Topic: WHY 21 MILLION BITCOIN CANNOT SERVE THE WHOLE WORLD - page 3. (Read 887 times)

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 22, 2019, 04:34:24 AM

First, to begin with, you don't pay a few cents for a transaction unless you are willing to wait a couple days till your transaction finally gets confirmed (I've done that and it doesn't work good).

That's just not true. I frequently pay transaction fees of a couple of cents and get confirmed within the hour or even quicker. And as I said before, an unconfirmed bitcoin transaction is still harder to reverse than an unconfirmed credit card transaction

You had it coming

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 22, 2019, 04:34:24 AM

Further, most everyday expenses are below 100 dollars per purchase even in the US (it is easy to figure out why), so even a few extra cents for a cup of tea may look or feel not as appealing as paying nothing above the price tag

Well, for transactions like buying a cup of coffee you can use Lightning Network. Pretty much instant and feeless, but still with all the extra benefits bitcoin brings over fiat

Here we go again

Last time I checked 1ml.com (truth be told, I just looked into it), it didn't show any improvement at all in Lightning Network adoption. Actually, the network capacity went significantly down over the last few months. I remember its peak at over 1k bitcoins (still a minuscule amount itself), and now it's at 837 BTC. That gives us a strong push toward the conclusion that Lightning Network is as good as dead so far

Apart from that, those who send 1M dollars don't particularly care about transaction costs, while even with wire transfers there is an upper limit on fees, which rarely exceeds a few (dozen) dollars (pretty much like your few cents per Bitcoin transaction).

There are far more fees to consider than just the transfer fee. If you want to move a million dollars internationally, then you are looking at bank fees, lawyer fees, transfer fees, exchange fees, commission fees, and so forth. These can easily add up to several thousands dollars lost. Bitcoin has none of these

As long as you don't leave the crypto domain, Bitcoin is an excellent device to move around piles of wealth in a smooth and efficient manner. You can't argue with that (neither can I). But things change dramatically when you decide on cashing out, and then your expenses may skyrocket and easily add up to thousands of dollars spent on conversion and withdrawal fees. So it is a moot point given that you can't do without fiat in today's world. But if you try, the premiums you will have to pay will be extreme

And that is an underestimation

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First, to begin with, you don't pay a few cents for a transaction unless you are willing to wait a couple days till your transaction finally gets confirmed (I've done that and it doesn't work good).

That's just not true. I frequently pay transaction fees of a couple of cents and get confirmed within the hour or even quicker. And as I said before, an unconfirmed bitcoin transaction is still harder to reverse than an unconfirmed credit card transaction.

Further, most everyday expenses are below 100 dollars per purchase even in the US (it is easy to figure out why), so even a few extra cents for a cup of tea may look or feel not as appealing as paying nothing above the price tag

Well, for transactions like buying a cup of coffee you can use Lightning Network. Pretty much instant and feeless, but still with all the extra benefits bitcoin brings over fiat.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 21, 2019, 02:43:10 PM

Apart from that, those who send 1M dollars don't particularly care about transaction costs, while even with wire transfers there is an upper limit on fees, which rarely exceeds a few (dozen) dollars (pretty much like your few cents per Bitcoin transaction).

There are far more fees to consider than just the transfer fee. If you want to move a million dollars internationally, then you are looking at bank fees, lawyer fees, transfer fees, exchange fees, commission fees, and so forth. These can easily add up to several thousands dollars lost. Bitcoin has none of these.

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Quote from: deisik on August 21, 2019, 12:33:20 PM

Really, what difference does it make if it is cheaper for merchants but buyers are still not going to use it anyway and partly because it is too costly for them to transact with it

Because I reject the notion that it is "too expensive to transact with". With bitcoin, I can pay someone $100 for a couple of cents. I can pay someone $10,000 for a couple of cents. I can pay someone $1 million for a couple of cents. That is hardly "too expensive" for the buyer

The devil is in paying precious attention to detail (not my phrase but I like it)

First, to begin with, you don't pay a few cents for a transaction unless you are willing to wait a couple days till your transaction finally gets confirmed (I've done that and it doesn't work good). Further, most everyday expenses are below 100 dollars per purchase even in the US (it is easy to figure out why), so even a few extra cents for a cup of tea may look or feel not as appealing as paying nothing above the price tag

