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Topic: Who Pays What? - page 8. (Read 36785 times)

legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1015
August 16, 2012, 11:59:02 PM
The bulk of the OP contents will be reinstated later today.  This has been a useful exercise demonstrating the bias of particular people against those actively working to improve the Bitcoin economy.

The OP will be restructured and include the following features:

  • Only those with business models that are apparent or have been disclosed will be listed.
  • To be listed, issuers will need to submit and agree to publication of their financial metrics (the credit rating system).
Awesome! Finally, some accountability.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Bitcoin today is what the internet was in 1998.
August 16, 2012, 06:32:54 PM
time for a new invite only forum... oh so gladamas its in the works...

So I get an invite?

A new invite-only forum (no troll attempt intended) would be useful for major Bitcoiners, but then no newbies could contribute without an invite. Sad
sr. member
Activity: 449
Merit: 250
August 16, 2012, 06:00:26 PM
The bulk of the OP contents will be reinstated later today.  This has been a useful exercise demonstrating the bias of particular people against those actively working to improve the Bitcoin economy.

The OP will be restructured and include the following features:

  • Only those with business models that are apparent or have been disclosed will be listed.
  • To be listed, issuers will need to submit and agree to publication of their financial metrics (the credit rating system).

Patrick - would you care to get into details about why you pulled the OP in the first place? You've been rather coy about your reasoning so far. For instance you at first said you removed it "in protest." In protest of WHAT exactly? I'm not getting your message, if you intended one.

That said, I think it's a great idea for us as depositors/lenders to demand more disclosure from those seeking to borrow such large sums of money. I welcome the changes you're implementing in the WPW listing and thank you for using the solid rep that you've earned to set a better example for the community.
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1000
August 16, 2012, 04:48:52 PM
Thank you for your Service Patrick
This.
hero member
Activity: 632
Merit: 500
August 16, 2012, 03:54:29 PM
time for a new invite only forum... oh so glad its in the works...

Where do we sign up?  Smiley
Emphasis mine...

I know, I can still ask for an invite.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
August 16, 2012, 03:50:05 PM
The bulk of the OP contents will be reinstated later today.  This has been a useful exercise demonstrating the bias of particular people against those actively working to improve the Bitcoin economy.

The OP will be restructured and include the following features:

  • Only those with business models that are apparent or have been disclosed will be listed.
  • To be listed, issuers will need to submit and agree to publication of their financial metrics (the credit rating system).



legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1077
August 16, 2012, 03:40:21 PM
time for a new invite only forum... oh so glad its in the works...

Where do we sign up?  Smiley
Emphasis mine...
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
August 16, 2012, 03:34:51 PM
time for a new invite only forum... oh so glad its in the works...

Maybe not conducive to your desire for more investors...

I have no such desire unless you want to invest in the new forum  Grin

Wtf, a new forum?
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1015
August 16, 2012, 01:25:27 PM
Well, if someone else wants to do this, now is your chance to get a sticky.
member
Activity: 103
Merit: 10
August 16, 2012, 11:12:15 AM
time for a new invite only forum... oh so glad its in the works...

Maybe not conducive to your desire for more investors...
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1003
Ron Gross
August 15, 2012, 11:49:00 PM
What's with the first post? Why is it removed? Patrick?

A minor protest.

Can you post some links for those of us who haven't seen any of that?
member
Activity: 114
Merit: 12
August 15, 2012, 06:27:40 PM
Ah, i could see how that would get under your skin. Patrick should know that success comes with its detractors.

You cant have a ying without a yang unfortunately.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
August 15, 2012, 05:43:16 PM
What are we protesting ?

The accusations and insults shooting all over the place these days, I think...
member
Activity: 114
Merit: 12
August 15, 2012, 05:32:56 PM
What are we protesting ?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
August 15, 2012, 04:14:15 PM
What's with the first post? Why is it removed? Patrick?

A minor protest.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
August 15, 2012, 04:12:55 PM
What's with the first post? Why is it removed? Patrick?
member
Activity: 86
Merit: 10
August 14, 2012, 08:52:24 PM
After talking with Patrick we thought it could be beneficial to some members of the community if credit ratings (C/B/BB/BBB/A/AA/AAA) were briefly summarized.

The general meaning of credit rating opinions is summarized below:

Code:
Rating:         Description:
AAA             Extremely strong capacity to meet financial commitments. Highest Rating.
AA              Very strong capacity to meet financial commitments.
A               Strong capacity to meet financial commitments, but somewhat susceptible to adverse economic conditions and changes in circumstances.
BBB             Adequate capacity to meet financial commitments, but more subject to adverse economic conditions.
BB              Less vulnerable in the near-term but faces major ongoing uncertainties to adverse business, financial and economic conditions.
B               More vulnerable to adverse business, financial and economic conditions but currently has the capacity to meet financial commitments.
C               Currently highly vulnerable obligations and other defined circumstances.

