What's the point of signing messages?

stiffbud

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 05, 2020, 02:04:47 PM

What is the point of proving you own an address? Has it ever happened to you, to need it? I mean, yeah, if Satoshi Nakamoto signs a message from the address of genesis block, it is a big thing. But, except from this smart thread that you can prove you own your account, I find it useless. Clever invention, but useless.

Question #2:
I wonder, Satoshi was the first one who implemented blockchain. Was he the first one who invented the signing/verifying thing?

Online transactions with bitcoin are always pseudonymous and the number one concern is always trust, but what if you have transacted with a person many a time and he is asking for the funds in a newer wallet, then you can actually trust him when he sends you funds in a newer wallet by asking him to send the signed message from the older wallet that he used to own. right!!! This is just a single use case, there can be many more. So signing messages feature isn't worthless after all.

BuNga_cute

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In my opinion, signing messages are the best way to prove the identity of the owner of a Bitcoin address. So we can prove that Bitcoin is
on the wallets is ours, it will be easy when we lose control of the Bitcoin address that we have. Many benefits if we succeed in proving
Bitcoin address ownership, among others, we can become funding projects, escrow transactions, and capital loans.

hd49728

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Quote from: rhomelmabini on July 06, 2020, 07:05:47 AM

Does your account have been compromised in the past or you think you need it in the future for a verification? Are you trading with other users here especially lending some BTCs? Those are just least of the important ones you can count in this forum. Yeah, you may think it's useless but do you know of other active communities like this forum? That thread I find it helpful because one day if I'm away from this forum and then users start to wonder I just recently woke thinking I've been hacked or something similar like that then I just use that thread for a verification. I don't know how you define useless but I think that's unnecessary calling it like that.

About account compromise, it is safer to have two seperated security methods: One for the account (with very strong password and secure the password), two for the bitcoin wallet is used to sign a message to prove ownership of the account.

To 'illegally' do a trade with you: there are two things hackers have to do and get access on: hack your forum account, and steal your wallet. If you store your account details (username, password) in one place, and store your wallet backup in another place, it is nearly impossible for hackers to hack both of them and can start a scam trade.

rhomelmabini

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Does your account have been compromised in the past or you think you need it in the future for a verification? Are you trading with other users here especially lending some BTCs? Those are just least of the important ones you can count in this forum. Yeah, you may think it's useless but do you know of other active communities like this forum? That thread I find it helpful because one day if I'm away from this forum and then users start to wonder I just recently woke thinking I've been hacked or something similar like that then I just use that thread for a verification. I don't know how you define useless but I think that's unnecessary calling it like that.

hd49728

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Not your keys, not your coins!

Signature or signing a message is used when you want to prove something valuable and important, for your business or personal purposes.

Maybe some people argue that signing a message will break people's privacy but it is not true, IMO. You can create an empty wallet, just to get a private key, a public address and use them to sign a message for your job. Nothing more will be used from that wallet so it will not break your privacy.

For trading activities or fund movements, you can use other wallets. Is it clear?

boyptc

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Quote from: joniboini on July 06, 2020, 02:34:40 AM

Maybe you should read further. I honestly believe the answers to your questions (not only in this thread) are obvious enough as long as you spend time reading threads or articles.

Yeah.

Most of threads he creates can be answered through google. But that's fine I guess if he's actually learning from it.

YuginKadoya

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Verification of oneself helps ensure data integrity and message authentication it is pretty common now, here in the forum in signing message although I can not find my first signing message maybe I would surely go beyond my older post, it will surely help in verifying anyone identity because everyone here is pretty much anonymous it really helps to confirm if you really own that address, pretty much I am getting redundant on my point.

cabron

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When you get the feeling you are about to conduct a transaction but you wanna be sure if the telegram account you are talking to isn't an impostor then you might wanna asked that someone who had posted their address somewhere to make a sign message whether its really him. Impostor scam is common in the forum by the way.

joniboini

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Maybe you should read further. I honestly believe the answers to your questions (not only in this thread) are obvious enough as long as you spend time reading threads or articles.

pooya87

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 05, 2020, 02:04:47 PM

I wonder, Satoshi was the first one who implemented blockchain. Was he the first one who invented the signing/verifying thing?

