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Topic: White House Petition to AMEND IRS NOTICE 2014-2 Taxing virtual currency/Bitcoin - page 3. (Read 4409 times)

legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090

IRS ruling clearly indicates there are 2 possible ways of acquiring btc:

1) Mining:  a taxable event that will be in your gross income based on fair market value of the mined coins. There will be another taxable event when you sell those coins, thus fall into capital gain.

That one sounds problematic. There are any number of reasons why the coins are not worth, in your mining machine that mined them, what any market happens to be offering for someone else's bitcoins already on that market at that time.

You might not even actually have any bitcoins by the time you actually go to move them off the mining machine to somewhere else, let alone by the time you actually get clearance at an exchange to exchange them.

So it seems unreasonable. Until you sell them you have no idea whether they are worth anything at all, they are a digital fiction that might someday turn out to be worth something but then again might not.

Same thing when you "farm" a magic sword or a pile of gold in World of Warcraft. Until you actually manage to sell them they are more a waste of time effort and money than any kind of gain, regardless of how many "exchanges" exist at which you hypothetically "could" sell them or exchange them.

Mining is like growing pork bellies, or milking cows, or growing wheat. Until you actually trade the stuff you won't know if it was worth anything at all.

For that matter how does mineral mining work?

Do coal mines pay tax each time a miner swings a shovel and mines another spadeful of coal?

In bitcoin mining I pour my capital into hardware and electricity (and hopefully into electricity-creating hardware) and someday hope to sell coins for more capital than I spend mining them.

-MarkM-
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
The IRS sees you get some income via a report (required by law) via a third party.

None of my bitcoins came from parties knowing my name.
Clearly You're one of those sheep who purchased from Mt. Gox, ROFLMAO.
Clearly, I'm not announcing an attempt to evade taxes on a public forum.  ROFLMAO.
I'm just not ignorant of the ways that the IRS can put you in jail.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Then by all means, let us know how it goes a year from now Cheesy

A better test, A year from now, Will I.R.S. have prosecuted anybody.

I suspect at least a few incredibly foolish newbies will get the hammer from the greedy yet indebted U.S. government.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
The IRS sees you get some income via a report (required by law) via a third party.

None of my bitcoins came from parties knowing my name.
Clearly You're one of those sheep who purchased from Mt. Gox, ROFLMAO.

If you can evade taxes, more power to you.  But for the rest of us,
It's still not a problem.  
newbie
Activity: 1
Merit: 0
i want to see what comes out with this coin.

1MBkYr5p7126sdtyZ4aG7neny4Tjkuynqc

Thanks
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
The IRS sees you get some income via a report (required by law) via a third party.

None of my bitcoins came from parties knowing my name.
Clearly You're one of those sheep who purchased from Mt. Gox, ROFLMAO.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
You will fall into " receiving funds from outside of U.S." and its not pretty when I.R.S ask you.

We have some rights, the fifth amendment is one of them.

The legal burden of proving ownership would be on the I.R.S. I would not be legally obligated to say anything.

The fact: they will not be able to enforce these tax rules.

This all said, I'm gonna go wash my coins real quick, Pretty sure my IP is in the ledger from the last time I transferred them.

Then by all means, let us know how it goes a year from now Cheesy

member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
You will fall into " receiving funds from outside of U.S." and its not pretty when I.R.S ask you.

We have some rights, the fifth amendment is one of them.

The legal burden of proving ownership would be on the I.R.S. I would not be legally obligated to say anything.

The fact: they will not be able to enforce these tax rules.

Here's where you're wrong:  
The IRS sees you get some income via a report (required by law) via a third party.
The IRS notes that you didn't report this income on your tax return.
The IRS takes you to tax court as a civil action, not a criminal action, if you disagree with their findings.   The IRS supposes that you owe tax on all that income.  It is a civil action, so the court doesn't require the IRS proving that it was income beyond a reasonable doubt.  You are not innocent until proven guilty, as you would be in criminal court.
The tax court judge orders that you pay the tax.
It becomes criminal when you don't follow the court order.  The IRS must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you did not follow the court order for a conviction.
hero member
Activity: 1470
Merit: 504
Do you have reading comprehensive problem? English isnt my first language and i can even understand IRS ruling perfectly.

Do you understand what "capital gain" mean? Think about it for 5 sec.....Let me explain to you what IRS is saying:

MINING will not be taxed as capital gain (since there is no capital in the first place ...duh), it will be included in gross income.

Capital gain ONLY APPLIES to SELL AND BUY btc as bitcoin is a property.

So any mining income will be taxable income. When you sell those mined btc, you might have capital gain/loss. Remember the max capital loss you can claim per year is $3k, the rest will be rolled to next year.

Not true, please read it again. When you mine a Bitcoin you must pay capital gains tax equivalent to the market value at the time it enters your wallet. The capital gains tax is at a higher rate than regular income within the first year. When you mine a Bitcoin you are responsible for the capital gains tax at a rate of 36% and future gains will be taxed at the time of sale.

You can only claim regular income on USD; not Bitcoin.

If you hold Bitcoin longer than one year your tax rate decreases.

Ok, you're just an idiot. At first i had my doubt, but you confirmed it

Quote
Q: Does a taxpayer who "mines" virtual currency (for example, uses computer resources to validate Bitcoin transactions

and maintain the public Bitcoin transaction ledger) realize gross income upon receipt of the virtual currency resulting

from those activities?

