Andreas Antonopoulos Bitcoin Q&A: Samourai, Wasabi, and privacy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8pjs3bz9-8
Topic: Wasabi Wallet 1.0 Is Released - page 5. (Read 4085 times)
I believe this settles it. Jorge Timon is in the same thread calling them out too. A friend of mine also said that Gregory Maxwell also did.
I was slightly doubting nopara73, honestly. Sorry.
https://twitter.com/lukedashjr/status/1165628234597355520
Samourai likes to advertise features that they don't actually have, and add "features" that don't do what they claim.
Their reaction to me calling them out, has so far been to troll me. I think others calling them out have received the same treatment.
I was slightly doubting nopara73, honestly. Sorry.
https://twitter.com/lukedashjr/status/1165628234597355520
Quote
Samourai likes to advertise features that they don't actually have, and add "features" that don't do what they claim.
Their reaction to me calling them out, has so far been to troll me. I think others calling them out have received the same treatment.
Who'd have thought that these wallets would be battling for supremacy only to bring about mutually assured denouncement?
Been completely unaware of all this background happenings in Samourai, but I wonder if anyone else notice this aggressive response to criticism is something a bit more common in dev-world? I totally get the defensiveness, I'd be all up in arms if someone criticised my work, but then I wouldn't go down warpaths haranguing other devs.
A belated question: but Samourai and Wasabi... any reason for these names? HiddenWallet, DarkWallet... and then this move. A vague link to Nakamoto etymology?
Been completely unaware of all this background happenings in Samourai, but I wonder if anyone else notice this aggressive response to criticism is something a bit more common in dev-world? I totally get the defensiveness, I'd be all up in arms if someone criticised my work, but then I wouldn't go down warpaths haranguing other devs.
A belated question: but Samourai and Wasabi... any reason for these names? HiddenWallet, DarkWallet... and then this move. A vague link to Nakamoto etymology?
While JoinMarket is going along quietly. Maybe they're the bad-actors, making Wasabi and Samourai fight. Haha.
That was a joke.
i suggest renaming the wallet to "shinobi" - a real samurai wouldn't act this way.
*adds wasabi*
*adds wasabi*
Or NinjaAssasin the Honorless Wallet.
i suggest renaming the wallet to "shinobi" - a real samurai wouldn't act this way.
*adds wasabi*
*adds wasabi*
Who'd have thought that these wallets would be battling for supremacy only to bring about mutually assured denouncement?
Been completely unaware of all this background happenings in Samourai, but I wonder if anyone else notice this aggressive response to criticism is something a bit more common in dev-world? I totally get the defensiveness, I'd be all up in arms if someone criticised my work, but then I wouldn't go down warpaths haranguing other devs.
A belated question: but Samourai and Wasabi... any reason for these names? HiddenWallet, DarkWallet... and then this move. A vague link to Nakamoto etymology?
Been completely unaware of all this background happenings in Samourai, but I wonder if anyone else notice this aggressive response to criticism is something a bit more common in dev-world? I totally get the defensiveness, I'd be all up in arms if someone criticised my work, but then I wouldn't go down warpaths haranguing other devs.
A belated question: but Samourai and Wasabi... any reason for these names? HiddenWallet, DarkWallet... and then this move. A vague link to Nakamoto etymology?
That's a grave accusation that could demolish their standing in the community, be careful. But truly disgusting, if proven true.
Samourai has a long shady history surrounded by extreme incompetence. It'd be perfectly in-character for them to do this.
- https://medium.com/@nopara73/samouraileaks-samouraidevs-sockpuppet-exposed-7ce654b92c0b
- https://medium.com/@nopara73/samouraileaks-part-2-harassment-of-bitcoin-developers-fae3019abd2f
- https://medium.com/@nopara73/samouraileaks-part-3-is-random-org-random-enough-35704796ae93
But then, is there any other reason for "why" the address reuse by that particular "participant"? The question not intended as a challenge, but out of curiousity.
Why that strange behavior happened is a great mystery. The only theory I could come up with that actually made sense is that it's Samourai itself, of course I have no idea, nor days or weeks to investigate it.
That's a grave accusation that could demolish their standing in the community, be careful. But truly disgusting, if proven true.
But then, is there any other reason for "why" the address reuse by that particular "participant"? The question not intended as a challenge, but out of curiousity.
