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Topic: What are the downsides to 8MB blocks? - page 3. (Read 5376 times)

legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
September 03, 2015, 07:15:26 AM
#87
Linuld, really... you are asking the same questions that have been answered like a thousand times, and making arguments that have been countered a thousand times...

I will only comment on some of them:
Quote
On top... you know that the current blocks are not even filled full. They only are full when these spammers act. And there is no reason to assume that suddenly, with 8 Megabyte Blocks, these blocks will be full. Where should all these transactions come from?
There's a perfect reason to assume that blocks are suddenly 8Mb -- if there's a specific attack vector linked to full 8Mb blocks, it will be used. It's not that expensive, especially when fees are gravitating towards infignificant amounts due to big blocks.
Quote
8 Megabytes per 10 Minutes and you think we will get in problems with that? What kind of internet connection do you have in order to fear that?
A decentralized network robustness depends not on an average throughput, but on the throughput of bottlenecks, namely network bottlenecks (China-ROW, e.g.), CPU bottlenecks and others.
CPU bottlenecks are currently being worked on by core devs.
Quote
Sure. And will you pay that? You realize the cost of the recent spam attacks? And those were only some KB. You speak about filling up a lot MB with spam. I wonder if you will find someone who will do the spamming.
Do you realize that yeaterday's attack created more than 35Mb transaction backlog -- enough to fill more than four 8Mb blocks.
The previous attack had much larger backlog.
Quote
And of course i referred to the natural adoption of bitcoin that will fill the blocks. Spamming won't happen since it does not make sense then anymore in any way for the spammer.
"Sense"? What's the sense for an attacker currently? Do you realize that with this natural adoption even 8Mb blocks will get full at some point, and the closer they get to 8Mb, the less costly is a spam attack.
We can't solve the spam attack by allowing for more bloating, we can fight it only with fees, which are bound to go towards zero if we keep increasing blocksize limit beyond demand.

Most of your comments are bullshit which can be countered a thousand times too.
Go ahead, I'm eagerly waiting. Thousand times is not necessary, one will be enough.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
September 03, 2015, 06:35:33 AM
#86
Linuld, really... you are asking the same questions that have been answered like a thousand times, and making arguments that have been countered a thousand times...

I will only comment on some of them:
Quote
On top... you know that the current blocks are not even filled full. They only are full when these spammers act. And there is no reason to assume that suddenly, with 8 Megabyte Blocks, these blocks will be full. Where should all these transactions come from?
There's a perfect reason to assume that blocks are suddenly 8Mb -- if there's a specific attack vector linked to full 8Mb blocks, it will be used. It's not that expensive, especially when fees are gravitating towards infignificant amounts due to big blocks.
Quote
8 Megabytes per 10 Minutes and you think we will get in problems with that? What kind of internet connection do you have in order to fear that?
A decentralized network robustness depends not on an average throughput, but on the throughput of bottlenecks, namely network bottlenecks (China-ROW, e.g.), CPU bottlenecks and others.
CPU bottlenecks are currently being worked on by core devs.
Quote
Sure. And will you pay that? You realize the cost of the recent spam attacks? And those were only some KB. You speak about filling up a lot MB with spam. I wonder if you will find someone who will do the spamming.
Do you realize that yeaterday's attack created more than 35Mb transaction backlog -- enough to fill more than four 8Mb blocks.
The previous attack had much larger backlog.
Quote
And of course i referred to the natural adoption of bitcoin that will fill the blocks. Spamming won't happen since it does not make sense then anymore in any way for the spammer.
"Sense"? What's the sense for an attacker currently? Do you realize that with this natural adoption even 8Mb blocks will get full at some point, and the closer they get to 8Mb, the less costly is a spam attack.
We can't solve the spam attack by allowing for more bloating, we can fight it only with fees, which are bound to go towards zero if we keep increasing blocksize limit beyond demand.

Most of your comments are bullshit which can be countered a thousand times too.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
September 03, 2015, 03:06:27 AM
#85
Linuld, really... you are asking the same questions that have been answered like a thousand times, and making arguments that have been countered a thousand times...

