Where are those Bitshares' Shills? | Bitcointalksearch.org

StanLarimer

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The ELI5 point of my profoundly sophisticated analogy is that the market sets the price of everything.

A paper $20 bill still has value based on what I can get in exchange for it - despite what I may think of what is "backing" it.

All the pros and cons, benefits and risks, of any financial asset are rolled up into its instantaneous market price.

So, no matter whether people like you think it should be less or people like me think it should be more, neither side is statistically willing, by definition, to take less or pay more than the current market price.

Inside the BitShares market we have set the trading rules (engineered the incentives) so that natural market forces provide feedback to drive the value of bitAssets toward their pegs and provide sufficient collateral to hold them there over a very wide range of price movements in the underlying BTS asset.

BitShares is a suite of well-defined financial products, documented and enforced by open source software, which the market will continue to price based on a balance their perceived risks and rewards.

...regardless of what emotions any one of us may feel about it.

testz

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1018

Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on March 25, 2015, 12:50:57 AM

Quote from: StanLarimer on March 24, 2015, 01:25:43 PM

My friend and I were walking along a sidewalk when I spotted a $20 bill lying in our path.

As I picked it up he warned, "Don't bother with that, it's not Fully Redeemable for a $20 Gold Coin any more!"

I stuffed the bill in my pocket.

Lol. What a pathetic analogy. The difference between USD and bitUSD is that USD is a fiat currency (backed by government mandate) and bitUSD is a derivatives contract that isn't backed by anything. Regardless of what the Bitshares Foundation says, just because bitUSD can be sold for BTS and BTS for BTC and BTC for USD, it doesn't make bitUSD backed by USD. Stop trying to led people to believe that bitUSD is just as good as USD and that it's "Safer than a Swiss bank account!". Even with "Gateways", the entire bitAsset float isn't (and never will be) fully redeemable.

This analogy which misrepresents the truth is a perfect example of why so many people oppose Bitshares. Bitshares purpose isn't to help people escape monetary policies which are detrimental to their well-being. Instead, you are putting people at greater risk of financial loss by trying to convince them to trade their real assets for derivative contracts.

Do you want to discuss this again?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10804487

DecentralizeEconomics

legendary

Activity: 1162

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White Male Libertarian Bro

Quote from: StanLarimer on March 24, 2015, 01:25:43 PM

My friend and I were walking along a sidewalk when I spotted a $20 bill lying in our path.

As I picked it up he warned, "Don't bother with that, it's not Fully Redeemable for a $20 Gold Coin any more!"

I stuffed the bill in my pocket.

Lol. What a pathetic analogy. The difference between USD and bitUSD is that USD is a fiat currency (backed by government mandate) and bitUSD is a derivatives contract that isn't backed by anything. Regardless of what the Bitshares Foundation says, just because bitUSD can be sold for BTS and BTS for BTC and BTC for USD, it doesn't make bitUSD backed by USD. Stop trying to led people to believe that bitUSD is just as good as USD and that it's "Safer than a Swiss bank account!". Even with "Gateways", the entire bitAsset float isn't (and never will be) fully redeemable.

This analogy which misrepresents the truth is a perfect example of why so many people oppose Bitshares. Bitshares purpose isn't to help people escape monetary policies which are detrimental to their well-being. Instead, you are putting people at greater risk of financial loss by trying to convince them to trade their real assets for derivative contracts.

StanLarimer

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 504

My friend and I were walking along a sidewalk when I spotted a $20 bill lying in our path.

As I picked it up he warned, "Don't bother with that, it's not Fully Redeemable for a $20 Gold Coin any more!"

I stuffed the bill in my pocket.

brekyrself

hero member

Activity: 547

Merit: 502

Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on March 24, 2015, 01:36:43 AM

Quote from: brekyrself on March 24, 2015, 01:18:39 AM

Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on March 24, 2015, 01:15:00 AM

Let me spell it out for you mental midgets who support this scam. The average user is going to get unnecessarily stopped out by market volatility causing them to lose money. They will end up holding BTS and not "bitUSD". Unless the "asset" is fully redeemable, IT IS UNETHICAL TO CLAIM THEY ARE JUST AS GOOD AS THE REAL ASSET. Those of you who continue to advocate and market this ridiculous scheme are fleecing people who do not know any better and causing them to unnecessarily lose money. When your "assets" can be force liquidated, IT IS NOT "SAFER THAN A SWISS BANK ACCOUNT"!

If there was a gateway (on/off ramp) that would redeem any of the assets 1/1 buy or sell would this solve the issue?

Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on March 24, 2015, 01:15:00 AM

Unless the "asset" is fully redeemable, IT IS UNETHICAL TO CLAIM THEY ARE JUST AS GOOD AS THE REAL ASSET.

The "asset" must be fully redeemable. No convertibility = No parity.