Why that strange behavior happened is a great mystery. The only theory I could come up with that actually made sense is that it's Samourai itself, of course I have no idea, nor days or weeks to investigate it.
“Use CoinJoin, but learn about it and don’t assume you are private. Always mix.”
Coindesk: A Battle Between Bitcoin Wallets Has Big Implications for Privacy
Coindesk: A Battle Between Bitcoin Wallets Has Big Implications for Privacy
A Sybil attack is when one party participates in a coinjoin with most of the peers. For example Samourai knows everyone's past and future wallet addresses, except the few Dojo users. In this case Dojo users are Sybil attacked by Samourai by design. In Wasabi, the participant who reuses 2 addresses in many rounds only participates as one peer in a round. This party participated in 10% of the coinjoins only as one peer. 99% of us in a round are not affected. Then they go on to talk about other kind of address reuses, like donations and coordinator address and such and somehow want to extend the logic of the first case, which was flawed to begin with to these too. The fact of the matter is that no other address reuse types reuse addresses in both the input and in the output side, so Sybil is not even a question here. But also, getting back to their first example, if someone would want to Sybil, then that someone wouldn't modify Wasabi's code to reuse 2 addresses in the first place, because a successful Sybil attack needs to be unnoticed. The only thing that address reuser achieved is for Samourai to build a carefully engineered media lie campaign. Only they benefited from this and nobody's privacy has been ruined by this. Based on their scammer history, chances are they're doing that in the first place.
But then, is there any other reason for "why" the address reuse by that particular "participant"? The question not intended as a challenge, but out of curiousity.
A Sybil attack is when one party participates in a coinjoin with most of the peers. For example Samourai knows everyone's past and future wallet addresses, except the few Dojo users. In this case Dojo users are Sybil attacked by Samourai by design. In Wasabi, the participant who reuses 2 addresses in many rounds only participates as one peer in a round. This party participated in 10% of the coinjoins only as one peer. 99% of us in a round are not affected. Then they go on to talk about other kind of address reuses, like donations and coordinator address and such and somehow want to extend the logic of the first case, which was flawed to begin with to these too. The fact of the matter is that no other address reuse types reuse addresses in both the input and in the output side, so Sybil is not even a question here. But also, getting back to their first example, if someone would want to Sybil, then that someone wouldn't modify Wasabi's code to reuse 2 addresses in the first place, because a successful Sybil attack needs to be unnoticed. The only thing that address reuser achieved is for Samourai to build a carefully engineered media lie campaign. Only they benefited from this and nobody's privacy has been ruined by this. Based on their scammer history, chances are they're doing that in the first place.
I found this while doing some research on JoinMarket, Wasabi, and Samourai. It's a PSA/blog made by Samourai's team, of all people.
nopara73, can you comment?
https://medium.com/samourai-wallet/updated-psa-wasabi-wallet-is-the-target-of-ongoing-behavior-that-appears-to-be-a-sybil-attack-6674a322e187
nopara73, can you comment?
https://medium.com/samourai-wallet/updated-psa-wasabi-wallet-is-the-target-of-ongoing-behavior-that-appears-to-be-a-sybil-attack-6674a322e187
Few concerns are answered on https://medium.com/@nopara73/address-reuse-in-wasabi-ef9e308c9175 which written on same day as Samourai's article.
I'm not sure whether it's response to Samourai's article or written after Samourai's article posted though
we had this situation before and i start to believe samourai does this all on purpose to pick a fight with wasabi.
maybe... some of their concerns are even legit... but their presentation is a tiny bit too dramatic to be considered as just a friendly criticism.
i am with team wasabi. go debunk that shite!
I found this while doing some research on JoinMarket, Wasabi, and Samourai. It's a PSA/blog made by Samourai's team, of all people.
nopara73, can you comment?
https://medium.com/samourai-wallet/updated-psa-wasabi-wallet-is-the-target-of-ongoing-behavior-that-appears-to-be-a-sybil-attack-6674a322e187
On July 22nd we disclosed that an unknown entity was engaging in a strange pattern of address reuse within Wasabi Wallet transactions created since June 1, 2019. The disclosure focused on a single entity (ANON-2300390908). This entity was easy to discover due to very uncommon behavior, such as using the same address on both sides of a mix transaction. Our claim was that this behavior could indicate an attempt to de-anonymize users of the platform as well as highlighting an incomplete implementation of the ZeroLink protocol as coded by Wasabi Wallet.
