What can greece central bank do? | Bitcointalksearch.org

AtheistAKASaneBrain

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Quote from: lissandra on September 02, 2015, 07:00:56 PM

We basically need a true capitalism in a sense.

Cause those bails out and failed banks that did get one is a form of socialism. So the true meaning goes, socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor (making people think its all equal).

Haha I just laugh at the picture I posted there. Actually it can be paid off partially with negative interest rates which = a huge robbery / bail-in of the savers funds.

But after all funds are stolen, you have to print again money to pay off the rest, which will end up the same as it was before. Its a cancerous system.

I agree that pure capitalism is needed, not this corporate-communist central planned system, but good luck selling that to your average 70 IQ socialist, who actually benefits from this ponzi scheme by getting tons of welfare.

What is pure capitalism to you? 0% taxes on anything and no public services?
What happens with the people that legitimately need welfare and what happens with the people that fail to make a living and resort to crime to get basic needs covered?

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: wxa7115 on September 01, 2015, 12:43:24 PM

While you are correct, these persons don’t seem to be able to change their ways. I have been reading that some of the solutions that economist has been pondering are: multiple reserve currencies and IMF SDR.

IMF SDR is especially frightening for me, because it’s basically the equivalent of a world currency.

The SDR's are not a big deal, they are just a basket of currencies or a derivative of them (that can be printed too as a unique asset).

It's basically a derivative of a basket of toilet papers, which is worth the same.

C`mon it's all fiat toilet paper money, why it would be anything different?

Quote from: Nautiluss on September 01, 2015, 04:12:26 PM

the question is when or not if, it blows up in our face.

what will we do then? lol. I mean its not a laughing matter, but I laugh because I wouldnt be able to handle the truth if I saw my dollars worth nothing.

It wont be that quick, so you will have enough time to change your dollars.

I would be more afraid of bank bail-in, so if you hold your dollars in a bank, then they can just rob you.

Nowadays its not you who robs the bank, but the bank is that robs you.

lissandra

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Quote from: johnyj on August 29, 2015, 08:22:35 AM

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The government usually creates "hole digger jobs" as in: dig the hole morning and fill it up afternoon. And magically in the world of fairytales that is supposed to help the economy...

This method works because government can always pay these hole diggers' salary with newly created fiat money. And because everyone accept fiat money as payment medium, these hole diggers could in turn spend their fiat money and they will become every business' big customer

So, as long as people want to make money, these hole diggers can help to distribute the printed money. The amazing thing is that people will always work more and produce more goods and services when they see more money, so inflation is never a concern when more money is entering economy in a controlled way

The whole system works because people believe the fiat money that hole diggers give them has real value, and this belief is almost unshakable

Yep its a horrible scam, you work on your worthless job (which doesnt help the economy) hard for a scam reward.

I start to think that they are not even stealing money from you since fiat currency is not even money, so theft doesn't happen.

It's more like a confidence scam, or a master mind manipulation, to control your mind via worthless toiled paper currency.

Gold,silver and bitcoin is money, but fiat currency is not money, its just a worthless currency, that is due to ignorance, accepted by everybody.

Sadly when reality comes in, and this delusional fairytale economy gets blown away, people will be very disappointed and angry. And since the only person to be blamed is the person itself, yet people will still find others to blame, so another era of civil war and discrimination could happen.

Just think about it, when you work 22 days a month and at the end of month, your boss gives you a bag of air, you should demand from him to give your a real compensation of your work, and not a bag of air. Similarly its not the boss that is the guilty here, because he was stupid too to accept a bag of air as payment when he sold his product or service.

Thus if people (both worker and entrepreneur) would demand to be paid in real money, not in a sack of hot air, we could change the economy pretty fast.

We basically need a true capitalism in a sense.