Apart from that, those who send 1M dollars don't particularly care about transaction costs, while even with wire transfers there is an upper limit on fees, which rarely exceeds a few (dozen) dollars (pretty much like your few cents per Bitcoin transaction). And if you are not money-laundering or doing some other nasty stuff which may land you in jail, fiat transactions can be more attractive, especially if your goal is to move fiat, not coins

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 21, 2019, 02:43:10 PM

That's without even touching on all the other benefits of bitcoin, such as being faster, protection from chargeback, privacy, no KYC, no third party telling you what you are and are not allowed to spend your money on, and so forth

As a buyer and consumer, I would definitely prefer chargeback rather than protection from it

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 21, 2019, 02:43:10 PM

I think if more people realized the advantages of bitcoin over the fiat system, then yes, it would help adoption

Most people are living paycheck to paycheck and often in debt at that, so those advantages (even if they are real) are of no advantage to them (pardon the pun). And that is not going to change in the foreseeable future

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Quote from: deisik on August 21, 2019, 12:33:20 PM

Really, what difference does it make if it is cheaper for merchants but buyers are still not going to use it anyway and partly because it is too costly for them to transact with it

Because I reject the notion that it is "too expensive to transact with". With bitcoin, I can pay someone $100 for a couple of cents. I can pay someone $10,000 for a couple of cents. I can pay someone $1 million for a couple of cents. That is hardly "too expensive" for the buyer. Some fiat transactions are free for the buyer, sure, but some, such as large payments which need approval from your bank or cross border payments, will slap ridiculous fees on top, far more than that which is charged with bitcoin. For the merchant, there is just no comparison. It's free to open a bitcoin wallet and accept bitcoin, but you could end up paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars in fees in the fiat system.

That's without even touching on all the other benefits of bitcoin, such as being faster, protection from chargeback, privacy, no KYC, no third party telling you what you are and are not allowed to spend your money on, and so forth.

I think if more people realized the advantages of bitcoin over the fiat system, then yes, it would help adoption.

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Quote from: imstillthebest on August 21, 2019, 08:30:29 AM

You think it cant serve the whole word because the supply is only 21m but the number of world population is over billions but but the 21m supply does not mean that will remain on those 21m people because most of them are going to sell thier btc in which other unholder of btc can also hold a btc . currently more btc are already mined out but many people have buy and sold btc

doesn't mean 1 person is 1 btc right? there is a smaller bitcoin fraction like satoshi mbtc and many other, yeah I realize that 21 million is a very small amount for all people in the world, but does that make prices higher and that's what many investors want?there are many other alternative coins after all?

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 21, 2019, 06:24:42 AM

Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 20, 2019, 09:56:19 PM

But once you convert your coins to fiat, you need to deposit the resulting fiat in your bank account. I am not sure how much it is going to cost, but I suspect that it is much more expensive than the exchange fees and on top of that this process can take a few weeks to complete.

Then that is a problem with the fiat banking system. If you are paying fees to deposit fiat in your accounts, then you'll also be paying those fees when depositing fiat customers have paid you with.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 21, 2019, 06:24:42 AM

Why should I care as long as I'm not made to pay for it?

Because your initial point was "bitcoin is too expensive". Bitcoin is actually far cheaper for merchants to use than credit cards. If more people understood this, then it could help adoption

Okay, let's rephrase myself

And put more emphasis on "Bitcoin is too expensive for the end users". Really, what difference does it make if it is cheaper for merchants but buyers are still not going to use it anyway and partly because it is too costly for them to transact with it (it is not the only reason but yet a significant one)? Further, I can't really grasp how understanding this could potentially help adoption. Will such understanding inexplicably make transactions cheaper? Care to explain?

Quote from: jostorres on August 21, 2019, 11:49:06 AM

It is not merchants who have the say in these matters. It is buyers. So if buyers want to pay with credit cards (or otherwise), merchants will readily pay these excessive fees to Visa and its likes.

