What do you think about Casino with 0% Edge? - page 5.

Forumgeiq

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Quote from: just_Alice on June 22, 2017, 05:03:50 AM

Although it looks like it is pointless to create such casino, with 0% Edge, I think apart from what I mentioned before, earning money from ads on the site, there is another possibility for such site to be created. Imagine you are a poker player and you have many friends who are like you. You are fed up with giving your money to poker sites and you create a site of your own, for you and for your friends to play.

I believe the OP talks about Edgless, an edgeless casino project on Ethereum. They had their ICO back in March and have been developing since than. Even with %0 Edge casino still can earn through the profits. Read the Edgeless whitepaper. It's pretty mathematical actually.

This is from the Edgeless FAQ:

Quote

Casino profits and 0% (0.83% in practise) house edge concept.

There are several ways how Edgeless Casino can be profitable. Edgeless Casino provides games which depend on LUCK+SKILL and Sports Betting.

The first two games provided will be Blackjack and Video Poker. Both games are played with a combination of LUCK and SKILL. That means players make choices and either play well or poorly. To give an example of such a situation:

Blackjack:
House has a 6 card.
The player has 16.
The player wants to collect at least 17 and hits for one more card. - BAD MISTAKE.
The player just made a huge error, because, 12+ against 6 ALWAYS STAYS. (according to Blackjack basic strategy)

An average player does not play ‘the perfect game’ therefore, in the long run the casino makes a profit from his mistakes.

An analogy can be taken from poker. A new player is playing against a Pro. Both have equal probability conditions - 50% vs. 50%. However, the Pro player makes better choices and the new player makes bad decisions, and in the long run, the Pro wins.

Look at this EXTENSIVE RESEARCH from players’ mistakes in Blackjack - on average they give away an 0.83% edge to the casino. https://wizardofodds.com/image/ask-the-wizard/how-poor-are-bj-players.pdf

And that's exactly what the casino will earn - 0.83% which is the same as playing dice with an 0.83% house edge

The second stream of profit comes from sports betting. Sports Betting connects bettors against each other, charging vig / juice / rake from each side for their bets. In this area, the casino will earn 4% from all money wagered. An analogy can again be taken from poker. Imagine two players are betting 10$ against each other and the rake is 1%. So, they are actually betting 9.90$ and winner gets 19.80$.

More information on how sports betting is making money:
http://www.biasharainsight.com/2016/01/how-do-sport-betting-sites-make-money/

To sum up - the first stream of profits is from games of luck+skill. The second stream of profits is from Edgeless casino with 0% edge games and is a very strong marketing channel for attracting players to Edgeless Casino. Gamblers can enjoy fair betting conditions, and a good percentage of visitors will do Sports Betting which generates 4% returns to the Casino.

The concept has not literally come out of the blue - discussions on zero edge casinos are already occurring in the community.

https://www.bitedge.co/blog/0-house-edge-provably-fair-and-trustless-gambling/

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinGambling/comments/36z3
wi/which_is_the_lowest_house_edge_fair_bitcoin_casino/

FrueGreads

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Quote from: just_Alice on June 22, 2017, 05:03:50 AM

Although it looks like it is pointless to create such casino, with 0% Edge, I think apart from what I mentioned before, earning money from ads on the site, there is another possibility for such site to be created. Imagine you are a poker player and you have many friends who are like you. You are fed up with giving your money to poker sites and you create a site of your own, for you and for your friends to play.

You could be tired of giving money to poker sites, although the rake is not that big, and you do have a lot of tournaments with added money, and freerolls etc, so I don't think you really need to feel that way. Anyway, if you are tired of doing that, you could just end up playing live with friends, I don't think you can create a poker site on your own just like that because you need a lot of money for promotions, you need to be legal etc. It's quite hard to create a good gambling site in my opinion.

gabmen

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Quote from: wahb on June 22, 2017, 02:35:56 PM

Quote from: bhadz on June 22, 2017, 05:15:09 AM

0% edge casino? Hmm that will die on it's early stage of operation. And I know that casino's will not do this, maybe they can do this but they are going to do something or charge every service they do on higher amount. But gamblers are wise now and they won't rely on this type of casino if there's no way to support it's operation.

yes that is right that they cannot survive for a long time. because casino runs on house edge. they can maintain their position if they are receiving their house edge, i think in one condition they can continue to run a casino and that is that if they have some other source of income and they are financing the casino from there. but i think no one will like to run a casino for free if he do not have any income from that. and they will surely close it.