Our continued investigations have revealed systematic and ongoing patterns of behavior resembling a Sybil attack within the Wasabi platform. There are a small number of entities (perhaps a small group of users, or a single user) that represent a large part of the UTXOs active in Wasabi mix transactions. This activity has been ongoing in various waves of intensity since January 2019.
nopara73, can you comment?
https://medium.com/samourai-wallet/updated-psa-wasabi-wallet-is-the-target-of-ongoing-behavior-that-appears-to-be-a-sybil-attack-6674a322e187
Quote
On July 22nd we disclosed that an unknown entity was engaging in a strange pattern of address reuse within Wasabi Wallet transactions created since June 1, 2019. The disclosure focused on a single entity (ANON-2300390908). This entity was easy to discover due to very uncommon behavior, such as using the same address on both sides of a mix transaction. Our claim was that this behavior could indicate an attempt to de-anonymize users of the platform as well as highlighting an incomplete implementation of the ZeroLink protocol as coded by Wasabi Wallet.
Our continued investigations have revealed systematic and ongoing patterns of behavior resembling a Sybil attack within the Wasabi platform. There are a small number of entities (perhaps a small group of users, or a single user) that represent a large part of the UTXOs active in Wasabi mix transactions. This activity has been ongoing in various waves of intensity since January 2019.
Dávid Molnár published a new article on medium: PROTECTING PRIVACY WITH WASABI WALLET
there he explains why we need privacy, fungibility and how to improve on privacy.
here is the youtube video of david's presentation at the Bitcoin2019 conference on this topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLOMcU8MhWM
i prefer wasabi, to be honest.
good article by nopara73, great he took the time to talk through all of the allegations.
good article by nopara73, great he took the time to talk through all of the allegations.
I was browsing reddit & saw this tweet
I have concern about part where Wasabi CoinJoin output is ordered by registration/enqueue time, i checked few of CoinJoin history & apparently most of them have behavior mentioned on twitter/telegram. Any thoughts?
If you are using wasabi, you need to read this thread: https://t.co/FL7f30nWeC
"With Wasabi if you are mixing 10 BTC, I can trivially track that 10 BTC as it is peeled down into smaller utxos. The left over change is part of the mix tx, and thus creates a determinstic link"
"With Wasabi if you are mixing 10 BTC, I can trivially track that 10 BTC as it is peeled down into smaller utxos. The left over change is part of the mix tx, and thus creates a determinstic link"
I have concern about part where Wasabi CoinJoin output is ordered by registration/enqueue time, i checked few of CoinJoin history & apparently most of them have behavior mentioned on twitter/telegram. Any thoughts?
The developer responded about that accusation yesterday: https://medium.com/@nopara73/wasabileaks-is-wasabi-wallet-deanonymized-5e3f679d866e
I've recommended wasabi to so many people at this point but never thought to look for posts on bitcointalk. It came at just the right time with all centralized mixers getting pwned in one swipe. I'll be following along to see what else comes up down the road!
> No, if it's generated from Electrum even it's bench32 (bc1) addresses it will give you different addresses after you recover with a seed generated from Electrum.
Oh really? Is this some configuration issue? I only tested the other way around.
There's one trick you have to pay attention that comes to my mind. In Wasabi we use password as the passphrase, so you cannot arbitrarily choose your password in the recovery tab, because it'll act like a passphrase, too. You will want to leave the password empty in case you don't have a passphrase in Electrum.
Oh really? Is this some configuration issue? I only tested the other way around.
There's one trick you have to pay attention that comes to my mind. In Wasabi we use password as the passphrase, so you cannot arbitrarily choose your password in the recovery tab, because it'll act like a passphrase, too. You will want to leave the password empty in case you don't have a passphrase in Electrum.
> Can I recover a seed generated by Electrum with an extension?
Only if it's a bech32 wallet.
No, if it's generated from Electrum even it's bench32 (bc1) addresses it will give you different addresses after you recover with a seed generated from Electrum. Only if it's a bech32 wallet.
I already tested it and it gives me different addresses.
> Can I recover a seed generated by Electrum with an extension?
Only if it's a bech32 wallet.
Only if it's a bech32 wallet.
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