Cause those bails out and failed banks that did get one is a form of socialism. So the true meaning goes, socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor (making people think its all equal).

techgeek

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greece will continue being greece.

its a history for a reason though, and mistakes are always going to be the same but just in a different form.

if I were a greek citizen i would of folded up my business and move forcefully to somewhere else.

just liks this op has lost 700k. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/my-bank-accounts-got-robbed-by-european-commission-over-700k-is-lost-160292

mrhelpful

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Quote from: ashour on September 01, 2015, 04:58:36 PM

They can't do much. The whole situation with Greece will implode in the future. The EU will keep lending money until the rest of the EU gets fed up and starts Riot in order to block further loans to Greece. Only the people can stop this whole mess, but since people get a paycheck, house, car etc they won't care at all once one of this is in risk to disappear the people will wake up and say enough is enough with the greek loans.

I dont know. The EU can afford to lose anymore money, but cutting off the supply should help them.

Theres the whole situation where if EU will no longer consider greece as the euro. And who knows they might try to sell their debt to other countries like u.s. or buy some of it.

funkenstein

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Quote from: HarHarHar9965 on September 02, 2015, 12:04:27 AM

Does Greece somehow magically discover a great source in their country and boost tourism and expand economy and be half as much as the great country they were once believed to be? Tongue

So let me get this straight: you think collecting counterfeit tokens pushed by secretive foreign scamcoin operators is the ultimate definition of a great country?

HarHarHar9965

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Quote from: ashour on September 01, 2015, 04:58:36 PM

They can't do much. The whole situation with Greece will implode in the future. The EU will keep lending money until the rest of the EU gets fed up and starts Riot in order to block further loans to Greece. Only the people can stop this whole mess, but since people get a paycheck, house, car etc they won't care at all once one of this is in risk to disappear the people will wake up and say enough is enough with the greek loans.

So what do you conclude that how it all ends for them? Does Euro eventually cut off with Greece and take over their land? Does Greece sell it off eventually and then further proceed to be more irrelevant? Does somebody else fund Greece in the future to keep them alive, up and running? Does Greece somehow magically discover a great source in their country and boost tourism and expand economy and be half as much as the great country they were once believed to be? Tongue

ashour

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They can't do much. The whole situation with Greece will implode in the future. The EU will keep lending money until the rest of the EU gets fed up and starts Riot in order to block further loans to Greece. Only the people can stop this whole mess, but since people get a paycheck, house, car etc they won't care at all once one of this is in risk to disappear the people will wake up and say enough is enough with the greek loans.

Nautiluss

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on August 30, 2015, 01:38:53 AM

Quote from: johnyj on August 29, 2015, 10:11:14 PM

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Thus if people (both worker and entrepreneur) would demand to be paid in real money, not in a sack of hot air, we could change the economy pretty fast.

When John Law first issued his fiat money, he applied real bills doctrine, later known as the "doctrine of the old Bank Directors of 1810: that so long as a bank issues its notes only in the discount of good bills, at not more than sixty days' date, it cannot go wrong in issuing as many as the public will receive from it."

Obviously today's fiat money system is a highly upgraded version of that practice, first they don't have real bill as backing any more, second those fiat money are not limited to validity of 60 days, but forever. It seems the general public are much more stupid than 200 years ago, thus larger scale of scam can be carried out without being noticed

Yes todays monetary system is a total ponzi scheme. 96% of the currency supply is created by bond swapping with the central bank and banks acting as middleman, then loaning their fake money out at a 0% reserve ratio. Forget QE, when the bank gives out a loan it creates more money than a QE can ever do.

All loans have interest on them , so the total debt of the country will always be bigger than the maximum money supply. Thus by the laws of mathematics you cannot ever pay back the debt , because when a new piece of currency comes into existence, the cumulative interest on it will be bigger than the currency itself.

So even if you take all the money to pay back the debt, it wont be enough. So by definition its a ponzi scheme.

the question is when or not if, it blows up in our face.

what will we do then? lol. I mean its not a laughing matter, but I laugh because I wouldnt be able to handle the truth if I saw my dollars worth nothing.

wxa7115

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Quote from: wxa7115 on August 31, 2015, 11:53:37 AM

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Quote from: wxa7115 on August 30, 2015, 01:53:26 PM

This, while fiat currency is bad enough, in my opinion the greatest problem is fractional reserve banking which basically allows banks to print 10 times more money than the central bank does (and central banks are not even part of the government, they are private banks, anyway).