Well there are these casinos also that doesn't pit you against the house. Poker tournaments moat likely won't have any house edges because you're not playing against the casino itself but with other poker players. You basically earn from beating real people and your earnings come from them

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Quote from: erpbridge on June 20, 2017, 12:25:29 PM

Quote from: machinek20 on June 20, 2017, 07:52:55 AM

It sound great for the gambler if that site is legit, but I doubt casino with zero house edge can play fair and how will a casino will survive with zero edge, so no I wont play in the casino that has zero edge, it just sound not right

I think they definitely can. The reason is that gamblers usually keep playing till either they win big or bust. Even at 0% house edge, I am sure things can sway to casino's side where they would eventually win the same amount.

That is a fair point and no one looses only the edge worth. I mean show me a gambler who has gambled one bitcoins and has only lost 0.01, usually we lose much more and we try to go for the glory hit and we loose.

In fact, I remember there have been giveaways by primedice and many others where the house edge was technically positive yet people lost which is normal too. It might mean the dangers of gambling will continue regardless of whether we will be having a normal house edge or zero house edge.

wahb

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Quote from: bhadz on June 22, 2017, 05:15:09 AM

0% edge casino? Hmm that will die on it's early stage of operation. And I know that casino's will not do this, maybe they can do this but they are going to do something or charge every service they do on higher amount. But gamblers are wise now and they won't rely on this type of casino if there's no way to support it's operation.

yes that is right that they cannot survive for a long time. because casino runs on house edge. they can maintain their position if they are receiving their house edge, i think in one condition they can continue to run a casino and that is that if they have some other source of income and they are financing the casino from there. but i think no one will like to run a casino for free if he do not have any income from that. and they will surely close it.

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Quote from: Catmony on June 22, 2017, 12:41:44 PM

I don't think any casino can make good amount of money with 0% house edge, it will make them unstable because if someone got lucky enough to win max win they have multiple times they will get bankrupt. House edge insures that there will be some money taken from every bet to cover all the operating cost.

this is what i am thinking too, because i think how they can operate the site if there are 0% house edge and how long their site will still online? this is a big question from me but if this is really happen, then i am curious with the site and i want to see until when they can cover the operating cost.

NorrisK

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One way a casino can still profit this way is from mistakes the gamblers make.

If they win some small bets and then decide to bet big and lose, that can still turn into a profit for the casino.

Otherwise I'm not sure about the business model here.

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Quote from: machinek20 on June 20, 2017, 07:52:55 AM

It sound great for the gambler if that site is legit, but I doubt casino with zero house edge can play fair and how will a casino will survive with zero edge, so no I wont play in the casino that has zero edge, it just sound not right

Yes, indeed and the maintenance cost and the developing of game would be gone from the pocket of the casino owner. I believe there is one way to do this though, by placing a lot of ads and trying to earn via those, though google adsense does not allow gambling sites for their ads.
This way maybe the casino can earn something while considering the game as a charity for people and rather than house they might introduce a player vs player game to disallow any loss.

Catmony

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I don't think any casino can make good amount of money with 0% house edge, it will make them unstable because if someone got lucky enough to win max win they have multiple times they will get bankrupt. House edge insures that there will be some money taken from every bet to cover all the operating cost.

michkima

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Quote from: coinplus on June 22, 2017, 06:22:36 AM

Quote from: Jewell on June 19, 2017, 05:31:18 PM

Quote from: Pettuh4 on June 19, 2017, 05:06:44 PM

I don't think it's practical because the casinos need to make their money and offset their bills and staff salaries so with a 0% house edge it's just unfair and unrealistic for them to survive in business.

yes that is right that it can not be possible and I do not think that any Casino can continue wit 0% edge for a long time. they must change their policy if they want to survive for a long time. because most of the casinos run on their hose edge and if they are not have any hose edge then they may not be able to continue surviving for a long time and very soon they will become bankrupt and will close their casino because of their continuous lost.

I agree with you but that no edge casino may happen as a promotional offer and maybe to VIP members they can give a truly low or no edge.