I will only comment on some of them:
Quote
On top... you know that the current blocks are not even filled full. They only are full when these spammers act. And there is no reason to assume that suddenly, with 8 Megabyte Blocks, these blocks will be full. Where should all these transactions come from?
There's a perfect reason to assume that blocks are suddenly 8Mb -- if there's a specific attack vector linked to full 8Mb blocks, it will be used. It's not that expensive, especially when fees are gravitating towards infignificant amounts due to big blocks.
Quote
8 Megabytes per 10 Minutes and you think we will get in problems with that? What kind of internet connection do you have in order to fear that?
A decentralized network robustness depends not on an average throughput, but on the throughput of bottlenecks, namely network bottlenecks (China-ROW, e.g.), CPU bottlenecks and others.
CPU bottlenecks are currently being worked on by core devs.
Quote
Sure. And will you pay that? You realize the cost of the recent spam attacks? And those were only some KB. You speak about filling up a lot MB with spam. I wonder if you will find someone who will do the spamming.
Do you realize that yeaterday's attack created more than 35Mb transaction backlog -- enough to fill more than four 8Mb blocks.
The previous attack had much larger backlog.
Quote
And of course i referred to the natural adoption of bitcoin that will fill the blocks. Spamming won't happen since it does not make sense then anymore in any way for the spammer.
"Sense"? What's the sense for an attacker currently? Do you realize that with this natural adoption even 8Mb blocks will get full at some point, and the closer they get to 8Mb, the less costly is a spam attack.
We can't solve the spam attack by allowing for more bloating, we can fight it only with fees, which are bound to go towards zero if we keep increasing blocksize limit beyond demand.
sr. member
Activity: 473
Merit: 250
September 02, 2015, 10:48:12 PM
#84
A good argument against the bitcoiners that demand 1MB blocksize because "Miners have to be rewarded" is the electricity that goes away with that. I recently read an article about a study saying that currently 1! bitcoin transaction costs so much electricity like 1.75 normal US households use in a day.

We can't let all these miners survive artificially by raising the fees. The amount of miners need to be trimmed down and the bitcoin security be more power efficient. That was always happening and it should and can't be held up artificially. The bitcoin network would be still very very secure with less miners.

Unfortunately miners are the mighty ones in the game. We only can hope that the sane one are the biggest ones. And that they see the need of bitcoin adoption for getting future profits.

That is a sick amount of power... So mining one block consumes the power of a full city? That is insane and not sustainable, especially if it keeps rising...

I do agree that's a lot to secure this level of Bitcoin transactions as of today. But I also read that current amount of hashing power is enough to secure even a 100 fold increase in the transaction number and user number. So to say, if we would have 100 million users, the network would be secured with today's hash rate.

That's why I don't understand the opponents of the block size increase. Bitcoin has to scale in order to be sustainable in the long run! For that we need bigger blocks!

but WHO will ever be able to download 8MB

8 FUCKING MASSIVE MEGA BYTES

this will surely make minning WAY more centralized

8 Megabytes per 10 Minutes and you think we will get in problems with that? What kind of internet connection do you have in order to fear that?

On top... you know that the current blocks are not even filled full. They only are full when these spammers act. And there is no reason to assume that suddenly, with 8 Megabyte Blocks, these blocks will be full. Where should all these transactions come from?
sr. member
Activity: 473
Merit: 250
September 02, 2015, 10:43:10 PM
#83
it will take a lot of time until the bitcoin network will have enough adoption to fill 8 MB Blocks.

It won't take a lot of time until DoS 'stress tests' fill up 8 MB blocks.

Sure. And will you pay that? You realize the cost of the recent spam attacks? And those were only some KB. You speak about filling up a lot MB with spam. I wonder if you will find someone who will do the spamming.

And of course i referred to the natural adoption of bitcoin that will fill the blocks. Spamming won't happen since it does not make sense then anymore in any way for the spammer.

for now this is a non existing problem.

 Roll Eyes

I guess you only misinterpreted. Read above.

Quote
Miners are struggling with blocks far smaller than 750KB blocks and resorting to SPV mining
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010283.html

The existing problem is that you don't know WTF you're talking about. 

Or... maybe... you don't have a clue what i'm talking about.

Your link, by the way, is all fine and so but there is already a walkaround since ages: http://bitcoinrelaynetwork.org/

I would SPV-Mine too when i would own a big farm. Though i would validate the previous block once i received all data. Then act accordingly. Simply because it would be a little bit faster. That doesn't mean that the advantage is so big that it really makes a big difference.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
Move On !!!!!!
September 02, 2015, 03:50:47 PM
#82
A good argument against the bitcoiners that demand 1MB blocksize because "Miners have to be rewarded" is the electricity that goes away with that. I recently read an article about a study saying that currently 1! bitcoin transaction costs so much electricity like 1.75 normal US households use in a day.

