what do you think about the way college tuitions keep increasing out of control - page 2.

umair127

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Quote from: zolace on August 08, 2014, 09:02:24 AM

Quote from: umair127 on August 08, 2014, 08:56:21 AM

Quote from: zolace on August 08, 2014, 06:04:29 AM

Quote from: umair127 on August 08, 2014, 05:34:20 AM

Quote from: zolace on August 08, 2014, 05:26:30 AM

Quote from: umair127 on August 08, 2014, 05:18:54 AM

Yep and again, if no one advocates for a debt, it doesn't get paid. You're saying companies are compelled to cover certain debts, yet that implies every situation is one in which the company in question has enough in assets to take care of some if not all their debts. This is not always the case.

You're misunderstanding the issue. Companies are eligible for only two types of bankruptcy: chapter 7 and chapter 11. Chapter 7 is a complete liquidation of the company and its assets, and the company never gets a discharge. But whatever assets are sold and whatever money is left or is raised goes to pay priority creditors first. And employees wages and benefits are essentially first in line to be paid. The upshot is that if anyone is getting paid anything, it is the former employees.

Chapter 11, on the other hand, is a reorganization. Chapter 11 is the only way for a company to get a discharge of its debts. But in order to be eligible for the discharge and exit chapter 11, a company must pay--in full--the claims of its employees, former and current. To be clear, a company cannot go through a chapter 11 without paying these claims.

Companies are required by law to file schedules of all of their debts. The schedules are verified under penalty of perjury by an officer of the company. Lying on the schedules, or failing to schedule known debts, is a bankruptcy crime. Even "honest" mistakes are often harshly punished.

Can individuals do the same thing with their debts? That was the original question or point of contention. Individuals, it appears, do not have the ability to dissolve. Individuals can go to jail, but companies can't--you were told they are liability shelters, which is funny because that's exactly what they are in this context.

Individuals can do better than corporations. They can go through a chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a nearly complete discharge. And it's very immediate and thorough. Plus, individuals have exempt property that they keep (corporations don't). For example, you can keep a car, your retirement accounts, furniture, personal effects, and more. In many states, you can keep your house if you don't have mortgage on it.

Individuals can also go through a chapter 13 where you can keep paying your mortgage and keep your house and you get a "super discharge" which gets rid of even tax debts (except trust fund taxes).

Chapter 11 is also open to individuals, but it's very expensive so most don't use it. If they do, they have to contribute all of their disposable income for 5 years to paying their creditors. When 5 years are done, anything they couldn't pay is discharged forever.

You've identified employee related obligations as a 'must pay' for companies, citing jail time for individuals. Aside from the apparent absurdity, when the individual that went to jail for company debt gets out, does he have to service that debt?

It's not jail time for not paying debts; it's jail time for lying about the debts or failing to disclose them. Remember, the schedules are required to list all known debts and be signed under penalty of perjury. This is a separate issue from wether the debt gets paid. But assuming that the debt is one that moves from the company to the officer, like trust fund taxes do, then the answer is yes, he would have to service the debt. Trust fund taxes are never dischargeable, not even in bankruptcy. The only way to get rid of them is to pay them or settle with the taxing authority.

Does the company? Not unless it's Phoenix Inc.. And all those other debts, the ones that didn't get priority over employee related obligations...who pays for them? It's not Flo from Progressive.

zolace

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Quote from: umair127 on August 08, 2014, 08:56:21 AM

Quote from: zolace on August 08, 2014, 06:04:29 AM

Quote from: umair127 on August 08, 2014, 05:34:20 AM

Quote from: zolace on August 08, 2014, 05:26:30 AM

Quote from: umair127 on August 08, 2014, 05:18:54 AM

Yep and again, if no one advocates for a debt, it doesn't get paid. You're saying companies are compelled to cover certain debts, yet that implies every situation is one in which the company in question has enough in assets to take care of some if not all their debts. This is not always the case.