Sites are already giving lot's of features like rakeback or loss back and it won't be a disaster if they allow no edge for high leveled members or maybe for those who want to enjoy no edge gambling, there can be a PvP game, side wise the site would have normal dice.

Wrong. Edgeless casinos does not mean they will not win in the long run. Statistically, house edge gives the house that edge over the player. Meaning an infinite number of games will result that the casino will win against the gamblers. But being edgeless, means that the house has no advantage over the players. This does not mean the players will win against the casino. This just means that an infinite number of games, the score will be equal if there is no restriction against the amount of bet for the gambler.

Statistically speaking, in an edgeless casino there is still a chance the gambler can lose 100 times in a row. It does not mean the casino was cheating, it just means that there is that chance though it might be small.

coinplus

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Quote from: Jewell on June 19, 2017, 05:31:18 PM

Quote from: Pettuh4 on June 19, 2017, 05:06:44 PM

I don't think it's practical because the casinos need to make their money and offset their bills and staff salaries so with a 0% house edge it's just unfair and unrealistic for them to survive in business.

yes that is right that it can not be possible and I do not think that any Casino can continue wit 0% edge for a long time. they must change their policy if they want to survive for a long time. because most of the casinos run on their hose edge and if they are not have any hose edge then they may not be able to continue surviving for a long time and very soon they will become bankrupt and will close their casino because of their continuous lost.

I agree with you but that no edge casino may happen as a promotional offer and maybe to VIP members they can give a truly low or no edge.

Sites are already giving lot's of features like rakeback or loss back and it won't be a disaster if they allow no edge for high leveled members or maybe for those who want to enjoy no edge gambling, there can be a PvP game, side wise the site would have normal dice.

bhadz

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0% edge casino? Hmm that will die on it's early stage of operation. And I know that casino's will not do this, maybe they can do this but they are going to do something or charge every service they do on higher amount. But gamblers are wise now and they won't rely on this type of casino if there's no way to support it's operation.

EdenHazard

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Quote from: fullypak on June 20, 2017, 01:00:22 PM

Quote from: EdenHazard on June 20, 2017, 12:49:24 PM

Quote from: Jewell on June 19, 2017, 05:31:18 PM

Quote from: Pettuh4 on June 19, 2017, 05:06:44 PM

I don't think it's practical because the casinos need to make their money and offset their bills and staff salaries so with a 0% house edge it's just unfair and unrealistic for them to survive in business.

yes that is right that it can not be possible and I do not think that any Casino can continue wit 0% edge for a long time. they must change their policy if they want to survive for a long time. because most of the casinos run on their hose edge and if they are not have any hose edge then they may not be able to continue surviving for a long time and very soon they will become bankrupt and will close their casino because of their continuous lost.

you guys need to completely understand about what actually house edge means and how it really works before join more serious discussion , i myself don't fully understand yet about that , the only i know that the house edge are thing that give casino profit and it is unseen.

0% house edge works only on a player vs player game and the casino take fee as their profit .

The good question before discussing this topic first we must know what is the 0% house edge means. It means the house will not come in between two players you people will play with betting some amount and the house will take care of that bet so that they will charge some percentage of overall bet amount. This is what I understood if it is wrong, please clarify this. Thank you.

nahhh you have an easy to understand words , thanks for elaborate a little about this. so basically the casino have profit from taking fee per bet that have been made right? and it is not based on the total bets placed , but more to percentage to make it fair.

the only problem are there is lack of interest casinos doing this concept.

just_Alice

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Although it looks like it is pointless to create such casino, with 0% Edge, I think apart from what I mentioned before, earning money from ads on the site, there is another possibility for such site to be created. Imagine you are a poker player and you have many friends who are like you. You are fed up with giving your money to poker sites and you create a site of your own, for you and for your friends to play.

Humanxlemming

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Fact is i think that if there's some casino that have 0% House Edge (HE). I think it's not appropriate because the win/lose changes is 50/50 so there's a possibillity that gamblers can eat all the casino bankroll IMO. anyways it's not appropriate to put 0% HE because there business wouldn't take so long

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Quote from: Pettuh4 on June 19, 2017, 05:06:44 PM

I don't think it's practical because the casinos need to make their money and offset their bills and staff salaries so with a 0% house edge it's just unfair and unrealistic for them to survive in business.