We can't let all these miners survive artificially by raising the fees. The amount of miners need to be trimmed down and the bitcoin security be more power efficient. That was always happening and it should and can't be held up artificially. The bitcoin network would be still very very secure with less miners.

Unfortunately miners are the mighty ones in the game. We only can hope that the sane one are the biggest ones. And that they see the need of bitcoin adoption for getting future profits.

That is a sick amount of power... So mining one block consumes the power of a full city? That is insane and not sustainable, especially if it keeps rising...

I do agree that's a lot to secure this level of Bitcoin transactions as of today. But I also read that current amount of hashing power is enough to secure even a 100 fold increase in the transaction number and user number. So to say, if we would have 100 million users, the network would be secured with today's hash rate.

That's why I don't understand the opponents of the block size increase. Bitcoin has to scale in order to be sustainable in the long run! For that we need bigger blocks!

but WHO will ever be able to download 8MB

8 FUCKING MASSIVE MEGA BYTES

this will surely make minning WAY more centralized

Well then we have a huge freaking problem! Then Bitcoin isn't ready for mass adoption and how will ever be ready? What solution is there besides sidechains, if the sidechains are even possible?
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
September 02, 2015, 03:34:23 PM
#81
A good argument against the bitcoiners that demand 1MB blocksize because "Miners have to be rewarded" is the electricity that goes away with that. I recently read an article about a study saying that currently 1! bitcoin transaction costs so much electricity like 1.75 normal US households use in a day.

We can't let all these miners survive artificially by raising the fees. The amount of miners need to be trimmed down and the bitcoin security be more power efficient. That was always happening and it should and can't be held up artificially. The bitcoin network would be still very very secure with less miners.

Unfortunately miners are the mighty ones in the game. We only can hope that the sane one are the biggest ones. And that they see the need of bitcoin adoption for getting future profits.

That is a sick amount of power... So mining one block consumes the power of a full city? That is insane and not sustainable, especially if it keeps rising...

I do agree that's a lot to secure this level of Bitcoin transactions as of today. But I also read that current amount of hashing power is enough to secure even a 100 fold increase in the transaction number and user number. So to say, if we would have 100 million users, the network would be secured with today's hash rate.

That's why I don't understand the opponents of the block size increase. Bitcoin has to scale in order to be sustainable in the long run! For that we need bigger blocks!

but WHO will ever be able to download 8MB

8 FUCKING MASSIVE MEGA BYTES

this will surely make minning WAY more centralized

Not me! My 56K modem can't handle it  Cry
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
September 02, 2015, 03:30:16 PM
#80
A good argument against the bitcoiners that demand 1MB blocksize because "Miners have to be rewarded" is the electricity that goes away with that. I recently read an article about a study saying that currently 1! bitcoin transaction costs so much electricity like 1.75 normal US households use in a day.

We can't let all these miners survive artificially by raising the fees. The amount of miners need to be trimmed down and the bitcoin security be more power efficient. That was always happening and it should and can't be held up artificially. The bitcoin network would be still very very secure with less miners.

Unfortunately miners are the mighty ones in the game. We only can hope that the sane one are the biggest ones. And that they see the need of bitcoin adoption for getting future profits.

That is a sick amount of power... So mining one block consumes the power of a full city? That is insane and not sustainable, especially if it keeps rising...

I do agree that's a lot to secure this level of Bitcoin transactions as of today. But I also read that current amount of hashing power is enough to secure even a 100 fold increase in the transaction number and user number. So to say, if we would have 100 million users, the network would be secured with today's hash rate.

That's why I don't understand the opponents of the block size increase. Bitcoin has to scale in order to be sustainable in the long run! For that we need bigger blocks!

but WHO will ever be able to download 8MB

8 FUCKING MASSIVE MEGA BYTES

this will surely make minning WAY more centralized
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
Move On !!!!!!
September 02, 2015, 03:27:06 PM
#79
A good argument against the bitcoiners that demand 1MB blocksize because "Miners have to be rewarded" is the electricity that goes away with that. I recently read an article about a study saying that currently 1! bitcoin transaction costs so much electricity like 1.75 normal US households use in a day.

We can't let all these miners survive artificially by raising the fees. The amount of miners need to be trimmed down and the bitcoin security be more power efficient. That was always happening and it should and can't be held up artificially. The bitcoin network would be still very very secure with less miners.