Note: Ratings may be modified by the addition of a plus (+) or minus (-) sign to show relative standing within the major rating categories.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
August 14, 2012, 05:51:58 PM
Again - thank you for your points and thinking (and your posts in various other threads).

One of the things to keep in mind is that the people taking deposits are a wide mix of operating models.  Some are more like banks or financial institutions, others more like start-ups seeking capital for expansion or working capital to do something (maybe mining, maybe trading).

Fundamental to the ratings is if there are assets to cover liabilities, and if things go wrong, how badly wrong does it go.

If I had one customer with a 10000coin on-call deposit, then redeeming that could give me quite a lot of difficulty.  If it is 100 customers of 100 each, that  is much easier.  That is why people should ask to see what the various metrics are.

Also, when I am choosing an investment, I definitely ask questions, including deposit and withdrawal addresses.  For example, with Starfish I run a modestly sized address book with details on 200 customers (receiving and sending) and expect people I deposit with to be able to track my funds.  There are people I am happy to invest with and others not (and there are size breaks too) thus I deposited 2000 coins with someone yesterday, and another person just 10 coins.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
August 14, 2012, 05:32:32 PM
Some interesting points.  Not all of them are applicable to the people offering services.  Some comments/observations:

1: Having higher liquid reserves can be useful, but at a 20-30% level would leave small (by customer number) or poorly diversified operations exposed to contingent events.  Also, the short-term asset market is not as liquid as many people would like.

Not sure what sort of event would be made worse by having extra reserve cash sitting around. Thinking about it, though, the 1-month term for "current debts" is probably a good enough approximation for "short term".

2: Tracking maturities in a "point in time" system is not practical and some CD issuers manage this internally, but not visibly.  It is a cash-flow management issues and relates to solvency (paying debts as they fall due).

Cash flow is a pretty fundamental part of credit analysis :\. It doesn't really need to be tracked exactly, just to make certain that loan/asset terms have similar (or greater) liquidity as the deposit terms.

3: Surplus or net assets - covered.  Should it be greater than 100% is debatable - that goes to risk profile and the nature of the business.

The rule of thumb for non-financial businesses is 1:5 (20% debt) debt/asset ratio or lower preferred, and 1:3 (33%) is running on bankruptcy. For a financial business, higher ratios are acceptable, but the considerations are different. Frankly, if a business chooses a higher risk model, they probably should not have as high of a credit score, and higher leverage means lower ability to repay principle in the event of some unexpected adversity. It does depend on the nature of the business, though, since a mutual fund would have very different considerations (and expected higher leverage) than a more money-market oriented "bank".

There's also incentive to consider, ie a mutual fund owner who charges clients even when he makes a loss does not deserve a high rating.

4: If I wanted to look at security, I'd also look at the kind of websites and other things people do, but there are some clever thieves out there.  That is part of the due diligence anyone should do before investing.  That might also assume coins are sitting idle which is unlikely.

I was thinking more along the lines of the recent forum hack whereby the hacker(s) gained access to other people's accounts and then made withdrawal request PMs to be delivered to a hostile address (client rather than server side compromise). On the other hand, security is probably beyond the scope of credit ratings anyway.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
August 14, 2012, 04:28:57 PM
Hmm.. I've been thinking about this quite a bit. A few tweaks I have in mind:

1) The ratio of "liquid reserves" only needs to match current accounts (ie accounts that can be withdrawn from at any time), and should be between 20-30%. The remainder should be in exclusively short-term assets.

2) For CDs (which have a more limited liquidity requirement), the more important metric is how well the asset maturities match the debt maturities. In other words, if a lender has 100BTC in 3 month CDs, they should have not more than 100BTC in loans/assets with 3 month maturities. Assuming they keep proper liquid reserves, it's less important whether the assets mature exactly when the CDs are due than whether liquid reserves are sufficient and kept replenished.

3) The amount of BTC the lender himself puts down (equity/deposits) should be counted separately, assuming the lender keeps a policy of insuring losses with their own money. This ratio should be ideally 100% or better.

4) Other security practices, like setting up dedicated receiving addresses with accounts and not allowing withdrawals to other addresses, should probably be added under the "non-financial" section. A significant fraction of major BTC losses are security related.

Some interesting points.  Not all of them are applicable to the people offering services.  Some comments/observations:

1: Having higher liquid reserves can be useful, but at a 20-30% level would leave small (by customer number) or poorly diversified operations exposed to contingent events.  Also, the short-term asset market is not as liquid as many people would like. 

2: Tracking maturities in a "point in time" system is not practical and some CD issuers manage this internally, but not visibly.  It is a cash-flow management issues and relates to solvency (paying debts as they fall due).

3: Surplus or net assets - covered.  Should it be greater than 100% is debatable - that goes to risk profile and the nature of the business.

4: If I wanted to look at security, I'd also look at the kind of websites and other things people do, but there are some clever thieves out there.  That is part of the due diligence anyone should do before investing.  That might also assume coins are sitting idle which is unlikely.
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