In certain cases the reserve ratio is 0%, so they can print money out of thin air, the commercial banks too.

Yes but I agree, if the reserve ratio would be 100%, but the fiat currency would not have gold backing, then it theoretically could work.

The problem is that corruption is in human nature, and you cant put the wolf guarding the henhouse, because you know that eventually he cannot resist the urge.

So to eliminate the corruption, the only way is, to eliminate it by making it physically impossible to do it. Otherwise it will still happen, because people will eventually give in to their urges.

Correct, but it’s very obvious that not a single one of those in power want to change to system since they benefit handsomely from it. And even the average Joe doesn’t want to change the system out of convenience.

The only solutions are Gold and Silver, or a Cryptocurrency. However in order for the Gold and Silver solution to work we’ll need to go back in time and start to use Gold and Silver coins again (cannot use receipts as we have done in the past, because governments could stop redeeming the receipts for gold end we’ll back at square one), which is unlikely.

So a Cryptocurrency (like Bitcoin) will be our best option since it cannot be printed into oblivion and offers all the benefits of modern technology.

Eventually they will have too, because they know that the people are fed up with it, and it will crash anyway, so they cant just reset it and start over.

If they are wise and intelligent then they rather change it now, and still be in power in the next system.

But if they are dumb, then other intelligent people will take their place, and their power. (There are other innovative billionaires, ready to take their place anytime).

So the fight is not poor vs rich, its innovative rich (the new crop of rich guys) vs establishment rich (the old powers).

While you are correct, these persons don’t seem to be able to change their ways. I have been reading that some of the solutions that economist has been pondering are: multiple reserve currencies and IMF SDR.

IMF SDR is especially frightening for me, because it’s basically the equivalent of a world currency.

techgeek

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on August 29, 2015, 10:13:29 AM

Quote from: wxa7115 on August 29, 2015, 10:07:12 AM

I agree completely with this, currency is just a name for fake money and since you receive fake money then you do fake work.

This reminds me of the phrase… “We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us”(or something like that).

It's something like this, man I saw this scene and I laughted that I almost fell on the floor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdAmYT3x480

This scene pretty much sums up the whole economy in 1 minute Cheesy

That bocus money cycle, continue to rob us every year is the IRS.

The form of tax itself, is just crippling for most house holds and then people wonder why they dont have enough to spend. While the rich only pay like 5-15%.

wxa7115

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Quote from: wxa7115 on August 30, 2015, 01:53:26 PM

This, while fiat currency is bad enough, in my opinion the greatest problem is fractional reserve banking which basically allows banks to print 10 times more money than the central bank does (and central banks are not even part of the government, they are private banks, anyway).

In certain cases the reserve ratio is 0%, so they can print money out of thin air, the commercial banks too.

Yes but I agree, if the reserve ratio would be 100%, but the fiat currency would not have gold backing, then it theoretically could work.

The problem is that corruption is in human nature, and you cant put the wolf guarding the henhouse, because you know that eventually he cannot resist the urge.

So to eliminate the corruption, the only way is, to eliminate it by making it physically impossible to do it. Otherwise it will still happen, because people will eventually give in to their urges.

Correct, but it’s very obvious that not a single one of those in power want to change to system since they benefit handsomely from it. And even the average Joe doesn’t want to change the system out of convenience.

The only solutions are Gold and Silver, or a Cryptocurrency. However in order for the Gold and Silver solution to work we’ll need to go back in time and start to use Gold and Silver coins again (cannot use receipts as we have done in the past, because governments could stop redeeming the receipts for gold end we’ll back at square one), which is unlikely.

So a Cryptocurrency (like Bitcoin) will be our best option since it cannot be printed into oblivion and offers all the benefits of modern technology.

wxa7115

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on August 30, 2015, 01:38:53 AM

Quote from: johnyj on August 29, 2015, 10:11:14 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Thus if people (both worker and entrepreneur) would demand to be paid in real money, not in a sack of hot air, we could change the economy pretty fast.