Unfortunately miners are the mighty ones in the game. We only can hope that the sane one are the biggest ones. And that they see the need of bitcoin adoption for getting future profits.

That is a sick amount of power... So mining one block consumes the power of a full city? That is insane and not sustainable, especially if it keeps rising...

I do agree that's a lot to secure this level of Bitcoin transactions as of today. But I also read that current amount of hashing power is enough to secure even a 100 fold increase in the transaction number and user number. So to say, if we would have 100 million users, the network would be secured with today's hash rate.

That's why I don't understand the opponents of the block size increase. Bitcoin has to scale in order to be sustainable in the long run! For that we need bigger blocks!
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1007
September 02, 2015, 02:47:05 PM
#78
A good argument against the bitcoiners that demand 1MB blocksize because "Miners have to be rewarded" is the electricity that goes away with that. I recently read an article about a study saying that currently 1! bitcoin transaction costs so much electricity like 1.75 normal US households use in a day.

We can't let all these miners survive artificially by raising the fees. The amount of miners need to be trimmed down and the bitcoin security be more power efficient. That was always happening and it should and can't be held up artificially. The bitcoin network would be still very very secure with less miners.

Unfortunately miners are the mighty ones in the game. We only can hope that the sane one are the biggest ones. And that they see the need of bitcoin adoption for getting future profits.

That is a sick amount of power... So mining one block consumes the power of a full city? That is insane and not sustainable, especially if it keeps rising...
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
September 02, 2015, 02:44:17 PM
#77
Some idiots are still running nodes on Raspberry Pis or Beagle Bones.
Exactly what is so idiotic about supporting the Bitcoin network by running dedicated devices as nodes (like Raspberry Pis) ?

Yeah, why don't you buy 2 TB SSD to everybody in Bitcoin community Mr. Donator Legendary rich fella? Almost everybody in this community wants to run Bitcoin Core as node.
Or you want to limit node usage to some secret elite society? More centralization is definitely a good idea, huh?

Why would you need 2 TB SSD to store 512 MB of data? (we are talking about running a node here, right?) Even if you wanted to store the full blockchain 2 TB HDDs are cheap and would be enough for long time to the future.

The block chain size alone is 40 GB> right now. Where'd you get those 512 MB of data? o.o You need to have the full copy of the block chain since the genesis block to become a full node.
He's talking about blockchain pruning -- currently possible with Core client. Though it's not a full node really until UTXO commitments are in place. You still need full nodes to do initial sync and full validation, and someone must be running them.
legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1352
Cashback 15%
September 02, 2015, 02:18:24 PM
#76
Some idiots are still running nodes on Raspberry Pis or Beagle Bones.
Exactly what is so idiotic about supporting the Bitcoin network by running dedicated devices as nodes (like Raspberry Pis) ?

Yeah, why don't you buy 2 TB SSD to everybody in Bitcoin community Mr. Donator Legendary rich fella? Almost everybody in this community wants to run Bitcoin Core as node.
Or you want to limit node usage to some secret elite society? More centralization is definitely a good idea, huh?

Why would you need 2 TB SSD to store 512 MB of data? (we are talking about running a node here, right?) Even if you wanted to store the full blockchain 2 TB HDDs are cheap and would be enough for long time to the future.

The block chain size alone is 40 GB> right now. Where'd you get those 512 MB of data? o.o You need to have the full copy of the block chain since the genesis block to become a full node.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
September 02, 2015, 02:12:08 PM
#75
it will take a lot of time until the bitcoin network will have enough adoption to fill 8 MB Blocks.

It won't take a lot of time until DoS 'stress tests' fill up 8 MB blocks.


for now this is a non existing problem.

 Roll Eyes

Quote
Miners are struggling with blocks far smaller than 750KB blocks and resorting to SPV mining
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010283.html

The existing problem is that you don't know WTF you're talking about. 
sr. member
Activity: 473
Merit: 250
August 31, 2015, 07:37:36 AM
#74
This chart says it all



For broadcasting large blocks, it will take 0.25 second for each KB to reach every nodes. So 1MB blocks would take 250 seconds e.g. more than 4 minutes to reach all the network, or 80 seconds to reach majority of the network

It is easy to calculate, for 8MB blocks, it will take 32 minutes to reach all the nodes, or 10.6 minutes to reach majority of nodes, it is obviously too slow, the next block is already mined before the previous one arrived, so the previous one is always orphaned, the network will be segmented

http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~rich/class/cs290-cloud/papers/bitcoin-delay.pdf

Of course there will be workarounds to broadcast only the block header first then followed by the block, but that function is not implemented yet and have its own weakness. Currently some chinese miners try to include as little transaction as possible to increase the speed of their block's broadcasting

First, it will take a lot of time until the bitcoin network will have enough adoption to fill 8 MB Blocks.