It goes both ways. If credit card companies suddenly put their processing fees up to 10%, you can bet merchants would either stop using them, or make prices more expensive for using credit cards, regardless of what the customer wanted

They are not fools, and we shouldn't expect them to make rash moves that will cost them dear

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If you believe that then why do you still mention dollars

Because the majority of merchants, businesses, companies, services, etc. do not currently accept bitcoin, and so often we must (unfortunately) convert to fiat to spend our coins.

Quote from: jostorres on August 21, 2019, 11:49:06 AM

and still comparing the price of BTC based on dollar and all that?

Because the price fluctuates. There are very few places which offer goods or services at a flat bitcoin rate for an extended period of time. All services I use online update their rates in real time against the exchange rate to fiat, and the services I use in person generally either update their rates daily or generate an exact rate at the time of transaction.

These problems are both solved with widespread adoption. With widespread adoption, the need to convert back to fiat is reduced or removed as we can spend bitcoin directly with more merchants, and the price will reach a level of stability, which will reduce or remove the need to also think in terms of a variable fiat value.

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But, is Bitcoin right for us to be making use of? I mean like you all keep on saying that the world will abandon Fiat and go for cryptocurrency. If you believe that then why do you still mention dollars and still comparing the price of BTC based on dollar and all that? Roll Eyes

If we all decides to be making use of cryptocurrency (Bitcoin) it is not going to be worth the same thing as dollars, cause the worth will be more than the dollar. And I believe that there is enough Bitcoin for everyone that wishes to be investing in it or making use of it, cause people trade cryptocurrency daily and that means that as much as people continues to get involved the more the price for a Bitcoin will increase. Not everyone will be able to buy one Bitcoin , they will prefer to buy it by units. Just like some of us would do now, Bitcoin might be worth $10,000 but we can decide to buy $4,000 worth of it. It’s not a must you’re going to buy all of it.

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Quote from: Indamuck on August 21, 2019, 08:32:46 AM

-There are more crypto coins than just bitcoin
-Realize that credit cards and cash will remain the dominant currency in the world, Be realistic and realize that bitcoin won't become the global currency

Agreed with both of your points, to a certain degree. You are right when you say that there are a large number of cryptocurrencies in existence, apart from Bitcoin. As per my calculations, the total number may exceed 10,000, although a large part is currently either dead or dormant. But the point to be noted here is that Bitcoin alone account for close to 70% of all the cryptocurrency market capitalization.

You are right on the second point as well. Fiat cash will remain supreme for sometime now and I don't expect Bitcoin to replace fiat currency in any of the UN member states. Our best hope is some micronation declaring Bitcoin as the official currency and having great success with it in the future. It may encourage the other nations to allow the usage of Bitcoin.

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-There are more crypto coins than just bitcoin

-Realize that credit cards and cash will remain the dominant currency in the world, Be realistic and realize that bitcoin won't become the global currency

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You think it cant serve the whole word because the supply is only 21m but the number of world population is over billions but but the 21m supply does not mean that will remain on those 21m people because most of them are going to sell thier btc in which other unholder of btc can also hold a btc . currently more btc are already mined out but many people have buy and sold btc

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Quote from: Lawrenzoo on August 17, 2019, 04:21:33 AM

When we talk of bitcoin supply, we look at it as 21 million bitcoin, and people wonder how that can serve the whole 7 billion population, but we forgot that there are smaller units of bitcoin, we have the mbtc, we have the ubtc and we have the satoshi, and i will like to talk on the satoshi which i believe needs to be expanded to really serve the current economy.

SATOSHI,
This is the smallest units of bitcoin, and 1 bitcoin is equals to 100,000,000 satoshis, which means that the total satoshi that we have is 2100 thrillion satoshis.

The total circulating money of the world according to According to the Bank for International Settlements is 80 trillion dollars, the lowest denomination of usd is cent and 100 cent equals 1 dollar, so we have 8000 trillion cent circulating as money in the world, if satoshi is to be pegged to 1 cent and to be used as global currency, you see why it is necessary to have it expanded, because circulating money of the world will be short of about 5900 trillion satoshis.

