2013, 05:52:24 PM

Quote from: picobit on February 22, 2013, 05:51:00 PM

I don't truly have anything to hide - I just find it surprising (and disappointing) that blockchain.info would really do this!

This is a good thing. Too many people have the misconception that Bitcoin is anonymous. In reality, it takes an expert to make Bitcoin anonymous. Blockchain.info is actually dispelling that misconception.

what do you mean it takes an expert? use tor and send your coins through a mixer, that's pretty much all there is to it right?

No, it really does take an expert. If you only have a single Bitcoin income source, it is quite possible to track your bitcoins even after they go through a mixer by watching spending patterns. Multiple non-linked income sources using distinct wallets and different mixers (eventually combining at another mixer) would be harder to track. Even then, you have to understand Bitcoin at a low level to avoid any slip-ups. However, the only way to truly be anonymous is by only spending the bitcoins within the bitcoin system.

MPOE-PR

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What's all this obsession with IPs anyway? Every box on the damned Internet records your IP.

Most LAMP installs come with awstats or webalizer or some sort of plugin preinstalled. Guess what that does? It processes the logs which are kept by default. Guess what those logs consist of?

Most firewalls keep logs if nothing else. Your IP is kept literally by pretty much everything online as part of the normal functioning of the Internet. This is how it should be, just like any piece of mail will have the address of someone on it.

Mike Hearn

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You can also just run the app with -nolisten so blockchain can't connect to you directly. Then your transactions will be attributed to whatever nodes you connect to. Of course if you accidentally connect to the blockchain node, they can still see and publish that, but it's unlikely.

picobit

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Quote from: Gabi on February 22, 2013, 06:43:06 PM

Quote from: adamstgBit on February 22, 2013, 06:30:59 PM

what if i started publicly displaying IP of visitors to my pron site would that be cool?

I vote take down IP...

Nonsense, bitcoin relayed transaction display the IP.

So you vote take down bitcoin? Good luck

He didn't!

He suggested not to make transient information (IP) permanent and public.

If ever I turn to the dark side of the force, I will off course start using Tor. But if we all do, and all the nodes hide, the bitcoin network will be harder to connect to.

I doubt that my government has started worrying about bitcoin and surveilling us yet. But of course they don't "miss the boat", all the information they did not get around to collect in time is presented to them by blockchain.info.

And regarding "plausible deniability": Once people are looking, they might find proof elsewhere. It is better not to be suspected than to be suspected without airtight proof.

niko

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There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.

Quote from: Spekulatius on February 22, 2013, 07:03:05 PM

There is a reason for this information to remain private.

This information is not private. I don't see why it is so hard to face this fact. The companies and government agencies collect it, analyze it, and use it. I don't see why it is so hard to notice that their exclusive access to everyone's information gives them an unfair advantage in controling our lives and the world. Making this information universally accessible restores the balance and empowers people at the expense of companies and governments.

If you wish to keep it private, use VPN/Tor/mixing service/wear a hoodie (CCTV), etc.

twolifeinexile

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: twolifeinexile on February 22, 2013, 10:50:37 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

It doesn't take an expert to make Bitcoin anonymous, but it takes knowledge of computers. You have to know enough to use a VPN (or Tor), and if you use Tor, you have to know how to not leak information. You also have to know to use a coin mixer, or mix them yourself.

As for blockchain.info's practice, I agree with both sides of the argument. It's not cool to show that information, but it does level the playing field against governments. I vote to keep it, as I care more about people knowing what information is accessible and knowing how to be save than the privacy of idiots.

It could just prove you are the first to relay that transaction to block chain.info, nothing else,

Right, but it hints that the transaction may be yours. If you would like to suppress this information, then take the proper precautions.

Maybe someone should start a anonymous relay server, in a location without any log rentention law environment.

twolifeinexile

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Quote from: ?? on ??

It doesn't take an expert to make Bitcoin anonymous, but it takes knowledge of computers. You have to know enough to use a VPN (or Tor), and if you use Tor, you have to know how to not leak information. You also have to know to use a coin mixer, or mix them yourself.

As for blockchain.info's practice, I agree with both sides of the argument. It's not cool to show that information, but it does level the playing field against governments. I vote to keep it, as I care more about people knowing what information is accessible and knowing how to be save than the privacy of idiots.

It could just prove you are the first to relay that transaction to block chain.info, nothing else,

Anon136

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Quote from: dree12 on February 22, 2013, 05:52:24 PM

Quote from: picobit on February 22, 2013, 05:51:00 PM

I don't truly have anything to hide - I just find it surprising (and disappointing) that blockchain.info would really do this!

This is a good thing. Too many people have the misconception that Bitcoin is anonymous. In reality, it takes an expert to make Bitcoin anonymous. Blockchain.info is actually dispelling that misconception.

what do you mean it takes an expert? use tor and send your coins through a mixer, that's pretty much all there is to it right?

adamstgBit

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Trusted Bitcoiner

Quote from: SgtSpike on February 22, 2013, 07:13:03 PM

I kind of enjoy perusing through the IP logs and speculating as to the actual IP/location of the owners of various addresses. I vote keep it.

oh lol!

i could easily get anyone's IP on this forum and show you all the tx they have ever made with that ip

BasementMiner!

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Bullshit.

You have plausible deniability you sent the transaction.

They only log the IP which first relayed the transaction to their nodes.

Topic: Warning: blockchain.info may register you IP, even if you don't use them! (Read 6123 times)