You're misunderstanding the issue. Companies are eligible for only two types of bankruptcy: chapter 7 and chapter 11. Chapter 7 is a complete liquidation of the company and its assets, and the company never gets a discharge. But whatever assets are sold and whatever money is left or is raised goes to pay priority creditors first. And employees wages and benefits are essentially first in line to be paid. The upshot is that if anyone is getting paid anything, it is the former employees.

Chapter 11, on the other hand, is a reorganization. Chapter 11 is the only way for a company to get a discharge of its debts. But in order to be eligible for the discharge and exit chapter 11, a company must pay--in full--the claims of its employees, former and current. To be clear, a company cannot go through a chapter 11 without paying these claims.

Companies are required by law to file schedules of all of their debts. The schedules are verified under penalty of perjury by an officer of the company. Lying on the schedules, or failing to schedule known debts, is a bankruptcy crime. Even "honest" mistakes are often harshly punished.

Can individuals do the same thing with their debts? That was the original question or point of contention. Individuals, it appears, do not have the ability to dissolve. Individuals can go to jail, but companies can't--you were told they are liability shelters, which is funny because that's exactly what they are in this context.

Individuals can do better than corporations. They can go through a chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a nearly complete discharge. And it's very immediate and thorough. Plus, individuals have exempt property that they keep (corporations don't). For example, you can keep a car, your retirement accounts, furniture, personal effects, and more. In many states, you can keep your house if you don't have mortgage on it.

Individuals can also go through a chapter 13 where you can keep paying your mortgage and keep your house and you get a "super discharge" which gets rid of even tax debts (except trust fund taxes).

Chapter 11 is also open to individuals, but it's very expensive so most don't use it. If they do, they have to contribute all of their disposable income for 5 years to paying their creditors. When 5 years are done, anything they couldn't pay is discharged forever.

You've identified employee related obligations as a 'must pay' for companies, citing jail time for individuals. Aside from the apparent absurdity, when the individual that went to jail for company debt gets out, does he have to service that debt?

It's not jail time for not paying debts; it's jail time for lying about the debts or failing to disclose them. Remember, the schedules are required to list all known debts and be signed under penalty of perjury. This is a separate issue from wether the debt gets paid. But assuming that the debt is one that moves from the company to the officer, like trust fund taxes do, then the answer is yes, he would have to service the debt. Trust fund taxes are never dischargeable, not even in bankruptcy. The only way to get rid of them is to pay them or settle with the taxing authority.

umair127

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Activity: 378

Merit: 250

Quote from: zolace on August 08, 2014, 06:04:29 AM

Quote from: umair127 on August 08, 2014, 05:34:20 AM

Quote from: zolace on August 08, 2014, 05:26:30 AM

Quote from: umair127 on August 08, 2014, 05:18:54 AM

Yep and again, if no one advocates for a debt, it doesn't get paid. You're saying companies are compelled to cover certain debts, yet that implies every situation is one in which the company in question has enough in assets to take care of some if not all their debts. This is not always the case.

You're misunderstanding the issue. Companies are eligible for only two types of bankruptcy: chapter 7 and chapter 11. Chapter 7 is a complete liquidation of the company and its assets, and the company never gets a discharge. But whatever assets are sold and whatever money is left or is raised goes to pay priority creditors first. And employees wages and benefits are essentially first in line to be paid. The upshot is that if anyone is getting paid anything, it is the former employees.

Chapter 11, on the other hand, is a reorganization. Chapter 11 is the only way for a company to get a discharge of its debts. But in order to be eligible for the discharge and exit chapter 11, a company must pay--in full--the claims of its employees, former and current. To be clear, a company cannot go through a chapter 11 without paying these claims.

Companies are required by law to file schedules of all of their debts. The schedules are verified under penalty of perjury by an officer of the company. Lying on the schedules, or failing to schedule known debts, is a bankruptcy crime. Even "honest" mistakes are often harshly punished.

Can individuals do the same thing with their debts? That was the original question or point of contention. Individuals, it appears, do not have the ability to dissolve. Individuals can go to jail, but companies can't--you were told they are liability shelters, which is funny because that's exactly what they are in this context.

