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Topic: What happens if BU fails VS What happens if SegWit fails - page 4. (Read 6409 times)

legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4788
so you're saying the basic idea of emergent consensus that the core devs are pretending to be so freaked out about and claiming is so 'radically different'  has actually been done already...

emergent consensus  (BU specific proposal of dynamics) has not been around since day one because BU hasnt been around since day one. then again core hasnt been around since 2009 either. (it was satoshi-qt prior to 2013)

but the whole thing about "excessive blocks"(BU specific proposal) is about making policy.h more important as the lower threshold and the "FLAGGER", while making it more automatically moveable.. rather than manually movable.

in the past 2013 sipa and core devs had to manually move the policy.h and so did pools.. though nodes were not really using policy.h as the node validation of block rule. pools were reliant on it.

infact early clients had 3 layers
protocol =32mb
consensus=1mb
policy <500kb
in the early days
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
If segwit reaches locked-in, you still don’t need to upgrade, but upgrading is strongly recommended. The segwit soft fork does not require you to produce segwit-style blocks, so you may continue producing non-segwit blocks indefinitely. However, once segwit activates, it will be possible for other miners to produce blocks that you consider to be valid but which every segwit-enforcing node rejects; if you build any of your blocks upon those invalid blocks, your blocks will be considered invalid too.

This is the general behaviour of a soft fork: if a majority of miners adopts a soft fork, as a minority miner, you have no choice but to follow, or become insignificant.

Remember the definition of a soft fork: a soft fork is a protocol change, such that all what happens under the new protocol seems still valid under the old protocol, but on the other hand, what used to be valid under the old protocol isn't necessarily valid under the new one.

For instance, a typical soft fork it to black list addresses or to turn back former transactions (what is supposed not to be done, but it can, with a soft fork).  The old protocol allows these addresses to transact ; the new protocol doesn't.  Any new block that contains these forbidden transactions, will be considered valid by the old protocol, but invalid by the new one.  As such, if you are an old-protocol miner, and you make such blocks, it will be orphaned by all new protocol miners.  If they have the majority hash power, it will ALWAYS end up being orphaned.  On the other hand, old protocol miners will build upon new protocol blocks without problems.  They will not orphan new protocol blocks.  This makes that old protocol miners will always end up losing in majority acceptance of a soft fork.  A soft fork accepted by a majority IMPOSES ITSELF upon the rest.

This is totally different with a hard fork.  With a hard fork, new protocol blocks are considered not valid by the old protocol.  As such, if a fraction of the miners applies it, it will make a new chain, on which old protocol miners will never build.   The old protocol miners will continue building the old protocol block chain and will not suffer from the forked chain that the new protocol chain miners are now building.   Even 10%-90% or 90%-10% splits, nobody is FORCED to follow another protocol than what he wishes.  The chain that is being mined is always mined with full consensus, but the price to pay is that there are now two chains (which is normal, there are two non-agreeing consensus groups).  With a hard fork, nothing is imposed upon nobody.  With a soft fork, the majority imposes its will on the minority.
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500

The look on your Face.   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
When you realized Bitcoin Unlimited was Paying out more to their Miners that Segwit Pools.



 Cool

FYI: Also when I tricked you into Bumping this Topic for 30 Minutes.   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.18096423
Now I know BU is fo' reels YO! Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
Neither has been tested on the main net.

Segwit is much more complicated which is why it required so much testing even on test net.
BU is by comparison a much simpler change.


dynamics has been tested actually..
though 1mb was the hard limit (in consensus.h).. much like some dynamics propose to move this to 16mb(in consensus.h)

pools have been dynamically moving their preferential block sizes since 2009.. (in policy.h) 2013 was below 500kb in 2015 it was below 750kb

so much like the many dynamic block proposals that want to elevate (in consensus.h) to 4mb, 8mb, 16mb, 32mb whatever.. there is and always has been a second limit that is dynamically moved below this(in policy.h)...

some proposals want the policy.h to have a bigger usefulness for the nodes. where the nodes flag to allow or not allow pools to go beyond X policy.h maxblocksize

just imagine the headache if we stayed at 500kb blocks when Sipa done the leveldb bug event..
as thats the reality of the debate today. the same as the "do we go above 500kb in 2013"

so you're saying the basic idea of emergent consensus that the core devs are pretending to be so freaked out about and claiming is so 'radically different'  has actually been done already...

legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4788
Neither has been tested on the main net.