You have made some valid explanation and down to the last unit of bitcoin which a lot of people have misinterpreted that its going to be the one that is unlimited. However, you conclusion did not take into consideration two things,

1. You are attaching a definite value to one satoshi which is not. The value of a good is not on the the volume of currency but the real worth. There was a time in Zimbabwe where a pauper is a ''billionaire'' because of the currency crises in that part of the world. So in essence, if the currency is limited to that number of Satoshis, it then means they would only be more valuable in themselves.

2. The limit again is assuming the only crypto currency we have is bitcoin forgetting that there are other reputable and longstanding coins that can be used in place of bitcoin which then ultimately reduce the pressure on crypto and its limited units.

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If BTC will have its ultimate success in the future, 1 satoshi could be valued at 1 usd, that is possible as the bigger the adoption the higher the demand.
That's why some experts said that own at least 1 BTC and you will become a millionaire in the future, and that's what I'm trying to achieve because the sats that is less valuable now could be very valuable in the future.

Also, if BTC would not be able to serve the people, there will be Bitcoin forks in the future and as long as it's supported that will solve the problem, but I don't really think it is necessary in the long.

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 20, 2019, 09:56:19 PM

But once you convert your coins to fiat, you need to deposit the resulting fiat in your bank account. I am not sure how much it is going to cost, but I suspect that it is much more expensive than the exchange fees and on top of that this process can take a few weeks to complete.

Then that is a problem with the fiat banking system. If you are paying fees to deposit fiat in your accounts, then you'll also be paying those fees when depositing fiat customers have paid you with.

Why should I care as long as I'm not made to pay for it?

Because your initial point was "bitcoin is too expensive". Bitcoin is actually far cheaper for merchants to use than credit cards. If more people understood this, then it could help adoption.

Let's hope Bitcoin will make them process these transactions faster

Yeah, it probably will. There is a new system being set up in the EU, which currently covers around 50% of fiat payment service providers, to process transactions instantly.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 20, 2019, 06:35:02 AM

It is not merchants who have the say in these matters. It is buyers. So if buyers want to pay with credit cards (or otherwise), merchants will readily pay these excessive fees to Visa and its likes.

It goes both ways. If credit card companies suddenly put their processing fees up to 10%, you can bet merchants would either stop using them, or make prices more expensive for using credit cards, regardless of what the customer wanted. I do agree that merchants are unlikely to start accepting bitcoin out of the blue, because they need to know there is a demand for it, which is why I encourage everyone to approach any small or independent retailers you frequent and talk to them about accepting bitcoin. I've had a fair amount of success doing this.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 20, 2019, 06:35:02 AM

What you say may in fact be true in respect to credit cards specifically or in some very special cases (which I doubt, by the way), but as I use regular payment cards (otherwise known as debit cards), I don't pay anything. Nada. Null. Zilch.

Credit card fees are paid by the merchant accepting the card, not by the individual paying with the card. This is not some big secret. Many smaller retailers don't accept card or have a minimum spend requirement to pay by card for this reason

Why should I care as long as I'm not made to pay for it? In the worst case scenario I can just do by paying with cash

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 20, 2019, 06:35:02 AM

And while it may in fact take a few days to settle these transactions inside the payment system, this doesn't in the least affect me as a customer as payments with these cards are instant

No, but it does affect the retailer. If they need the money quickly, then bitcoin is far faster - in the region of hours rather than several days. Much like an unconfirmed transaction, until the credit card company processes the payment, the merchant can see it but not spend it

Let's hope Bitcoin will make them process these transactions faster

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 20, 2019, 01:09:33 AM

As you might already be aware, I live in Russia. Two days ago I made an order at iHerb, an American company, paying them with my payment card (which is in Russian rubles, just in case). They received my payment instantly (probably already in dollars). But since I forgot to apply some discount code (called promo code there), I canceled my order immediately and got a refund as fast as my first payment went through.

They didn't receive your payment instantly. They received notification from your credit card company instantly. They won't receive the payment for several days. The fact that you could cancel it immediately is exactly my point; credit card transactions are just as easily, if not more easily, reversed than zero confirmation transactions. Both credit card transactions and bitcoin transactions can be broadcast instantly, but bitcoin transactions will confirm within minutes to hours, while credit card transactions will take days

That essentially fortifies my point about merchants being ultimately irrelevant

I mean, as far as means of making payments are concerned. People are often asking themselves (well, this is my assumption as I don't really know what they are in fact asking themselves) why merchants are willing to pay exorbitant fees on payments made via payment cards (credit or otherwise) and they still refuse to accept cryptocurrencies which are by far less expensive in terms of transaction fees?