But that been said, I believe the players loose much much more than the 1% of their wager amounts, it is actually fact that the big fish will eat up the smaller one even if there is no edge and if someone opens up a casino like that they will be surely earning good amounts.

All the above, they can see a month and if they see no profit or loss then they can turn up with a house edge and by that time they would have a lot of players too.

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Quote from: piloder on June 21, 2017, 09:31:42 PM

Quote from: ethlover on June 16, 2017, 05:22:40 AM

I just found out about this project of Casino that will be opened and it has 0% Edge and I just thought, seriously, why we pay an edge in online Casinos?

House edge is there to ensure that casino will atleast make some % in profit in long run but we all know casino always wins so they might be collecting more than what they collect from house edge in reality. So casino with 0% house edge can survive but I don't think investors will be happy to invest in such casino.

There is no really casinos with 0% house edge because they will not if they do that, one project I Know is the edgeless, they are saying there is no house edge but in reality there is. At least I for casinos that says they have a certain percentage, they are telling the truth and they are just being transparent, in the world of gambling we need to be smart and clever, whatever out interest is, may we be a player or investors.

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Quote from: ethlover on June 16, 2017, 05:22:40 AM

I just found out about this project of Casino that will be opened and it has 0% Edge and I just thought, seriously, why we pay an edge in online Casinos?

House edge is there to ensure that casino will atleast make some % in profit in long run but we all know casino always wins so they might be collecting more than what they collect from house edge in reality. So casino with 0% house edge can survive but I don't think investors will be happy to invest in such casino.

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Quote from: shintosai on June 21, 2017, 07:12:40 PM

Quote from: iluvbitcoins on June 20, 2017, 06:31:39 PM

Quote from: michaelch on June 20, 2017, 06:26:37 PM

I would be surprised if all their games are 0% house edge. I'm sure they only have a few games that are 0%, because they still need to pay bills, their initial investment and make a profit.

If they're really running everything at 0% for the long-term, I would be slightly suspicious if their games are fair or not

What if it's a "casino" that's only player based? Like, you win based on other peoples losses
The website just gets advertising profits
Wouldn't be conventional, but would certainly be interesting

Considering that mate it would take a lots of advertisement and needed a lots of players/gamblers for that site to survive or the owner will use free domain and other stuff just create one but its another problem who will be willing to take the risk when you see untrusted site like this that will hold your funds.

That would really create a lot of work for the owner to do such thing and I think that most advertisers wouldn't invest in such type of casino sites especially if it's not really appetizing to the eyes of the gamblers.

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Quote from: crwth on June 21, 2017, 07:14:19 PM

Quote from: serjent05 on June 21, 2017, 06:48:56 PM

Quote from: iluvbitcoins on June 20, 2017, 06:31:39 PM

Quote from: michaelch on June 20, 2017, 06:26:37 PM

I would be surprised if all their games are 0% house edge. I'm sure they only have a few games that are 0%, because they still need to pay bills, their initial investment and make a profit.

If they're really running everything at 0% for the long-term, I would be slightly suspicious if their games are fair or not

What if it's a "casino" that's only player based? Like, you win based on other peoples losses
The website just gets advertising profits
Wouldn't be conventional, but would certainly be interesting

I also agree that it would be interesting to play in such casino but iguess it is not impossible to play on that one. As far as I know there is a project where they aimed to setup a casino with 0 house edge. With their initial collection, I think they can sustain their project for a very long time. They can also earn from the token allocated to development fund. It would really a great thing for player to have such kind of Casino and would support it.

Probably in the free games that a website has or an online casino, they apply 0% edge there. Just like for trials so that they feel that they could win it and make more money on that website but it's not like that when there is money involved. It's going to be an easy thing for them knowing that they are like that.

These games you say are like those apps for cellphone, tablet, Iphones?

I have seen already this kind of game. Slot-machine games that I played for free on tablet. They give free coins to play and it's possible to win on long term, but it's not for real. I agree with you, seems it's just a strategy of them to make us deposit money on these apps to play for real, and then start losing money... But I'm not sure if they set any house edge officially.

Topic: What do you think about Casino with 0% Edge? - page 5. (Read 3751 times)