Second... there is a network that is used to propagate blocks fast to get above 50%. Which is what it needs to not being orphaned anymore. That network was set up for exactly that reason and it can propagate full 1MB blocks very fast. Only a couple seconds.

That was done to show that miners don't need to create 1 transaction blocks in order to have an advantage in propagation.

So for now this is a non existing problem.
sr. member
Activity: 473
Merit: 250
August 31, 2015, 07:32:23 AM
#73
Why would you need 2 TB SSD to store 512 MB of data? (we are talking about running a node here, right?) Even if you wanted to store the full blockchain 2 TB HDDs are cheap and would be enough for long time to the future.

How do you maintain all blockchain when block size limit will be 8 MB? Blockchain is almost 50 GB already. It'll be 63 GB before new year. Imagine we see 8 MB blocks every 10 minutes. Even 2 TB would be obsolete in 5 years.
If you don't want any problems you don't store your blockchain in HDD. You need a good SSD. Running Bitcoin Core is very expensive even right now.

Then where will all these transactions come from suddenly? You know that the 1MB blocks were not full until the spamming began? It is not imaginable that suddenly 8MB blocks are always happening. Even spammers could not afford these costs.

So you shouldn't fear these block sizes.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 4418
Crypto Swap Exchange
August 30, 2015, 12:03:10 AM
#72
Why would you need 2 TB SSD to store 512 MB of data? (we are talking about running a node here, right?) Even if you wanted to store the full blockchain 2 TB HDDs are cheap and would be enough for long time to the future.

How do you maintain all blockchain when block size limit will be 8 MB? Blockchain is almost 50 GB already. It'll be 63 GB before new year. Imagine we see 8 MB blocks every 10 minutes. Even 2 TB would be obsolete in 5 years.
If you don't want any problems you don't store your blockchain in HDD. You need a good SSD. Running Bitcoin Core is very expensive even right now.
SSD is not a viable option for most. SSD is quite expensive due to the speed and they don't help much except in the initial synchronization when it would help to speed up the synchronizing process. But headers-first synchronization would have already speed up this process largely already, when block pruning is implemented fully, most don't need to store the entire blockchain. SPV clients are pretty much the option for everyone, they offer good features while occupying small space.

Bandwidth don't come at a cheap price and some ISP in the world have cap on the bandwidth. This could pose as a problem.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
August 29, 2015, 11:40:35 PM
#71

Besides the technical challenges for 8MB blocks (verification and propagation), there are even more difficult economic entailments:





If you want to prevent formation/maturation of fee markets sufficient to replace block subsidies, raising the maximum size is the best way to do it.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1003
𝓗𝓞𝓓𝓛
August 29, 2015, 11:33:46 PM
#70
afaik some bandwidth problem for miners(chinese) and probably the fact that 8MB is not a final solution, because you need to fork again in the future, that will arise all the same problems, that we are facing right now, for this size increase
[IMHO]
I believe this problem would solved in the future, just like internet speed it will always increase to higher speed.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
August 29, 2015, 11:08:04 PM
#69
This chart says it all



For broadcasting large blocks, it will take 0.25 second for each KB to reach every nodes. So 1MB blocks would take 250 seconds e.g. more than 4 minutes to reach all the network, or 80 seconds to reach majority of the network

It is easy to calculate, for 8MB blocks, it will take 32 minutes to reach all the nodes, or 10.6 minutes to reach majority of nodes, it is obviously too slow, the next block is already mined before the previous one arrived, so the previous one is always orphaned, the network will be segmented

http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~rich/class/cs290-cloud/papers/bitcoin-delay.pdf

Of course there will be workarounds to broadcast only the block header first then followed by the block, but that function is not implemented yet and have its own weakness. Currently some chinese miners try to include as little transaction as possible to increase the speed of their block's broadcasting
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
August 29, 2015, 10:32:13 AM
#68
If you don't want any problems you don't store your blockchain in HDD. You need a good SSD. Running Bitcoin Core is very expensive even right now.

And why exactly is that?

I think my HDD can handle writing a 8MB block every 10 min, luckily I also have some RAM, doesn't your PC?
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