I've heard about these "gateways" aka "on/off ramps". The problem with them is they don't guarantee redeemability. When the "bitassets" blow up, which they will, they have no legal obligation to make "bitAsset" holders whole. Also, what type of an complete moron would accept non-redeemable, fake "bitAssets" in exchange for the real, physical asset? Sure they might make a 1% commission on each trade, but they would have to be completely out of their mind to hold a positive amount of "bitAssets". You can be sure that any BTS "gateway" is going to hold a negative amount of "bitAssets".

http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/22/Use-Gold-and-Silver-with-BitShares-to-bypass-Fiat-Regulations/

Precious metal businesses are already setup for this kind of transaction and could make money off the spread of the metal's themselves and the commission on each trade. This provides a new type of customer thus another revenue stream.

chryspano

legendary

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixgc_FGam3s

Zer0Sum

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Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on March 24, 2015, 01:36:43 AM

The "asset" must be fully redeemable. No convertibility = No parity.

I've heard about these "gateways" aka "on/off ramps". The problem with them is they don't guarantee redeemability. When the "bitassets" blow up, which they will, they have no legal obligation to make "bitAsset" holders whole. Also, what type of an complete moron would accept non-redeemable, fake "bitAssets" in exchange for the real, physical asset? Sure they might make a 1% commission on each trade, but they would have to be completely out of their mind to hold a positive amount of "bitAssets". You can be sure that any BTS "gateway" is going to hold a negative amount of "bitAssets".

Also, the "no counterparty risk" is complete bullshit...
The BTS Devs = Larimers are your high risk counterparty since they control the BTS currency.

This is all a waste of time...
Because Wall Street will make this kind of BTS nonsense obsolete within 6 months...
You already got the GBTC in the Pink Sheets...
And with the Winklevoss ETF you will have hedging, shorting and options on BTC from your brokerage account.

testz

legendary

Activity: 1764

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Welcome back DE, looks like you was in vacation.

Lot of work ahead, be ready for new communist fork - Ethereum.

DecentralizeEconomics

legendary

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White Male Libertarian Bro

Quote from: brekyrself on March 24, 2015, 01:18:39 AM

Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on March 24, 2015, 01:15:00 AM

Let me spell it out for you mental midgets who support this scam. The average user is going to get unnecessarily stopped out by market volatility causing them to lose money. They will end up holding BTS and not "bitUSD". Unless the "asset" is fully redeemable, IT IS UNETHICAL TO CLAIM THEY ARE JUST AS GOOD AS THE REAL ASSET. Those of you who continue to advocate and market this ridiculous scheme are fleecing people who do not know any better and causing them to unnecessarily lose money. When your "assets" can be force liquidated, IT IS NOT "SAFER THAN A SWISS BANK ACCOUNT"!

If there was a gateway (on/off ramp) that would redeem any of the assets 1/1 buy or sell would this solve the issue?

Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on March 24, 2015, 01:15:00 AM

Unless the "asset" is fully redeemable, IT IS UNETHICAL TO CLAIM THEY ARE JUST AS GOOD AS THE REAL ASSET.

The "asset" must be fully redeemable. No convertibility = No parity.

I've heard about these "gateways" aka "on/off ramps". The problem with them is they don't guarantee redeemability. When the "bitassets" blow up, which they will, they have no legal obligation to make "bitAsset" holders whole. Also, what type of an complete moron would accept non-redeemable, fake "bitAssets" in exchange for the real, physical asset? Sure they might make a 1% commission on each trade, but they would have to be completely out of their mind to hold a positive amount of "bitAssets". You can be sure that any BTS "gateway" is going to hold a negative amount of "bitAssets".

brekyrself

hero member

Activity: 547

Merit: 502

Quote from: DecentralizeEconomics on March 24, 2015, 01:15:00 AM

Let me spell it out for you mental midgets who support this scam. The average user is going to get unnecessarily stopped out by market volatility causing them to lose money. They will end up holding BTS and not "bitUSD". Unless the "asset" is fully redeemable, IT IS UNETHICAL TO CLAIM THEY ARE JUST AS GOOD AS THE REAL ASSET. Those of you who continue to advocate and market this ridiculous scheme are fleecing people who do not know any better and causing them to unnecessarily lose money. When your "assets" can be force liquidated, IT IS NOT "SAFER THAN A SWISS BANK ACCOUNT"!

If there was a gateway (on/off ramp) that would redeem any of the assets 1/1 buy or sell would this solve the issue?

DecentralizeEconomics

legendary

Activity: 1162

Merit: 1042

White Male Libertarian Bro

Let me spell it out for you mental midgets who support this scam. The average user is going to get unnecessarily stopped out by market volatility causing them to lose money. They will end up holding BTS and not "bitUSD". Unless the "asset" is fully redeemable, IT IS UNETHICAL TO CLAIM THEY ARE JUST AS GOOD AS THE REAL ASSET. Those of you who continue to advocate and market this ridiculous scheme are fleecing people who do not know any better and causing them to unnecessarily lose money. When your "assets" can be force liquidated, IT IS NOT "SAFER THAN A SWISS BANK ACCOUNT"!

HalFinneysBrain

full member

Activity: 201

Merit: 100

Quote from: onemorexmr on March 17, 2015, 02:40:15 PM

this only works as BTS does'nt loose more than 50% of its value, right?

It works as long as BTS doesn't lose 50% of its value *instantly*, and then not recover afterwards.

