WHY 21 MILLION BITCOIN CANNOT SERVE THE WHOLE WORLD - page 4.

deisik

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 19, 2019, 03:25:55 PM

Quote from: deisik on August 19, 2019, 02:49:24 PM

Bitcoin is simply not very suitable for this purpose because its transactions are too expensive and slow.

The average credit card transaction charges a fee of 3%. On a $100 bill, that's $3. You can send $100 of bitcoin for less than 3 cents, or 0.03%, 100x cheaper

I'm not sure where you got these numbers

What you say may in fact be true in respect to credit cards specifically or in some very special cases (which I doubt, by the way), but as I use regular payment cards (otherwise known as debit cards), I don't pay anything. Nada. Null. Zilch. And while it may in fact take a few days to settle these transactions inside the payment system, this doesn't in the least affect me as a customer as payments with these cards are instant

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 19, 2019, 03:25:55 PM

The average credit card transaction takes 3 business days (so up to 5 or even more actual days depending on weekends and holidays) for the money to reach the merchant. Up until then, it is essentially the same as an unconfirmed bitcoin transaction, and relatively easily reversed by calling your credit card company and claiming your card was hacked, stolen, cloned, scammed, etc

I don't really know what you refer to here

As you might already be aware, I live in Russia. Two days ago I made an order at iHerb, an American company, paying them with my payment card (which is in Russian rubles, just in case). They received my payment instantly (probably already in dollars). But since I forgot to apply some discount code (called promo code there), I canceled my order immediately and got a refund as fast as my first payment went through. Then I reordered and I didn't have to wait till my follow-up payment was accepted by iHerb. Technically, for me, all these payments and refunds went through in real time. So much for waiting 3 days (or whatever)

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 20, 2019, 12:09:33 AM

Converting to fiat (which I assume is what you meant) is irrelevant. That has nothing to do with the speed and price of a bitcoin transaction. No one is forcing the merchant to convert to fiat; that's entirely their choice

They are in fact forced as crypto is not universally accepted to make this conversion optional or unnecessary

slaman29

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I don't know much about economics but it seems to be that 1 Bitcoin is divisible into 100 million units. 80 Bitcoins is at least 1 satoshi per person if every person had bitcoin on this planet. And to my understanding, that is even more divisible by more when you use fractions of satoshi, which is already theoretically possible. So if it makes sense to me, it makes sense to normal people.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 19, 2019, 09:16:58 PM

Bitcoin transaction fee may be very low. but then the merchant may need to spend additional amount to convert these coins to BTC.

Converting to fiat (which I assume is what you meant) is irrelevant. That has nothing to do with the speed and price of a bitcoin transaction. No one is forcing the merchant to convert to fiat; that's entirely their choice. Still, most exchanges charge around 0.25% fees for trading to fiat, and most payment processors around 0.5 - 1%, so still less than credit cards.

Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 19, 2019, 09:16:58 PM

On top of that, the VAT/GST calculations may get too complicated and it may take a lot of time and effort to settle everything in the end.

Taxes will be paid in fiat, and so tax calculations should be no more complicated than those for money accepted in fiat. Simply convert the BTC to the corresponding fiat value and continue as normal.

joniboini

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Quote from: ene1980 on August 19, 2019, 10:34:18 PM

i really want to be optimistic about the price of bitcoin reaching a million dollars, but realistically it is impossible to reach those valuation. .

Did you believe Bitcoin will reach $20k in 2009? Or did you even believe that a Bitcoin could worth more than a gram of gold? I'd be really surpassed if you say yes, but now you don't believe that Bitcoin will reach that numbers.

Quote from: NavI_027 on August 19, 2019, 11:12:32 PM

4) In this world, equality is just an ideal concept. There will be always top and bottom and it all started because of greed. Many got nothing, some got ample and few got plenty. (I hope you know what I mean)

Inequality will always exist, not only because some people are greedy and don't want others to get rich, but simply because people work on different jobs. You can't pay a CEO with the same amount you pay for a bounty hunter. There is no problem with 'inequality' unless it becomes too extreme. Not everyone would get the same amount of Bitcoin, just like how signature participants get different Bitcoin because their rank is different.

NavI_027

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In all fairness, I find your title interesting to discuss with. Here are my insights why 21 million btc can't reach out every single people in this planet. These are the reasons IMO:

1) Not everyone of us like btc or crypto in general, there are exisiting people which hate it and refuse to use it (e.g. bankers)
2) Not all nations have the required technology capable of using crypto. In short, technological gap. Best scenario is the life of rural tribes all around the world.
3) Even though we assume that world's population is only to 21 million, each one of us might still don't have a chance to get ine because of losses due to forgotten private keys etc.
4) In this world, equality is just an ideal concept. There will be always top and bottom and it all started because of greed. Many got nothing, some got ample and few got plenty. (I hope you know what I mean)

ene1980

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Quote from: Lawrenzoo on August 17, 2019, 03:21:33 AM

if satoshi is to be pegged to 1 cent and to be used as global currency, you see why it is necessary to have it expanded, because circulating money of the world will be short of about 5900 trillion satoshis.