A: Yes, when a taxpayer successfully "mines" virtual currency, the fair market value of the virtual currency as of the

date of receipt is includible in gross income. See Publication 525, Taxable and Nontaxable Income, for more information


When an ESL has to explain English to you, you know you're stupid.


http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf

You are correct. I based my opinion for the tax treatment on mining off of bad sources.

The capital gains reporting is only on Bitcoin sales; the market price at the time a coin is mined will be reported as regular income on W-2 or 1099.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
You will fall into " receiving funds from outside of U.S." and its not pretty when I.R.S ask you.

We have some rights, the fifth amendment is one of them.

The legal burden of proving ownership would be on the I.R.S. I would not be legally obligated to say anything.

The fact: they will not be able to enforce these tax rules.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
When you think about it, the IRS ruling encourages miners to sell their coins on the open market sooner rather than hoarding and selling later.  Seems to possibly help liquidity and stability of bitcoin.

That is a misunderstanding.   The capital gains rates are lower than regular income rates to encourage investment, over actually running a business or working for a living.



In any event, I don't think any of this is going to effect bitcoin much.
The big point in all of this is the good news that the irs is helping
To legitimize bitcoin rather than trying to help ban it.

Actually trading btc falls into capital gain is a good news. It would reduce day traders due to higher risk (up to 43% of profit is taxable)

As for big investor like Secondmarket, they're more likely holding their btc for long term capital gain.


Wouldn't it still be capital gains if btc was currency

Nope

Quote
Where there are currency gains or losses in connection with a trade or business or with the management or administration of investment assets, the gain is treated as an ordinary gain (rather than as a capital gain) and any loss is generally treated as an expense
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
Besides, you could just claim all your BTC was gifted to you by a non-US citizen.

Unless they can prove you're lying in a court of law, you're fine.

Not a loophole, gifts are regarded as taxable income, unless you are legally a non-profit corporation.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Bitcoin was designed in a way that you should all be able to safely ignore the I.R.S. on this issue.
I dare you to do what you said if you live in U.S.
I intend to.
Unless your total btc holding is worth couple thousands USD.
Pennies worth, billions worth, makes little difference.
The same hurdle exists, Proof of ownership.
Anybody can wash their bitcoins much easier than fiat.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
Not a single Satoshi I own is traceable to me as a individual.
Anybody could own my BTC, there is no way for the I.R.S. to prove otherwise.
QFT.

Localbitcoins + cash = perfect anonymity.

Besides, you could just claim all your BTC was gifted to you by a non-US citizen.

Unless they can prove you're lying in a court of law, you're fine.

See if they spend the money on you. Unless you're a WHALE, they won't bother.

Terrible advice, you sound like  just you're just a kid whos thinking about tax recently.

You will fall into " receiving funds from outside of U.S." and its not pretty when I.R.S ask you.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Bitcoin each coin can be individually tracked through the hash, good this way.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
When you think about it, the IRS ruling encourages miners to sell their coins on the open market sooner rather than hoarding and selling later.  Seems to possibly help liquidity and stability of bitcoin.

That is a misunderstanding.   The capital gains rates are lower than regular income rates to encourage investment, over actually running a business or working for a living.



In any event, I don't think any of this is going to effect bitcoin much.
The big point in all of this is the good news that the irs is helping
To legitimize bitcoin rather than trying to help ban it.

Actually trading btc falls into capital gain is a good news. It would reduce day traders due to higher risk (up to 43% of profit is taxable)

As for big investor like Secondmarket, they're more likely holding their btc for long term capital gain.


Wouldn't it still be capital gains if btc was currency
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
Who cares wtf the I.R.S. does.

Not a single Satoshi I own is traceable to me as a individual.
Anybody could own my BTC, there is no way for the I.R.S. to prove otherwise.

Bitcoin was designed in a way that you should all be able to safely ignore the I.R.S. on this issue.
In reality most of BTC value is attributed to that fact, silkroad is what gave BTC value, gambling sites also helped.

I dare you to do what you said if you live in U.S.

Unless your total btc holding is worth couple thousands USD.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
https://youtu.be/PZm8TTLR2NU
Not a single Satoshi I own is traceable to me as a individual.
Anybody could own my BTC, there is no way for the I.R.S. to prove otherwise.
QFT.

Localbitcoins + cash = perfect anonymity.

Besides, you could just claim all your BTC was gifted to you by a non-US citizen.

Unless they can prove you're lying in a court of law, you're fine.

See if they spend the money on you. Unless you're a WHALE, they won't bother.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
When you think about it, the IRS ruling encourages miners to sell their coins on the open market sooner rather than hoarding and selling later.  Seems to possibly help liquidity and stability of bitcoin.

That is a misunderstanding.   The capital gains rates are lower than regular income rates to encourage investment, over actually running a business or working for a living.



In any event, I don't think any of this is going to effect bitcoin much.
The big point in all of this is the good news that the irs is helping
To legitimize bitcoin rather than trying to help ban it.

Actually trading btc falls into capital gain is a good news. It would reduce day traders due to higher risk (up to 43% of profit is taxable)

As for big investor like Secondmarket, they're more likely holding their btc for long term capital gain.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
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