Long story short, this is a false dichotomy, and your explanation makes its falseness apparent. It is not merchants who have the say in these matters. It is buyers. So if buyers want to pay with credit cards (or otherwise), merchants will readily pay these excessive fees to Visa and its likes. And if they don't want to pay with cryptocurrencies, merchants will be reluctant to accept such payments either, even if they are cheaper and faster

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 19, 2019, 10:16:58 PM

Bitcoin transaction fee may be very low. but then the merchant may need to spend additional amount to convert these coins to BTC.

Converting to fiat (which I assume is what you meant) is irrelevant. That has nothing to do with the speed and price of a bitcoin transaction. No one is forcing the merchant to convert to fiat; that's entirely their choice. Still, most exchanges charge around 0.25% fees for trading to fiat, and most payment processors around 0.5 - 1%, so still less than credit cards.

Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 19, 2019, 10:16:58 PM

On top of that, the VAT/GST calculations may get too complicated and it may take a lot of time and effort to settle everything in the end.

Taxes will be paid in fiat, and so tax calculations should be no more complicated than those for money accepted in fiat. Simply convert the BTC to the corresponding fiat value and continue as normal.

I am not sure whether it is as simple as it sounds. The 0.25% fee that you have mentioned is for trading. But once you convert your coins to fiat, you need to deposit the resulting fiat in your bank account. I am not sure how much it is going to cost, but I suspect that it is much more expensive than the exchange fees and on top of that this process can take a few weeks to complete.

I agree that no one is forcing the merchant to convert to fiat. But then, he need to take care of his expenses and for that he need fiat cash. What if the supplier doesn't accept BTC? He need to get his supplies on a regular basis, so that his shop is fully stocked. For that, the payments needs to be in fiat cash and the delay should not exceed a few days.

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Quote from: Lawrenzoo on August 17, 2019, 04:21:33 AM

When we talk of bitcoin supply, we look at it as 21 million bitcoin, and people wonder how that can serve the whole 7 billion population, but we forgot that there are smaller units of bitcoin, we have the mbtc, we have the ubtc and we have the satoshi, and i will like to talk on the satoshi which i believe needs to be expanded to really serve the current economy.

SATOSHI,
This is the smallest units of bitcoin, and 1 bitcoin is equals to 100,000,000 satoshis, which means that the total satoshi that we have is 2100 thrillion satoshis.

The total circulating money of the world according to According to the Bank for International Settlements is 80 trillion dollars, the lowest denomination of usd is cent and 100 cent equals 1 dollar, so we have 8000 trillion cent circulating as money in the world, if satoshi is to be pegged to 1 cent and to be used as global currency, you see why it is necessary to have it expanded, because circulating money of the world will be short of about 5900 trillion satoshis.

You are worrying yourself over a problem we are nowhere close to have, only a few million people are using bitcoin and while the units themselves are not a problem during a time of high activity it can be difficult to get a confirmation, that is in what the developers have been focusing with the lightning network, but your argument is no different than those that claim that the gold we have is not enough to serve the world, if we ever found ourselves with that problem there are only two solutions a satoshi will have to be more valuable than one cent or the devs could add an even smaller unit than the satoshi.

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What you say may in fact be true in respect to credit cards specifically or in some very special cases (which I doubt, by the way), but as I use regular payment cards (otherwise known as debit cards), I don't pay anything. Nada. Null. Zilch.

Credit card fees are paid by the merchant accepting the card, not by the individual paying with the card. This is not some big secret. Many smaller retailers don't accept card or have a minimum spend requirement to pay by card for this reason.

And while it may in fact take a few days to settle these transactions inside the payment system, this doesn't in the least affect me as a customer as payments with these cards are instant

No, but it does affect the retailer. If they need the money quickly, then bitcoin is far faster - in the region of hours rather than several days. Much like an unconfirmed transaction, until the credit card company processes the payment, the merchant can see it but not spend it.