Segwit is much more complicated which is why it required so much testing even on test net.
BU is by comparison a much simpler change.


dynamics has been tested actually..
though 1mb was the limit (in consensus.h).. much like some dynamics propose to move this to 16mb(in consensus.h)

pools have been dynamically moving their preferential block sizes since 2009.. (in policy.h) 2013 was below 500kb in 2015 it was below 750kb

so much like the many dynamic block proposals that want to elevate (in consensus.h) to 4mb, 8mb, 16mb, 32mb whatever.. there is and always has been a second limit that is dynamically moved below this(in policy.h)...

some proposals want the policy.h to have a bigger usefulness for the nodes. where the nodes flag to allow or not allow pools to go beyond X policy.h maxblocksize

good example of a previous event:
just imagine the headache if we stayed at 500kb blocks when Sipa done the leveldb bug event..
as thats the reality of the debate today. the same as the "do we go above 500kb in policy.h in 2013 eventhough consensus.h was 1mb"

p.s
my node and many other nodes have a consensus.h of 8mb right now and my node in particular has a policy.h limit of 1mb (and a few tweaks to validation) .. and im not having any problems
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 501

Hehe - yes and:  Just in case SW would be the better long term solution , nobody is really able to grasp it fully AND is able to convince crowds of the potential or things are fractioned / censored endless by different forum policies. We only see stupid fan boy chilling here - that's it. Sorry - just in case...

Aside from the fact Segwit lets LN steal tranaction fees from the miners and will bankrupt them.   Tongue
Which is why the miners will never vote segwit in.


 Cool





So what secures the LN network then?
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000

Hehe - yes and:  Just in case SW would be the better long term solution , nobody is really able to grasp it fully AND is able to convince crowds of the potential or things are fractioned / censored endless by different forum policies. We only see stupid fan boy chilling here - that's it. Sorry - just in case...

Aside from the fact Segwit lets LN steal tranaction fees from the miners and will bankrupt them.   Tongue
Which is why the miners will never vote segwit in.
What kind of mallet do I need to use to get that part to register with you.




 Cool
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
I wouldn't be surprised if some of franky1's concerns are true, but cannot confirm this as it is way beyond my technical knowledge and expertise in this area.

FYI, franky has been having his "concerns" for 3 years and counting.


Do you know what happened to the issues that Franky used to complain about? He no longer complains. Because they were demonstrated to be unproductive trolling. When he finds they don't work, he simply switches to newer trolling strategies instead.

If you'd believed anything Franky had stated or predicted, Bitcoin would be hugely unsuccessful cryptocurrency with all the users abandoning it in fear and frustration. But it keeps becoming more popular, and more successful.

I was hear 3 years ago (may have been posting as FunkyRes) and I recall Franky's posts, hard to forget his awesome avatar. They don't seem that different now to me. Well there is a difference, I no longer am gunho about SegWit.

I wanted SegWit because I like the idea of micro-payments but I have since come to realize that micro-payments isn't what segwit is about and can be achieved by simply increasing the block size, which is the KISS solution to the problem. SegWit has a different agenda altogether and I do not believe it is in our best interests. It adds incredible complexity to bitcoin while taking control for the transactions outside the blockchain (via lightening) and I can not condone that.

I hope you are not supporting BU while claiming segwit adds "incredible complexity".

The only thing complex here is the ridiculous "emerging consensus" BU approach. Actually it's not that complex, it's pretty simple: BU doesn't work.

Segwit does, it has been tested to hell and back. Let's get segwit already you pricks.

Neither has been tested on the main net.

Segwit is much more complicated which is why it required so much testing even on test net.
BU is by comparison a much simpler change.



Hehe - yes and:  Just in case SW would be the better long term solution , nobody is really able to grasp it fully AND is able to convince crowds of the potential or things are fractioned / censored endless by different forum policies. We only see stupid fan boy chilling here - that's it. Sorry - just in case...

legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
And is an offchain solution really bitcoin, or a bitcoin facilitator?

Offchain can only ever be a representation of the value of bitcoin.
Just like US Dollars used to be exchangeable for their face value amount in Gold.

Both are only representations and not the actual item of value.

 Cool

FYI:
Added details to Franky1 statement : LN does not need segwit.   Tongue

LN Does Needs Segwit so that LN can be trust less.
Otherwise LN requires a separate Trust system in place or very long extensive Time Locks , Both of which LN Devs don't want.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5eqm2b/can_ln_work_without_segwit/?st=izzovrzk&sh=b2fe8b0a
Quote
Yeah you can do LN without segwit. It's less efficient, and there are some features you won't be able to do.

