Pages:
Author

Topic: When Wall Street will finally jump in? (Read 5173 times)

full member
Activity: 448
Merit: 100
March 11, 2014, 11:24:01 PM
#90

  • Bitcoiners are generally highly intelligent


This was my opinion until I started posting here regularly



I think the average age of people posting here has dropped drastically in the past few months. Bitcoin is booming and lots of newcomers. I mean many forum members even bought the Dorian Nakamoto story, believing a mainstream journalist. They have also changed the rules so that new members can post immediately in the main sections of the forum. I think this is a bad idea.

And in order to connect to the subject; a "boring" forum that doesn't let newbies post gave Bitcoin a better image. I think Bitcoin is going through a year when much of the unprofessionalism will be weeded out from the Bitcoin community. But it will look ugly until we're done with this process.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
March 11, 2014, 11:23:41 PM
#89
HoneyPot has a hard time discerning between bringing thieves and fraudsters to justice, as opposed to restrictions before the fact that merely trod upon the liberty to act in an unfettered manner, tempered only by the equal rights of others.
full member
Activity: 448
Merit: 100
March 11, 2014, 11:13:25 PM
#88
How come communist country like China massivelly jumped in on the bitcoin wagon already and modern and democratic country like US is still (mostly) taking their sweet time?

Maybe because they are totally into gambling. Any casino in proximity to chinese population is always full.
hero member
Activity: 898
Merit: 1000
March 11, 2014, 10:47:29 PM
#87
I noticed people want their cake and eat it too, although we're preaching to the choir at the moment.

You want wall street money to pour in. But you don't want regulations or oversight. You hate 'DA MAN', but like cunts run crying and bitching to your lawyer/cop/judge/whoever'syourmother or anyone with enough free time to listen when you get fucked over by exact same things you preach.

Regulations and greater 'official' investment, or low-balled and relatively slower growth. Your choice.

Cryptocurrency has a place in this world. The cryptojesus wannabes will be left in the dust bin of history as a good example of joke-of-a-wannbe-spoiled-revolutionaries produced by this generation. Or 'accidentally' get involved in money laundering and drug business, winding up under criminal investigation.



Why do you hate life so much?
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
March 11, 2014, 09:31:30 PM
#86
I noticed people want their cake and eat it too, although we're preaching to the choir at the moment.

You want wall street money to pour in. But you don't want regulations or oversight. You hate 'DA MAN', but like cunts run crying and bitching to your lawyer/cop/judge/whoever'syourmother or anyone with enough free time to listen when you get fucked over by exact same things you preach.

Regulations and greater 'official' investment, or low-balled and relatively slower growth. Your choice.

Cryptocurrency has a place in this world. The cryptojesus wannabes will be left in the dust bin of history as a good example of joke-of-a-wannbe-spoiled-revolutionaries produced by this generation. Or 'accidentally' get involved in money laundering and drug business, winding up under criminal investigation.

sr. member
Activity: 980
Merit: 256
Decentralized Ascending Auctions on Blockchain
March 11, 2014, 09:18:06 PM
#85

  • Bitcoiners are generally highly intelligent


This was my opinion until I started posting here regularly

hero member
Activity: 898
Merit: 1000
March 11, 2014, 07:11:47 PM
#83
I'm pretty sure that the ones who want in are gradually building their positions as we speak, while the price is nice and low. No need to drive it up just yet, just keep loading up until the opportune moment. Then see how the market responds to the shortage of available coins now that loads of them are tied up in cold storage waiting for $10,000+
newbie
Activity: 24
Merit: 0
March 11, 2014, 06:44:35 PM
#82
Is there any online broker for futures/stocks who accepts Bitcoin? I noticed that TorBroker is still alive, but I'm thinking about something more transparent.
newbie
Activity: 31
Merit: 0
March 11, 2014, 06:23:44 PM
#81
I'm what most of you would consider a wall street person: I'm a high frequency trader, have been for the past decade, and make my income solely from trading.

I own ~4 bitcoins that I mined myself a couple years back just because I thought/think the bitcoin project is cool.

I'd like to buy many, many more bitcoins (to buy and hold, not to HFT). Putting a few hundred thousand dollars into an investment like bitcoin would be something I'd be happy to do - the risk adjusted returns are within my risk profile. I haven't. The reason is I don't trust any of the exchanges. Even the 'reputable' ones are still small/unproven startups. Coming from the wall street world, there's a lot to be said for the security that larger battle-tested financial institutions offer. When you're talking about putting hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars at risk, counterparty risk is a very real concern. At this point in time, no exchange has given me enough faith to trust them with my money, even if it was only for a single hour where I wired it to them and then bought the BTC and transferred the BTC out immediately. While I never would have used gox, just as an example: What if the company happens to blow up in that hour, and I never get my BTC and my USD are stuck in some sketchy small company that is in a foreign bankruptcy proceeding for the next three years?