Individuals can do better than corporations. They can go through a chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a nearly complete discharge. And it's very immediate and thorough. Plus, individuals have exempt property that they keep (corporations don't). For example, you can keep a car, your retirement accounts, furniture, personal effects, and more. In many states, you can keep your house if you don't have mortgage on it.

Individuals can also go through a chapter 13 where you can keep paying your mortgage and keep your house and you get a "super discharge" which gets rid of even tax debts (except trust fund taxes).

Chapter 11 is also open to individuals, but it's very expensive so most don't use it. If they do, they have to contribute all of their disposable income for 5 years to paying their creditors. When 5 years are done, anything they couldn't pay is discharged forever.

You've identified employee related obligations as a 'must pay' for companies, citing jail time for individuals. Aside from the apparent absurdity, when the individual that went to jail for company debt gets out, does he have to service that debt?

zolace

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: umair127 on August 08, 2014, 05:34:20 AM

Quote from: zolace on August 08, 2014, 05:26:30 AM

Quote from: umair127 on August 08, 2014, 05:18:54 AM

Yep and again, if no one advocates for a debt, it doesn't get paid. You're saying companies are compelled to cover certain debts, yet that implies every situation is one in which the company in question has enough in assets to take care of some if not all their debts. This is not always the case.

You're misunderstanding the issue. Companies are eligible for only two types of bankruptcy: chapter 7 and chapter 11. Chapter 7 is a complete liquidation of the company and its assets, and the company never gets a discharge. But whatever assets are sold and whatever money is left or is raised goes to pay priority creditors first. And employees wages and benefits are essentially first in line to be paid. The upshot is that if anyone is getting paid anything, it is the former employees.

Chapter 11, on the other hand, is a reorganization. Chapter 11 is the only way for a company to get a discharge of its debts. But in order to be eligible for the discharge and exit chapter 11, a company must pay--in full--the claims of its employees, former and current. To be clear, a company cannot go through a chapter 11 without paying these claims.

Companies are required by law to file schedules of all of their debts. The schedules are verified under penalty of perjury by an officer of the company. Lying on the schedules, or failing to schedule known debts, is a bankruptcy crime. Even "honest" mistakes are often harshly punished.

Can individuals do the same thing with their debts? That was the original question or point of contention. Individuals, it appears, do not have the ability to dissolve. Individuals can go to jail, but companies can't--you were told they are liability shelters, which is funny because that's exactly what they are in this context.

Individuals can do better than corporations. They can go through a chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a nearly complete discharge. And it's very immediate and thorough. Plus, individuals have exempt property that they keep (corporations don't). For example, you can keep a car, your retirement accounts, furniture, personal effects, and more. In many states, you can keep your house if you don't have mortgage on it.

Individuals can also go through a chapter 13 where you can keep paying your mortgage and keep your house and you get a "super discharge" which gets rid of even tax debts (except trust fund taxes).

Chapter 11 is also open to individuals, but it's very expensive so most don't use it. If they do, they have to contribute all of their disposable income for 5 years to paying their creditors. When 5 years are done, anything they couldn't pay is discharged forever.

umair127

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 250

Quote from: zolace on August 08, 2014, 05:26:30 AM

Quote from: umair127 on August 08, 2014, 05:18:54 AM

Yep and again, if no one advocates for a debt, it doesn't get paid. You're saying companies are compelled to cover certain debts, yet that implies every situation is one in which the company in question has enough in assets to take care of some if not all their debts. This is not always the case.

You're misunderstanding the issue. Companies are eligible for only two types of bankruptcy: chapter 7 and chapter 11. Chapter 7 is a complete liquidation of the company and its assets, and the company never gets a discharge. But whatever assets are sold and whatever money is left or is raised goes to pay priority creditors first. And employees wages and benefits are essentially first in line to be paid. The upshot is that if anyone is getting paid anything, it is the former employees.

Chapter 11, on the other hand, is a reorganization. Chapter 11 is the only way for a company to get a discharge of its debts. But in order to be eligible for the discharge and exit chapter 11, a company must pay--in full--the claims of its employees, former and current. To be clear, a company cannot go through a chapter 11 without paying these claims.