With segwit, you can have a 3rd party "watch" your channel for you in case your counterparty tries to broadcast an old, fraudulent transaction.
The 3rd party can automatically grab your money back for you. And the watcher doesn't even know about your transactions or your balances while watching.

That whole feature is pretty much gone without segwit.
You'd have to tell the watcher everything about your channel, and the only thing they'd be able to do is e-mail you to let you know if fraud occurred.


The other main disadvantage to segwit-less LN is that channels would have a preset duration. That's a pretty big downside.

If segwit doesn't activate after a long time, we could re-program some of the current code to work without segwit.
I think everyone's hoping we don't have to as that'd be a bit disappointing, but doable.
As I meme'd at scaling HK, there are levels of LN we are prepared to accept


In Short , without Segwit any version of LN is going to be crap.
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4788
@franky1 - can this quadratic spam you talk about be resolved on native keys anyway?

yep
reduce TX sigops limit. in effect much like not allowing 0 fee tx's into blocks. not allowing tx with XXXXX sigops into blocks

but thats a separate thing to what segwit does.. moving the signature= only segwit tx's are affected and doesnt do anything for native tx's

best analogy for sgwits proposal
"we fear people will want to shoot other people in the leg.. who volunteers to be amputated so they cannot be shot in the leg or run around to shoot others"

reducing sigops.. "is like a metal detector scanner at the door. if you have a big lump of metal on you.. you cant come in no matter if you amputated or full bodied"
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 501
@franky1 - can this quadratic spam you talk about be resolved on native keys anyway?
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
I wouldn't be surprised if some of franky1's concerns are true, but cannot confirm this as it is way beyond my technical knowledge and expertise in this area.

FYI, franky has been having his "concerns" for 3 years and counting.


Do you know what happened to the issues that Franky used to complain about? He no longer complains. Because they were demonstrated to be unproductive trolling. When he finds they don't work, he simply switches to newer trolling strategies instead.

If you'd believed anything Franky had stated or predicted, Bitcoin would be hugely unsuccessful cryptocurrency with all the users abandoning it in fear and frustration. But it keeps becoming more popular, and more successful.

I was hear 3 years ago (may have been posting as FunkyRes) and I recall Franky's posts, hard to forget his awesome avatar. They don't seem that different now to me. Well there is a difference, I no longer am gunho about SegWit.

I wanted SegWit because I like the idea of micro-payments but I have since come to realize that micro-payments isn't what segwit is about and can be achieved by simply increasing the block size, which is the KISS solution to the problem. SegWit has a different agenda altogether and I do not believe it is in our best interests. It adds incredible complexity to bitcoin while taking control for the transactions outside the blockchain (via lightening) and I can not condone that.

I hope you are not supporting BU while claiming segwit adds "incredible complexity".

The only thing complex here is the ridiculous "emerging consensus" BU approach. Actually it's not that complex, it's pretty simple: BU doesn't work.

Segwit does, it has been tested to hell and back. Let's get segwit already you pricks.

Neither has been tested on the main net.

Segwit is much more complicated which is why it required so much testing even on test net.
BU is by comparison a much simpler change.

legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4788
I'd like to see more reasoned arguments for segwit, rather than just fanboyism or insult hurling.
I see more reasoned arguments against segwit, and about the need for a blocksize increase IMO.

So how will users be able to move small UTXO's from native keys to segwit keys without a blocksize increase?

And is an offchain solution really bitcoin, or a bitcoin facilitator?

no one is against offchain solution as a VOLUNTARY side service
LN does not need segwit.
LN can be just a side commercial service much like bitgo or coinbase.com.

but centralising the network where it forces everyone into using LN. BIG no no

LN has a niche that some can happily use. but LN has limitations too. not everyone will benefit from it even if forced to use it.
LN is not the end solution. so treat is only as a future side service
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 501
I'd like to see more reasoned arguments for segwit, rather than just fanboyism or insult hurling.
I see more reasoned arguments against segwit, and about the need for a blocksize increase IMO.

So how will users be able to move small UTXO's from native keys to segwit keys without a blocksize increase?