Wall street types are happy to accept financial risk, but aren't very fond of counterparty risk, especially if we can't hedge it off onto someone else. At the moment that's not particularly possible. If you got even a single reputable financial institution (bank, equity/commodity exchange, something of that nature) to operate a BTC exchange, we'd come flocking.

All of the "fear of the unknown" type comments aren't particularly accurate about why wall street isn't investing bigtime in BTC yet. Wall Street will invest in pretty much any asset as long as the asset provides appropriate levels of risk adjusted returns -- certain assets are clearly far more risky, however, if the returns are sufficient for that level of risk, and that type of investor is able to stomach that risk, they'll happily invest. Imho, BTC has a track record long enough at this point with returns high enough to make it an interesting risky investment for many many institutional investors -- aka, the returns aren't the problem. For example, ask anyone who trades long-dated far-out-of-the-money options how they feel about risky investments. In my opinion, the reliable, safe infrastructure simply isn't there yet to get institutional investors to feel comfortable trading BTC -- it's too much the wild west, with small fly-by-night companies (gox, btc-e, etc) having large market share in the exchange markets.

Just my $0.02.

go to bitcoin.de.

It's backed by a bank that is a daughter to a very big german bank. BTC supply there isn't endless but you could take your time to buy up coins...

yes they have an english version.
full member
Activity: 125
Merit: 100
March 11, 2014, 05:21:31 PM
#80
The best investors on Wall Street will continue going long on U.S. businesses and likely won't buy bitcoin.  A 3x leveraged NASDAQ ETF is less risky than bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
March 11, 2014, 04:55:26 PM
#79
Is China really trending higher again, our media is still saying they "restricted BTC" and Russia banned it.
Are the China exchanges doing good again?....sorry I don't know.
They are doing better than they did after those recent events.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
March 11, 2014, 04:48:21 PM
#78
There is no regulated financial industry surrounding cryptocurrencies. There are no laws that will protect them or favor them.

I say bring it on. Let's see what these traders can do on a level playing field without a central bank and their buddies in Congress to bail them out.
My hero. Cheesy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f_HsjpSVaI

Somewhere after midnight
In my wildest fantasies
Somewhere just beyond my reach
There's someone reaching back for me
Racing on the thunder and rising with the heat
Isn't there a superman to sweep me off my feet?

 Cool

Quote
I think they are afraid of real free markets after having their own little corrupt racket for decades, coddling them, making them fat, dim-witted and slow.

No heroes left on Wall Street, that's for sure.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
March 11, 2014, 04:35:49 PM
#77

Quote
I say bring it on. Let's see what these traders can do on a level playing field without a central bank and their buddies in Congress to bail them out.

Bring it!

let's see what ya got wall st.... men or mice Smiley

I think they are afraid of real free markets after having their own little corrupt racket for decades, coddling them, making them fat, dim-witted and slow.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU
March 11, 2014, 04:24:39 PM
#76
There is no regulated financial industry surrounding cryptocurrencies. There are no laws that will protect them or favor them.

I say bring it on. Let's see what these traders can do on a level playing field without a central bank and their buddies in Congress to bail them out.
My hero. Cheesy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f_HsjpSVaI
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
March 11, 2014, 04:04:48 PM
#75
Wall Street?

Ye gods, I hope never. They don't deserve the wealth.
They will, sooner or later. When they see with how  less money you can manipulate the market in XX% they will smell the blood. Wink

Some things to keep in mind if, in fact, groups of large investors attempt this.

  • The required investment would push prices sky high, making existing holders extraordinary wealthy. There are only ~12 million bitcoins in existence, and most of them are not for sale.
  • Bitcoin traders are resistant to wild price swings, are thick-skinned against fraud and can spot market manipulation. Blockchain analysis and the open source nature of the community would help to hold any naughty whales accountable.
  • Bitcoiners are generally highly intelligent and understand how the underlying protocol works. Wall Street and their friends in the media do not.
  • Crypto traders already program highly sophisticated trading bots (see cryptotrader.org) that rival or will simply copy what Wall Street brings in. If Wall Street money is imminent, traders will be ready to profit.
  • There is no regulated financial industry surrounding cryptocurrencies. There are no laws that will protect them or favor them.

I say bring it on. Let's see what these traders can do on a level playing field without a central bank and their buddies in Congress to bail them out.
newbie
Activity: 10
Merit: 0
March 11, 2014, 07:33:21 AM
#74
Thanks for the feedback on my post guys. As a few people responded to it, I'll try to address all follow-up comments in this post:

Putting a few hundred thousand dollars into an investment like bitcoin would be something I'd be happy to do - the risk adjusted returns are within my risk profile. I haven't. The reason is I don't trust any of the exchanges.

Thanks for your input. But I don't think I understand your position. If you would be happy to buy and hodl (as per your statement), rather than HFT, why wold you not: transfer whatever amount you are comfortable to an exchange (e.g. $5000?); buy XBT with the USD; withdraw the XBT to your personal wallet on your computer; rinse and repeat until you've exchanged your hundreds of thousands?  You exposure to counterparty risk can be limited to whatever figure you keep on the exchange at any one time.