When John Law first issued his fiat money, he applied real bills doctrine, later known as the "doctrine of the old Bank Directors of 1810: that so long as a bank issues its notes only in the discount of good bills, at not more than sixty days' date, it cannot go wrong in issuing as many as the public will receive from it."

Obviously today's fiat money system is a highly upgraded version of that practice, first they don't have real bill as backing any more, second those fiat money are not limited to validity of 60 days, but forever. It seems the general public are much more stupid than 200 years ago, thus larger scale of scam can be carried out without being noticed

Yes todays monetary system is a total ponzi scheme. 96% of the currency supply is created by bond swapping with the central bank and banks acting as middleman, then loaning their fake money out at a 0% reserve ratio. Forget QE, when the bank gives out a loan it creates more money than a QE can ever do.

All loans have interest on them , so the total debt of the country will always be bigger than the maximum money supply. Thus by the laws of mathematics you cannot ever pay back the debt , because when a new piece of currency comes into existence, the cumulative interest on it will be bigger than the currency itself.

So even if you take all the money to pay back the debt, it wont be enough. So by definition its a ponzi scheme.

This, while fiat currency is bad enough, in my opinion the greatest problem is fractional reserve banking which basically allows banks to print 10 times more money than the central bank does (and central banks are not even part of the government, they are private banks, anyway).

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: johnyj on August 29, 2015, 10:11:14 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Thus if people (both worker and entrepreneur) would demand to be paid in real money, not in a sack of hot air, we could change the economy pretty fast.

When John Law first issued his fiat money, he applied real bills doctrine, later known as the "doctrine of the old Bank Directors of 1810: that so long as a bank issues its notes only in the discount of good bills, at not more than sixty days' date, it cannot go wrong in issuing as many as the public will receive from it."

Obviously today's fiat money system is a highly upgraded version of that practice, first they don't have real bill as backing any more, second those fiat money are not limited to validity of 60 days, but forever. It seems the general public are much more stupid than 200 years ago, thus larger scale of scam can be carried out without being noticed

Yes todays monetary system is a total ponzi scheme. 96% of the currency supply is created by bond swapping with the central bank and banks acting as middleman, then loaning their fake money out at a 0% reserve ratio. Forget QE, when the bank gives out a loan it creates more money than a QE can ever do.

All loans have interest on them , so the total debt of the country will always be bigger than the maximum money supply. Thus by the laws of mathematics you cannot ever pay back the debt , because when a new piece of currency comes into existence, the cumulative interest on it will be bigger than the currency itself.

So even if you take all the money to pay back the debt, it wont be enough. So by definition its a ponzi scheme.

johnyj

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Thus if people (both worker and entrepreneur) would demand to be paid in real money, not in a sack of hot air, we could change the economy pretty fast.

When John Law first issued his fiat money, he applied real bills doctrine, later known as the "doctrine of the old Bank Directors of 1810: that so long as a bank issues its notes only in the discount of good bills, at not more than sixty days' date, it cannot go wrong in issuing as many as the public will receive from it."

Obviously today's fiat money system is a highly upgraded version of that practice, first they don't have real bill as backing any more, second those fiat money are not limited to validity of 60 days, but forever. It seems the general public are much more stupid than 200 years ago, thus larger scale of scam can be carried out without being noticed

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: wxa7115 on August 29, 2015, 10:07:12 AM

I agree completely with this, currency is just a name for fake money and since you receive fake money then you do fake work.

This reminds me of the phrase… “We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us”(or something like that).

It's something like this, man I saw this scene and I laughted that I almost fell on the floor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdAmYT3x480

This scene pretty much sums up the whole economy in 1 minute Cheesy

wxa7115

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Quote from: johnyj on August 29, 2015, 08:22:35 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

The government usually creates "hole digger jobs" as in: dig the hole morning and fill it up afternoon. And magically in the world of fairytales that is supposed to help the economy...