no! it (elliptic curve cryptography) was invented in 1985 by Victor Miller and Neal Koblitz. the signature algorithm (ECDSA) was introduced in 1992 by Scott Vanstone. and ECC became more popular and widely used in 2004 to 2005 and Satoshi started working on bitcoin around 2006 i believe (3 years before release) and it was "bitcoin" in 2009.

khaled0111

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Besides using it to prove the ownership of the address, digital signatures are mainly used to ensure the authenticity of files or messages.
By checking the validity of a signature, you guarantee that you received/downloaded the original file since digital signatures can't be tampered.

TheArchaeologist

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 05, 2020, 02:04:47 PM

What is the point of proving you own an address? Has it ever happened to you, to need it? I mean, yeah, if Satoshi Nakamoto signs a message from the address of genesis block, it is a big thing. But, except from this smart thread that you can prove you own your account, I find it useless. Clever invention, but useless.

Question #2:
I wonder, Satoshi was the first one who implemented blockchain. Was he the first one who invented the signing/verifying thing?

Signing messages is a very important part of asymmetric encryption, especially digital signatures. Digital signatures were invented long before Bitcoin came to life. Here are some of the milestones in the history of digital signature technology:

1976: Whitfield Diffie and Martin Hellman first described the idea of a digital signature scheme, but they only theorized that such schemes existed
1977: Ronald Rivest, Adi Shamir and Len Adleman invented the RSA algorithm, which could be used to produce a kind of primitive digital signature
1988: Lotus Notes 1.0, which used the RSA algorithm, became the first widely marketed software package to offer digital signatures
1999: The ability to embed digital signatures into documents is added to PDF format
2000: The ESIGN Act makes digital signatures legally binding
2002: SIGNiX is founded and becomes the most broadly used cloud-based digital signature software
2008: The PDF file format becomes an open standard to the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) as ISO 32000. Includes digital signatures as integral part of format.

Without the signing ability to Bitcoin would not be able to do a single transaction so I think calling it useless is far from the truth. In the specific case of signing a text message it is a proven way to come forward as a person in possession of the private key needed for singing without disclosing the key itself. So I would call it pretty clever instead of useless.

pixie85

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 05, 2020, 03:16:13 PM

Quote

A real scenario where this was used is a case of Craig Wright who wasn't able to sign a message with any of the old Satoshi's addresses.

True, I had read that Craig Wright is lying about being satoshi, but I hadn't time to analyze it. I didn't know that he can't sign a message from his "possible" addresses. Is he a scam? Better question, is there a huge topic about Craig Wright?

Yes, Craig Wright is not Satoshi. He lied about having access to coins from the genesis block, he lied about writing the white paper, he lied about private keys being in storage and about some trusted person being scheduled to deliver them to him. He's a pathological liar.

There are many topics about him.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/did-craig-wright-turn-out-to-be-satoshi-nakamoto-1871733
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/roger-ver-maybe-ive-been-fooled-by-craig-wright-5065767

And here's a great article with more or less everything about CSW.
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/op-ed-how-many-wrongs-make-wright

LoyceMobile

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 05, 2020, 02:04:47 PM

What is the point of proving you own an address?

Say I wake up in Bratislava and need money to get home. I'll sign a message, and request a loan. See the exception link in my signature for details.

serjent05

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Signing message is intended to prove anything that has something to do with Bitcoin, may it be funds or message. I never find it useless when we are able to secure if the message really came from a person or not. In a world of anonymity, it is very important to have some sort of security protocol that will safeguard both parties in terms of trading or any other deals.

bL4nkcode

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What you're asking is completely answered and explained on the thread's OP.

If you care your account better do that if not still okay.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 05, 2020, 03:16:13 PM

Is he a scam? Better question, is there a huge topic about Craig Wright?

Read it here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/scam-bitcoin-sv-bsv-fake-team-member-and-plagiarized-white-paper-5149062

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote

A real scenario where this was used is a case of Craig Wright who wasn't able to sign a message with any of the old Satoshi's addresses.

True, I had read that Craig Wright is lying about being satoshi, but I hadn't time to analyze it. I didn't know that he can't sign a message from his "possible" addresses. Is he a scam? Better question, is there a huge topic about Craig Wright?

Ryker1

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Well, there are certain usages of the signed message in a bitcoin wallet used, --this is a way to prove that you are the one holding a bitcoin where you have been stored the bitcoin. This is to prove that you own your private key and bitcoin wallet address used, and anyone can verify if you are telling the truth of claiming ownership and correct source of where bitcoin held.

That is a different thing of signing a message in the forum, it means ownership of forum account which is quoted with other users to make it sure that it is uneditable if your account got hacks with someone else. You have a chance to recover from it. Indeed, signing bitcoin message is a great help.

pixie85

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Some cases in which signing can be useful.

A real scenario where this was used is a case of Craig Wright who wasn't able to sign a message with any of the old Satoshi's addresses.

Verifying that you have control of the address and funds on it is very useful when you're an escrow for 2 parties. This way you can remotely show the seller that the buyer has paid you.

It can be used to prove ownership of a forum account or any other online account that had this address in a signature or posted it online.

May be used to prove that the person you have dealt with in the past is still the same person. Emails can be hacked with ease but addresses not so much Wink

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 05, 2020, 02:04:47 PM

Question #2:
I wonder, Satoshi was the first one who implemented blockchain. Was he the first one who invented the signing/verifying thing?

Signing is a vital part of public key cryptography, and it was created together with it, so it precedes Bitcoin and blockchain for many years. Since Bitcoin addresses also use it, it was very easy to implement signing not only transactions, but arbitrary messages.

There can be a lot of uses for it, some airdrops used signed messages to distribute coins to Bitcoin owners, signing a message is an easy way to prove that you own certain address, exchanges and other custodians can prove that they hold the funds. In real world people sometimes have to prove that they own a certain amount of money before they can enter a deal, so if Bitcoin is used, signing is a way to do so.

o_e_l_e_o

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It proves ownership of an address, and since addresses rarely change hands, it also goes a little way to proving identity as well.

You can use it to prove that you are in possession of funds that you say you are, such as if you are offering a trade, escrowing a deal, or funding a campaign. You can use it to prove that you own an address which has been historically linked to an account or person. For example, if I lost control of my account I could sign a message from an address used by this account many years ago, which would help to prove I am the real owner. If we were about to make a trade, but you wanted to confirm you were trading with the real o_e_l_e_o, you could ask me to sign a message from an old address to help prove that the account hasn't changed hands. CSW's constant and repeated failure to sign a message from an early bitcoin address helps to prove he is categorically not Satoshi.

RapTarX

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Signing message proves that you are talking to the correct person, the message can't be altered or changed. You can check whether sender has sent you the exact message etc. I guess it has more usage as well.

coupable

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 05, 2020, 02:04:47 PM

But, except from this smart thread that you can prove you own your account, I find it useless. Clever invention, but useless.

So you think it's a useless clever invention!? That smart thread you have mentioned can't be created without that clever invention.
If you own an address, this means that its private keys is under your controle. The signing message option is to prove the ownership of a specific address without the need to show the private keys. To avoid phishing attempts of pretending to be the owner of an address, only the real owner can sign a message using the PK. For better understanding, take a look at the campaign managers who sign message from the address containing the funds resereved for the campaign. A lot of other use cases of this option.
This is not only with bitcoin, other blockchains have this option too.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on July 05, 2020, 02:04:47 PM

Question #2:
I wonder, Satoshi was the first one who implemented blockchain. Was he the first one who invented the signing/verifying thing?

I can't tell if he is the first one who invented this option but i can ensure you that it's determined in the Bitcoin protocole. There are already other forms of signing mesages in the "data encryption" science.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

What is the point of proving you own an address? Has it ever happened to you, to need it? I mean, yeah, if Satoshi Nakamoto signs a message from the address of genesis block, it is a big thing. But, except from this smart thread that you can prove you own your account, I find it useless. Clever invention, but useless.

Question #2:
I wonder, Satoshi was the first one who implemented blockchain. Was he the first one who invented the signing/verifying thing?

Topic: What's the point of signing messages? (Read 210 times)