Companies are required by law to file schedules of all of their debts. The schedules are verified under penalty of perjury by an officer of the company. Lying on the schedules, or failing to schedule known debts, is a bankruptcy crime. Even "honest" mistakes are often harshly punished.

Can individuals do the same thing with their debts? That was the original question or point of contention. Individuals, it appears, do not have the ability to dissolve. Individuals can go to jail, but companies can't--you were told they are liability shelters, which is funny because that's exactly what they are in this context.

zolace

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Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: umair127 on August 08, 2014, 05:18:54 AM

Yep and again, if no one advocates for a debt, it doesn't get paid. You're saying companies are compelled to cover certain debts, yet that implies every situation is one in which the company in question has enough in assets to take care of some if not all their debts. This is not always the case.

You're misunderstanding the issue. Companies are eligible for only two types of bankruptcy: chapter 7 and chapter 11. Chapter 7 is a complete liquidation of the company and its assets, and the company never gets a discharge. But whatever assets are sold and whatever money is left or is raised goes to pay priority creditors first. And employees wages and benefits are essentially first in line to be paid. The upshot is that if anyone is getting paid anything, it is the former employees.

Chapter 11, on the other hand, is a reorganization. Chapter 11 is the only way for a company to get a discharge of its debts. But in order to be eligible for the discharge and exit chapter 11, a company must pay--in full--the claims of its employees, former and current. To be clear, a company cannot go through a chapter 11 without paying these claims.

Companies are required by law to file schedules of all of their debts. The schedules are verified under penalty of perjury by an officer of the company. Lying on the schedules, or failing to schedule known debts, is a bankruptcy crime. Even "honest" mistakes are often harshly punished.

umair127

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Activity: 378

Merit: 250

Yep and again, if no one advocates for a debt, it doesn't get paid. You're saying companies are compelled to cover certain debts, yet that implies every situation is one in which the company in question has enough in assets to take care of some if not all their debts. This is not always the case.

zolace

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Activity: 364

Merit: 250

The corporation has to schedule the debt, and in 99.9% of cases they do. If they knowingly fail to schedule the debt, there are criminal and civil penalties and the officers of the corporation are on the hook. Plus, the officers and directors are on the hook for priority taxes related to employee wages ("trust fund" taxes), so they want it all paid. If the corporation dissolves, then it does not get a discharge, so we are talking about a completely different set of circumstances.

zolace

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Quote from: Rigon on August 08, 2014, 04:50:08 AM

The outcome for higher Ed is the much higher chance to land a job in a higher pay bracket than you (probably) could with just a high school diploma.

Unless it's for some degree that nobody cares about. Maybe those people are considered for Starbucks management roles more often?

BitCoinNutJob

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At this point in time paying tons and getting in debt for a qualification is a bad decision imo. The internet has changed everything - education is free. Importantly, the trend of employers employing people biased on diverse recruitment strategies and non mainstream recognizable qualifications must be hugely on the up no?

If you want to work in public sector then yeah maybe you have to go usual route still

Rigon

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The outcome for higher Ed is the much higher chance to land a job in a higher pay bracket than you (probably) could with just a high school diploma.

noviapriani

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In-state tuition and fees at the University of Oregon are less than $10,000 per year and more than half of the student body receives aid grants, averaging about $7,000 per year. I don't see how that's a problem.

TaunSew

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Quote from: Spendulus on August 05, 2014, 11:43:28 PM

Quote from: TaunSew on August 05, 2014, 10:59:24 PM

Ivy league tuition is going up because of the competition to get in and it is the preferred destination for rich families to send their children (thus they'll sign the dotted line no matter if the tuition is $3K or $100K per semester).

Contrary to belief - even education is affordable in the US. ....

No.

The difference is that pre 1985, a person could work and put themselves through college with minimal debt.

Now, it's massive debt. And that's debt owed to the US Government. And they like that. First, rig the situation where you need college, then rig the prices where you need debt, then print money and supply the debt.

Beats trying to sell Tbills. Certainly a nice income producer along with Tbills. Big difference in income, though.