If the price has a flash crash, tanking to nothing and then bouncing most of the way back up again, due to a bug/bad trade on exchange/whatever, then things are fine, because the price feeds dont update that quickly.

If the price declines a lot, but over a reasonable period of time, then positions get unwound by margin calls, but asset holders get their correct value back. (This has occurred over the past several months).

Only if the price instantly drops a huge amount and then stays down do things break.

HalFinneysBrain

full member

Activity: 201

Merit: 100

Quote from: onemorexmr on March 17, 2015, 02:54:42 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Actually at 33% drop the deal is unwound (automatically margin called) and you get your dollar's worth at that point.

what does this mean? do you incorporate a fiat exchange?

or does this mean i get bts worth of usd at 33% (if bts goes even lower so do my new bts)?

It means you get BTS worth a dollar at that time. It could then go up or down.

Pheonike

newbie

Activity: 46

Merit: 0

Right now if you add up all the BitAssets(bitusd,bitgold,etc) they are worth approximately $620,000. BTS would have to fall to under $2mill in order for people not to be able to get the full value of their assets back. That means there would have to be sudden 10x fall in the value of BTS in matter of hours for the system to break.

StanLarimer

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 504

See if this helps...

BitAssets and Black Swan Events

and there's a good discussion on this right now going on over on the Puppies thread...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=940298.msg10803768#msg10803768

onemorexmr

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 251

Quote from: ?? on ??

Actually at 33% drop the deal is unwound (automatically margin called) and you get your dollar's worth at that point.

what does this mean? do you incorporate a fiat exchange?

or does this mean i get bts worth of usd at 33% (if bts goes even lower so do my new bts)?

testz

legendary

Activity: 1764

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Quote from: onemorexmr on March 17, 2015, 02:40:15 PM

Quote from: StanLarimer on March 17, 2015, 02:38:24 PM

No, bitUSD is pegged to the dollar backed by BTS.

It represents the value of one dollar denominated in BTS.

(i.e. the blockchain will pay you enough BTS out of the escrowed collateral to buy a dollar when you cash out.)

This is rhetorically equivalent to the SLV silver ETF paying you enough dollars to buy an ounce of silver, not the silver itself.

this only works as BTS does'nt loose more than 50% of its value, right?

No, it's works even BTS lose more than 50% of it's value.
Last 6 months show what it's works, BTS price drops from 0.00011000 BTC to 0.00002900 BTC

onemorexmr

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Activity: 252

Merit: 251

Quote from: StanLarimer on March 17, 2015, 02:38:24 PM

No, bitUSD is pegged to the dollar backed by BTS.

It represents the value of one dollar denominated in BTS.

(i.e. the blockchain will pay you enough BTS out of the escrowed collateral to buy a dollar when you cash out.)

This is rhetorically equivalent to the SLV silver ETF paying you enough dollars to buy an ounce of silver, not the silver itself.

this only works as BTS does'nt loose more than 50% of its value, right?

StanLarimer

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 504

Quote from: bitcreditscc on March 17, 2015, 02:26:02 PM

Quote from: testz on March 17, 2015, 02:24:35 PM

Quote from: bitcreditscc on March 17, 2015, 02:14:23 PM

Quote from: StanLarimer on March 17, 2015, 02:02:13 PM

More than full support. Every single one of them is backed by over twice their pegged value in BTS collateral, held incorruptibly by the block chain.

Thing is Stan if your BTS go useless, so does my bitUSD. So, don't mislead people. BitUSD is pegged to BTS, not the USD.

Don't mislead the people BitUSD is pegged to USD, by 300% collateral in BTS.
About "What if BTS go useless" read here: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/27/BitAssets-and-Black-Swan-Events/

so BitUSD is pegged to 300% collateral BTS, not the USD.

No, bitUSD is pegged to the dollar backed by BTS.

It represents the value of one dollar denominated in BTS.

(i.e. the blockchain will pay you enough BTS out of the escrowed collateral to buy a dollar when you cash out.)

This is rhetorically equivalent to the SLV silver ETF paying you enough dollars to buy an ounce of silver, not the silver itself.

testz

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Quote from: bitcreditscc on March 17, 2015, 02:26:02 PM

Quote from: testz on March 17, 2015, 02:24:35 PM

Quote from: bitcreditscc on March 17, 2015, 02:14:23 PM

Quote from: StanLarimer on March 17, 2015, 02:02:13 PM

More than full support. Every single one of them is backed by over twice their pegged value in BTS collateral, held incorruptibly by the block chain.

Thing is Stan if your BTS go useless, so does my bitUSD. So, don't mislead people. BitUSD is pegged to BTS, not the USD.

Don't mislead the people BitUSD is pegged to USD, by 300% collateral in BTS.
About "What if BTS go useless" read here: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/27/BitAssets-and-Black-Swan-Events/

so BitUSD is pegged to 300% collateral BTS, not the USD.

Yes, but miracle!!!

it's somehow always approximately equal to USD:
http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/bitusd/#markets

Topic: Where are those Bitshares' Shills? (Read 3824 times)