Alternately, if you really want to take a position of hundreds of thousands, I would imagine you might be interesting to someone like BitPay, whose biz model requires a regular source of $ for which they would provide XBT. You might contact them directly and ask.

This definitely would make me feel comfortable with the amount of risk, but it's a lot of work, even for someone like me who I'd only consider a small investor in comparison to general Wall Street types you guys are after. For example, a typical position size in any particular given stock for me on any given day may be ~mid six-figures. To acquire that $ amount of bitcoins by the method you mentioned, I'd have to "rinse and repeat" 100+ times. If each time even took only a single day, that's still 3+ months to enter a position. And that's for someone like me who is pretty small potatoes in the Wall Street world. Let alone the fact that Wall Street people tend to make a decent amount of money, so dealing with that every day has a high real-dollar opportunity cost in terms of their time. And that's just for a small/mid-sized investor like myself. Large funds are the type you'd really want, and they'd come in and pick up 10, 20, 30 million dollars of BTC at a time. That'd never work for them. You need a way that an investor can come safely and buy up BTC all in one go.


Wall street types are happy to accept financial risk, but aren't very fond of counterparty risk, especially if we can't hedge it off onto someone else. At the moment that's not particularly possible. If you got even a single reputable financial institution (bank, equity/commodity exchange, something of that nature) to operate a BTC exchange, we'd come flocking.

You could always buy from SecondMarket... Check them out.

SecondMarket is actually probably a good option - I wasn't aware of them being an option at all in fact, didn't know their exchange had launched yet. They're a known quantity nowadays in the private-company-shares market, as many large institutional investors have conducted business with them for the past couple of years in trading private shares. They have a track record of not just running away with your money, and also of not getting hacked (thus far, heh). Their involvement in BTC will be very positive for the bitcoin community, imho.


Don't understand your point? If you want buy and hold you don't must leave your coins/money at any untrustful exchange. Buy few coins and send the coins to you wallet and keep the coins safe. Or buy at local Bitcoin seller, or buy in many steps small amounts at any exchanger (even to avoid to affect the price with your hundreds or millions of $$  Roll Eyes)...or or or... Many many possible and safe ways to do...Easy as that...

If you are that big stockmarket trader as you say (doubts are allowed) you might be able to handle risk of small amounts. You gonna lose same or more at stock market trades everyday.

Same as above, that's just not realistic for the type of investment you guys want to get from Wall Street -- you want to make it easy for people to acquire large quantities of bitcoins all at once (millions of dollars). Local isn't a realistic option for both that reason, and hassle, and probably legal reasons. As far as not "leaving the BTC on the exchange" -- I agree with you 100% there, and never was advocating leaving any assets at the exchange for an extended period of time at all. But even a couple hours of having Mt Gox have any large quantity of my money for instance would be too much and deter me from trading it.

Well I guess he wants to do it at once as he is used to with more established financial institutions.

I kinda can see why an Wall Street investor will have problems wiring money to Japan to the company of a fat 29 year old jerk.
Even in $50k increments.

Very well said Wink

That's total bullshit, counterparty risk is the only reason you won't get into btc lol.

Find some miners who will sell you blocks, go on localbitcoins, there are people offering up to $100,000 trades actually located on Wall street.

You're basically just shilling for secondmarket, or you'll announce soon that wannabe investors no longer need worry about counterparty risk because.....some company you're involved with has sorted out this issue you have created.

I wasn't even aware the SecondMarket exchange had launched, and I have no companies involved in BTC at all atm, nor do I plan on launching any at the moment, so no worries there hah. I have no agenda here, I've never even conducted a single trade on any exchange with bitcoin. Just trying to give some insight into how people who work in my world think about things like this, thats all. Localbitcoins is an absurd option to me for a wall street type trade.

tl;dr: You want to make it as safe and easy as possible for large institutional investors to come and buy bitcoins. Not $5k at a time, not $50k at a time, not even $100k at a time. You want the guy who runs a $2 billion dollar fund and wants to allocate $20 million of it to bitcoin to come in and be able to deposit $20 mil at the exchange and run a TWAP buy algorithm over the following few days and get his whole position in one swoop from one exchange. That's how you get real wall street money involved, and that real wall street money would probably crank the BTC price wayyyy up.
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
March 11, 2014, 02:44:05 AM
#73
Wall Street?

Ye gods, I hope never. They don't deserve the wealth.
They will, sooner or later. When they see with how  less money you can manipulate the market in XX% they will smell the blood. Wink
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU
March 11, 2014, 02:38:22 AM
#72
Wall Street?

Ye gods, I hope never. They don't deserve the wealth.
TPN
full member
Activity: 193
Merit: 100
How did it get so late, so soon?
March 11, 2014, 01:22:39 AM
#71
Sooner or later they will jump in Wink
Pages:
Jump to: