What's your shutdown point? - page 2.

wndrbr3d

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on November 02, 2011, 01:18:11 PM

The higher the difficulty the more hashing power it would require to gain 51% control of the network. The purpose of the network isn't to provide you coins. The purpose of the network is to keep the currency secure without the need of a third party.

The "block reward" is a subsidy because transaction volume and taxes are currently insufficient for the network to pay for itself.

Higher difficulty = stronger network = stronger Bitcoin.

Although mathematically possible, I disagree that this is a threat.

For a single entity not currently in the network to take over 50% of the hashing power, they'd need to bring ~8.5Thash/sec to the game. I don't think, even using a botnet that one could achieve those numbers.

For a pool to hit this, obviously it'd have to be premeditated in that they wait for the users to push them over 50%. But Miners have the power to make sure hashing power is distributed among the pools.

Honestly, your equation should be:

higher distribution of computing power = stronger network = stronger bitcoin.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

The higher the difficulty the more hashing power it would require to gain 51% control of the network. The purpose of the network isn't to provide you coins. The purpose of the network is to keep the currency secure without the need of a third party.

The "block reward" is a subsidy because transaction volume and taxes are currently insufficient for the network to pay for itself.

Higher difficulty = stronger network = stronger Bitcoin.

wndrbr3d

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on November 02, 2011, 11:34:27 AM

Higher difficulty is better for the network. That is an absolute truth.

Explain.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: wndrbr3d on November 02, 2011, 11:14:40 AM

Mining "for fun"/at a loss does not help the network. Blocks get generated at a steady, consistent rate no matter how many people are mining thanks to difficulty adjustments. If anything, people mining "for fun" or at a loss are hurting the network by keeping difficulty higher than it needs to be.

Due to the recent difficulty drops combined with the price settling at ~$3.20, I re-enabled my mining rigs since I'm back to an acceptable profit margin after energy costs.

Higher difficulty is better for the network. That is an absolute truth.

wndrbr3d

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Mining "for fun"/at a loss does not help the network. Blocks get generated at a steady, consistent rate no matter how many people are mining thanks to difficulty adjustments. If anything, people mining "for fun" or at a loss are hurting the network by keeping difficulty higher than it needs to be.

Due to the recent difficulty drops combined with the price settling at ~$3.20, I re-enabled my mining rigs since I'm back to an acceptable profit margin after energy costs.

Departure

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My cutoff point is when I got the electricity bill in, noticed I would never even make half of the extra amount due to mining with bitcoins. Sold 2 out of 3 of my 6990's and keeping 1 for gaming, and mining just for fun and to help in small way for community. 1 6990 gives me 400mh, it still costs me in electricity but not as much as when I was running 3, Every thing is good in moderation including bitcoin mining, My moderation was to mine on 1 card only and still feel okay about helping the bitcoin grow.

tonto

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my shutdown point is only when bit coin someday dies. I have it going while I'm not gaming, like I did with folding@home and, before that, SETI@home.

This at least gives me some return on investment. Wink

I'm only running for the cool concept of bit coins, and to maybe buy an upgrade to my gaming rig.

If folding@home ever started paying similar payouts, I'd probably go back to it, since it's also helping to advance medicine.

Fiyasko

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Okey Dokey Lokey

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 24, 2011, 11:05:00 AM

Quote from: AngelusWebDesign on October 24, 2011, 11:01:22 AM

Quote from: jjiimm_64 on October 20, 2011, 07:43:51 PM

Quote from: error on October 20, 2011, 01:03:53 PM

I will shut down when an uncorrectable flaw is found in one of Bitcoin's algorithms, making it unusable.

This is a great answer.

btw, I just received my third elec bill. It was lower by 500 dollars because I used more electricity... Don't you just love capitalism, I got cheaper electricity by killing more trees

So, as long as I keep all the miners humming, my shutdown just went down to the mid 1 dollar range.

I call BS.

I find it equally dubious. Generally electricity is priced in tiers not retroactively.

So for large customers (generally not residential) it may be something like (hypothetical numbers):

0 to 1000 kWh $0.10 per kWh
1001 to 3000 kWh $0.095 per kWh
3001 to 5000 kWh $0.092 per kWh

I mean if the claim is true why wouldn't companies simply waste power to lower their cost. Rig up a huge number of resistors and simply turn electricity into waste heat. Free money right. Imagine massive electrical consumers (like say aluminum smelter). If their bill was x and they could make it
So power company consumers more resources, gets closer to peak limit of the high capacity lines and gets less revenue in the process?

No kidding, This guy is just lying, Fucking sick of trolls

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: AngelusWebDesign on October 24, 2011, 11:01:22 AM

Quote from: jjiimm_64 on October 20, 2011, 07:43:51 PM

Quote from: error on October 20, 2011, 01:03:53 PM

I will shut down when an uncorrectable flaw is found in one of Bitcoin's algorithms, making it unusable.

This is a great answer.

btw, I just received my third elec bill. It was lower by 500 dollars because I used more electricity... Don't you just love capitalism, I got cheaper electricity by killing more trees

So, as long as I keep all the miners humming, my shutdown just went down to the mid 1 dollar range.

I call BS.

I find it equally dubious. Generally electricity is priced in tiers not retroactively.

So for large customers (generally not residential) it may be something like (hypothetical numbers):

0 to 1000 kWh $0.10 per kWh
1001 to 3000 kWh $0.095 per kWh
3001 to 5000 kWh $0.092 per kWh

I mean if the claim is true why wouldn't companies simply waste power to lower their cost. Rig up a huge number of resistors and simply turn electricity into waste heat. Free money right. Imagine massive electrical consumers (like say aluminum smelter). If their bill was x and they could make it
So power company consumes more resources, gets closer to peak limit of the high capacity lines, and gets less revenue in the process?

On edit:
Giving the author of the claim the benefit of the doubt maybe the power company switched to seasonal pricing and his lowered bill had nothing to do with amount of power consumed. I know 1 OCT my electrical rate went down about 15% as the power company switched to "winter" pricing.

AngelusWebDesign

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Quote from: jjiimm_64 on October 20, 2011, 07:43:51 PM

Quote from: error on October 20, 2011, 01:03:53 PM

I will shut down when an uncorrectable flaw is found in one of Bitcoin's algorithms, making it unusable.

This is a great answer.

btw, I just received my third elec bill. It was lower by 500 dollars because I used more electricity... Don't you just love capitalism, I got cheaper electricity by killing more trees

So, as long as I keep all the miners humming, my shutdown just went down to the mid 1 dollar range.

I call BS.

Fiyasko

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Okey Dokey Lokey

Quote from: jjiimm_64 on October 20, 2011, 07:43:51 PM

Quote from: error on October 20, 2011, 01:03:53 PM

I will shut down when an uncorrectable flaw is found in one of Bitcoin's algorithms, making it unusable.

This is a great answer.

btw, I just received my third elec bill. It was lower by 500 dollars because I used more electricity... Don't you just love capitalism, I got cheaper electricity by killing more trees

So, as long as I keep all the miners humming, my shutdown just went down to the mid 1 dollar range.

It's Stupid things like this that start wars. You fucking got billed Five Hundred dollars less, BECAUSE you used MORE power? So you moved into a different "payment" "bracket"
Thats just fucking stupid.
Just, Fucking Stupid.
I can see where that was created from tho "Use more Powerful tools to build shit and help our government and we'll charge you less"
But seriously, That is a fucking Waste of They're own money, Why the fuck did they LOWER your bill by $500,
Lets play with this, Just for shits

(All math below has no Real stats)
You pay 200/mo for power
You get a mining farm, Wich should bring the cost up Alot
So lets say that it'd cost you an extra 300/mo to run the farm.
So with the farm, And your house, Your spending 500/mo.
Now lets pretend that the "bill bracket" Is at 600,
If buddy turns More Miners on, Bringing his bill upto 750/mo
Then he gets slapped with a -$500 price change
Making him pay 250/mo
$50's/mo for the Entire mining farm.
Even though the farm is Raping electricity out of the grid at What Should be a pricy amount, It's not, Because he swapped "brackets" It became Cheeper by $500 for him to Use more electricity.

Fuck You, Capitalist, Why are you Raping the Planet and lying? What you say is utter bullshit.

Fiyasko

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Okey Dokey Lokey

The day that my cards blow out.
Seriously, Winter=Free heating
Summer=some nice internet moneys

jjiimm_64

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Quote from: error on October 20, 2011, 01:03:53 PM

I will shut down when an uncorrectable flaw is found in one of Bitcoin's algorithms, making it unusable.

This is a great answer.

btw, I just received my third elec bill. It was lower by 500 dollars because I used more electricity... Don't you just love capitalism, I got cheaper electricity by killing more trees

So, as long as I keep all the miners humming, my shutdown just went down to the mid 1 dollar range.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

I will shutdown when I am driving a car that runs on burning money.

paraipan

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Firstbits: 1pirata

Quote from: error on October 20, 2011, 01:03:53 PM

I will shut down when an uncorrectable flaw is found in one of Bitcoin's algorithms, making it unusable.

+1

error

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I will shut down when an uncorrectable flaw is found in one of Bitcoin's algorithms, making it unusable.

TurboK

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When the payment arrives for my videocard. So, next week at latest.

fizzisist

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Quote from: P4man on October 20, 2011, 06:01:53 AM

You can not define a shutdown point as BTC/$ and ignore difficulty.

Difficulty is of course indirectly related to BTC/$ but its effect is that long term profitability is not dependent on BTC/$ but only on your MH/$ compared to the rest of the world. As such that FPGA will likely be profitable for the foreseeable future no matter BTC price, and EU or other GPU miners with high electricity costs will never be profitable for sustained periods of time. At most during short windows of opportunity when the network hash rate and difficulty havent caught up with a higher price yet.

You're right, we should say that it is our shutdown point at the current difficulty. Even better would be to define the ratio of difficulty/price, but you would have to recalculate the ratio all the time.. On the other hand, the USD/BTC price is plastered everywhere so you can keep tabs on it easily. When the diffficulty changes you just have to scale your shutdown point (in USD) by the same amount.

E.g., if the difficulty rises by 10%, my shutdown point in USD/BTC goes up by the same amount. My $0.35 shutdown point would go up to $0.385. You only have to recalculate this every two weeks.

P4man

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Quote from: wndrbr3d on October 20, 2011, 07:36:11 AM

You can totally define a shutdown point of BTC/$ because calculating that REQUIRES you include difficulty. Otherwise you wouldn't know how many BTC you generate per watt.

Hmm? Where exactly do you see watt or difficulty in "my shutdown point is $2 per BTC" ?

In theory bitcoin mining can be profitable at $0.02/BTC and unprofitable at $200/BTC with the very same rig and the very same electricity cost. It all depends on difficulty and therefore, all the other miners.

wndrbr3d

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Quote from: P4man on October 20, 2011, 06:01:53 AM

You can not define a shutdown point as BTC/$ and ignore difficulty.

Difficulty is of course indirectly related to BTC/$ but its effect is that long term profitability is not dependent on BTC/$ but only on your MH/$ compared to the rest of the world. As such that FPGA will likely be profitable for the foreseeable future no matter BTC price, and EU or other GPU miners with high electricity costs will never be profitable for sustained periods of time. At most during short windows of opportunity when the network hash rate and difficulty havent caught up with a higher price yet.

You can totally define a shutdown point of BTC/$ because calculating that REQUIRES you include difficulty. Otherwise you wouldn't know how many BTC you generate per watt.

I still don't buy into the idea of FPGA being the future due to the astronomical startup costs when compared to CPU. I think the current CHEAPEST solution commercially available out there is somewhere in the range of ~$200 for 100Mhash? Even at lower difficulties, it would take FOR EVER just to earn back your initial investment, let alone make profit beyond that (assuming bitcoin doesn't recover back to $10).

Topic: What's your shutdown point? - page 2. (Read 11441 times)