This method works because government can always pay these hole diggers' salary with newly created fiat money. And because everyone accept fiat money as payment medium, these hole diggers could in turn spend their fiat money and they will become every business' big customer

So, as long as people want to make money, these hole diggers can help to distribute the printed money. The amazing thing is that people will always work more and produce more goods and services when they see more money, so inflation is never a concern when more money is entering economy in a controlled way

The whole system works because people believe the fiat money that hole diggers give them has real value, and this belief is almost unshakable

Yep its a horrible scam, you work on your worthless job (which doesnt help the economy) hard for a scam reward.

I start to think that they are not even stealing money from you since fiat currency is not even money, so theft doesn't happen.

Gold,silver and bitcoin is money, but fiat currency is not money, its just a worthless currency, that is due to ignorance, accepted by everybody.

Sadly when reality comes in, and this delusional fairytale economy gets blown away, people will be very disappointed and angry. And since the only person to be blamed is the person itself, yet people will still find others to blame, so another era of civil war and discrimination could happen.

Just think about it, when you work 22 days a month and at the end of month, your boss gives you a bag of air, you should demand from him to give your a real compensation of your work, and not a bag of air. Similarly its not the boss that is the guilty here, because he was stupid too to accept a bag of air as payment when he sold his product or service.

Thus if people (both worker and entrepreneur) would demand to be paid in real money, not in a sack of hot air, we could change the economy pretty fast.

I agree completely with this, currency is just a name for fake money and since you receive fake money then you do fake work.

This reminds me of the phrase… “We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us”(or something like that).

johnyj

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Quote from: ?? on ??

The government usually creates "hole digger jobs" as in: dig the hole morning and fill it up afternoon. And magically in the world of fairytales that is supposed to help the economy...

This method works because government can always pay these hole diggers' salary with newly created fiat money. And because everyone accept fiat money as payment medium, these hole diggers could in turn spend their fiat money and they will become every business' big customer

So, as long as people want to make money, these hole diggers can help to distribute the printed money. The amazing thing is that people will always work more and produce more goods and services when they see more money, so inflation is never a concern when more money is entering economy in a controlled way

The whole system works because people believe the fiat money that hole diggers give them has real value, and this belief is almost unshakable

Gronthaing

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on August 22, 2015, 07:29:00 PM

Actually unemployment is more like 40-45 %

The official data books are cooked.

Plus they count in partial jobs, which are not jobs, public sector jobs, which is a burden on the economy and doesnt produce any wealth.

You're saying there are maybe 70 million people unemployed in the euro area. That's a lot more than the official 17 million. I don't think that's realistic. But you're right in saying that they may be counting things that shouldn't be like part time jobs when people are underemployed. But public sector jobs aren't necessarily a burden on the economy. They can be but depends on how they are being used. For example many times they look like it because they are used as a stimulus to private companies and so don't show a profit. But that's not because they are always inefficient or a waste.

Quote from: RealBitcoin on August 22, 2015, 07:29:00 PM

Not to mention that they only count you unemployed if you have applied for welfare, but after your welfare ends, you wont be counted unemployed anymore, yet you still dont have a job.

Most 20-30 year olds dont have a job, they live with their parents, yet they are not eligible for welfare since they got a "household income", but they are not counted as unemployed. I know this from experience because most of my neighbors are in this situation.

Yet they have big student debs, while they dont have a job, or they are finishing their 3rd worthless university.

It's a fucking deception going on right under your nose.

I suppose that depends on the country. Where are you from? And are you sure you aren't counted as unemployed if your welfare ends? Didn't know about that. Is that a common policy throughout the euro area?

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Quote from: Pab on August 24, 2015, 08:23:55 PM

Finland is with Euro,nordic country,thay are now facing very deep crisis

Much better for any country is to manage his own monetary policy

I heard that from a few years back Finnish people are no longer learning swedish in their school, traditionally they all learn swedish in school and talks good swedish. Maybe they would start to learn German some years later

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