And is an offchain solution really bitcoin, or a bitcoin facilitator?
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4788
Segwit does, it has been tested to hell and back. Let's get segwit already you pricks.

on testnet.
thats like saying litecoin works because it has been tested since 2011.. but throw it into bitcoins mainnet overnight and see what happens when you try telling the world you can get to do litecoin stuff..

show me a segwit transaction on bitcoins mainnet.. oh you cant
show me a segwit block on bitcoins mainnet. oh you cant.

show me if segwit is so "backward compatible" how come no tests are done on bitcoins mainnet to show how "compatible" and "safe" it is.oh you cant.
show me segwit is letting nodes vote... oh you cant.
show me how segwit if activated stops native transactions.. oh you cant
although segwit removes automated relay of unconfirmed segwit tx's to native nodes, show me how segwit prevents MANUAL copy/paste of unconfirmed segwit tx to old nodes.. oh you cant

stop reading the 30 second elevator sales pitch of segwit and learn the real features learn the capability and their limitations and their effectiveness, learn the weaknesses, learn the loopholes and learn what it doesnt solve.

then your utopian bubble pops loud enough to wake you up

save repeating myself
LOL read the code. learn it
native keys will still quadratic spam..
all segwit does is disarm the segwit priv/pubkey users that voluntarily move their funds to segwit keys from being able to quadratic/malleate.. but doesnt disarm the native key users.
segwit doesnt disarm the network. meaning soft or hard consensus or bilateral. segwit will never be able to achieve the quadratic/malleation fix promise

they cant even just switch off native key utility after activation either because there are millions of unspent outputs based on native keys and for segwit to even work would need to allow those native unspents to be spent.

segwits 'malicious bloat/doublespend fix' - empty gesture that wont work (requires 100% funds on segwit keys and only transacting to other segwit keys)
segwits '2.1mb boost' - empty gesture that get to that expectation (requires 100% funds on segwit keys and only transacting to other segwit keys)

all segwits ability does is move blockstream to being the centralised "upstream filters"
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1028
I wouldn't be surprised if some of franky1's concerns are true, but cannot confirm this as it is way beyond my technical knowledge and expertise in this area.

FYI, franky has been having his "concerns" for 3 years and counting.


Do you know what happened to the issues that Franky used to complain about? He no longer complains. Because they were demonstrated to be unproductive trolling. When he finds they don't work, he simply switches to newer trolling strategies instead.

If you'd believed anything Franky had stated or predicted, Bitcoin would be hugely unsuccessful cryptocurrency with all the users abandoning it in fear and frustration. But it keeps becoming more popular, and more successful.

I was hear 3 years ago (may have been posting as FunkyRes) and I recall Franky's posts, hard to forget his awesome avatar. They don't seem that different now to me. Well there is a difference, I no longer am gunho about SegWit.

I wanted SegWit because I like the idea of micro-payments but I have since come to realize that micro-payments isn't what segwit is about and can be achieved by simply increasing the block size, which is the KISS solution to the problem. SegWit has a different agenda altogether and I do not believe it is in our best interests. It adds incredible complexity to bitcoin while taking control for the transactions outside the blockchain (via lightening) and I can not condone that.

I hope you are not supporting BU while claiming segwit adds "incredible complexity".

The only thing complex here is the ridiculous "emerging consensus" BU approach. Actually it's not that complex, it's pretty simple: BU doesn't work.

Segwit does, it has been tested to hell and back. Let's get segwit already you pricks.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 107
I wouldn't be surprised if some of franky1's concerns are true, but cannot confirm this as it is way beyond my technical knowledge and expertise in this area.

FYI, franky has been having his "concerns" for 3 years and counting.


Do you know what happened to the issues that Franky used to complain about? He no longer complains. Because they were demonstrated to be unproductive trolling. When he finds they don't work, he simply switches to newer trolling strategies instead.

If you'd believed anything Franky had stated or predicted, Bitcoin would be hugely unsuccessful cryptocurrency with all the users abandoning it in fear and frustration. But it keeps becoming more popular, and more successful.

I was hear 3 years ago (may have been posting as FunkyRes) and I recall Franky's posts, hard to forget his awesome avatar. They don't seem that different now to me. Well there is a difference, I no longer am gunho about SegWit.

I wanted SegWit because I like the idea of micro-payments but I have since come to realize that micro-payments isn't what segwit is about and can be achieved by simply increasing the block size, which is the KISS solution to the problem. SegWit has a different agenda altogether and I do not believe it is in our best interests. It adds incredible complexity to bitcoin while taking control for the transactions outside the blockchain (via lightening) and I can not condone that.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
They can have their blocks rejected despite any of that.

Yeah , keep thinking that!

Just go home to your mommy, so she can soothe your fragile broken psyche.   Cheesy

 Cool
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