I just explained to you something called in state tuition (which is heavily subsidized and even near-free in certain US states). $200 textbooks aren't landing people into debt, either. It's the interest payments from the student loans people take to cover the COL.

Pre-1985 the reason people back then didn't take loans was because summer jobs (after adjusting for inflation) paid way more than today. We saw the deindustrialization of the United States in the 1990s which removed a lot of those good paying summer jobs

Spendulus

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Quote from: TaunSew on August 05, 2014, 10:59:24 PM

Ivy league tuition is going up because of the competition to get in and it is the preferred destination for rich families to send their children (thus they'll sign the dotted line no matter if the tuition is $3K or $100K per semester).

Contrary to belief - even education is affordable in the US. ....

No.

The difference is that pre 1985, a person could work and put themselves through college with minimal debt.

Now, it's massive debt. And that's debt owed to the US Government. And they like that. First, rig the situation where you need college, then rig the prices where you need debt, then print money and supply the debt.

Beats trying to sell Tbills. Certainly a nice income producer along with Tbills. Big difference in income, though.

TaunSew

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Activity: 756

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Ivy league tuition is going up because of the competition to get in and it is the preferred destination for rich families to send their children (thus they'll sign the dotted line no matter if the tuition is $3K or $100K per semester).

Contrary to belief - even education is affordable in the US. If you are a state resident then most states in the US have subsidized universities for people born in the state and the tuition costs rival countries like Britain / Canada or are even cheaper.

As well there's always the option to do your first two years at a community college near home to cut down on living expenses.

Spendulus

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: noviapriani on July 29, 2014, 11:27:12 AM

The real question is why tuition and costs go up so much.

Government subsidies in the form of student aid programs.

From 2009: The Department of Education spends about $30 billion a year on subsidies for higher education.

I haven't checked but I highly doubt that number has decreased in the last few years. In fact, I would bet the opposite.

There are parallels between increases in medical care costs and college costs. Both are due to governmental meddling in the free market, creating a managed market with social goals.

It'd be interesting to know the extent of increased costs due to government requirements on universities for various programs and issues... but that wouldn't be the whole story. There's also the palatial gyms, gourmet food and other niceties which seem to be taken for the norm in the university environment.

sana8410

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Quote from: zolace on August 05, 2014, 12:19:55 PM

Quote from: sana8410 on August 05, 2014, 12:17:29 PM

My state contributes less than 7% to the budget of the University of Oregon. 30 years ago it was 30%.

That's a number, but is that a cause? Did the proportion the state contributes to the University's budget decrease because of cuts in contributions or because the budget drastically increased while the contribution, adjusted for inflation, held relatively constant?

It's because the state has been continually cutting funding to the institution .My state has more people and less funding per capital for education of all forms.

noviapriani

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I am not sure what you mean by "discharge of priority debts is not a required precondition to corporate bankruptcy." I think you are confusing two opposites. A discharged debt is debt that goes away forever, without full payment. By contrast, a priority debt MUST be paid for a corporation to get a discharge. This is unlike an individual bankruptcy, where individuals can get a discharge without paying some priority debts.

Priority of employee wages and benefits is not determined by active petitioning--it's right there in the law. A corporation simply cannot get a discharge without paying them.

As for dissolution and reincorporation, sure, that's an option, but it does not give the company a discharge. Nor is it easy or automatic--in most states it takes years. Moreover, the new corporation cannot have the same assets or business as the old corporation without assuming its liabilities.

zolace

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Quote from: sana8410 on August 05, 2014, 12:17:29 PM

My state contributes less than 7% to the budget of the University of Oregon. 30 years ago it was 30%.

That's a number, but is that a cause? Did the proportion the state contributes to the University's budget decrease because of cuts in contributions or because the budget drastically increased while the contribution, adjusted for inflation, held relatively constant?

sana8410

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My state contributes less than 7% to the budget of the University of Oregon. 30 years ago it was 30%.

Topic: what do you think about the way college tuitions keep increasing out of control - page 2. (Read 2712 times)