There is the biggest problem with all your calculation, you cannot peg Satoshi to 1 cent but with all the speculation that the price would go to a million dollars then you can say that 1 Satoshi is one cent and for that to happen it will take a very long time, i really want to be optimistic about the price of bitcoin reaching a million dollars, but realistically it is impossible to reach those valuation. .

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 19, 2019, 03:25:55 PM

Quote from: deisik on August 19, 2019, 02:49:24 PM

Bitcoin is simply not very suitable for this purpose because its transactions are too expensive and slow.

The average credit card transaction charges a fee of 3%. On a $100 bill, that's $3. You can send $100 of bitcoin for less than 3 cents, or 0.03%, 100x cheaper.

The average credit card transaction takes 3 business days (so up to 5 or even more actual days depending on weekends and holidays) for the money to reach the merchant. Up until then, it is essentially the same as an unconfirmed bitcoin transaction, and relatively easily reversed by calling your credit card company and claiming your card was hacked, stolen, cloned, scammed, etc. A bitcoin transaction can be irreversible within an hour.

If that still isn't good enough for you, then you can use Lightning for near fee-less and instant transfers.

Credit card fee is 3%? In my country VISA/Master charges around 1.8%, with the merchants sometimes getting discounts. For many of them, it is easier than depositing the physical cash in a bank and then doing the paperwork, which in the end may cost even more. Bitcoin transaction fee may be very low. but then the merchant may need to spend additional amount to convert these coins to BTC. On top of that, the VAT/GST calculations may get too complicated and it may take a lot of time and effort to settle everything in the end. Cost is not the only concern for the merchants. They are also concerned about the time and effort that is required.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: deisik on August 19, 2019, 02:49:24 PM

Bitcoin is simply not very suitable for this purpose because its transactions are too expensive and slow.

The average credit card transaction charges a fee of 3%. On a $100 bill, that's $3. You can send $100 of bitcoin for less than 3 cents, or 0.03%, 100x cheaper.

The average credit card transaction takes 3 business days (so up to 5 or even more actual days depending on weekends and holidays) for the money to reach the merchant. Up until then, it is essentially the same as an unconfirmed bitcoin transaction, and relatively easily reversed by calling your credit card company and claiming your card was hacked, stolen, cloned, scammed, etc. A bitcoin transaction can be irreversible within an hour.

If that still isn't good enough for you, then you can use Lightning for near fee-less and instant transfers.

deisik

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Quote from: el kaka22 on August 19, 2019, 12:22:41 PM

If we one day have something like a million dollar per bitcoin thing (I would expect not happening anytime soon anyway) we will have ethereums and litecoins and so forth that would be used for transaction as well, remember its harder to make someone start accepting bitcoin as a payment, after that its easy to add ethereum or whatever right next to it, someone who agrees to take bitcoin wouldn't mind accepting ethereum or litecoin neither. Hence I think this is a non-issue for at least another 20-30 years

We are already there

And have been there since at least 2015. Today, Bitcoin is used primarily as a very special store of value for the unbanked (or those who don't want to have anything to do with banks), while top altcoins (say, Litecoin) are used for transactions involving small amounts, i.e. anything which can be related to as daily activities (whatever those might be).

Bitcoin is simply not very suitable for this purpose because its transactions are too expensive and slow. But if you need to move real wealth around and don't care about the fees (which is typically the case in such circumstances), it is still a good choice (probably the best if the wealth in question is in the millions)

shield132

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At first bitcoin wasn't meant for so massive usage, to be used all over the world, so this coin isn't ready for a lot of reasons: 21 Million supply, what to do with those ones that are lost and are still getting lost? We can do nothing at the moment and believe me, when a lot of people start using it, we will lose far more than we already have.
Secondly - what about fees? Current fees aren't good for such usage, we need almost zero fee and that's not good news for miners.
In overall bitcoin can't change current currencies, at least at the moment this looks like that.

el kaka22

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I think altcoins play a role here that people are missing, yes bitcoin has only 21 million and maybe satoshi could be used thats correct but at the same time fore faster and cheaper transactions by the time 21 million bitcoin is not enough other coins will come into affect as well.

If we one day have something like a million dollar per bitcoin thing (I would expect not happening anytime soon anyway) we will have ethereums and litecoins and so forth that would be used for transaction as well, remember its harder to make someone start accepting bitcoin as a payment, after that its easy to add ethereum or whatever right next to it, someone who agrees to take bitcoin wouldn't mind accepting ethereum or litecoin neither. Hence I think this is a non-issue for at least another 20-30 years.

deisik

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Quote from: BitHodler on August 18, 2019, 09:57:54 AM

We will never reach a stage at which there aren't enough coins in existence. There will always be a seller willing to let go of his coin(s) if a high enough price is being paid. It's just common sense

Common sense and the law of large numbers don't live well together

More specifically, we may in fact reach such a state when the volatility will be so high across the markets that you won't be able to reliably determine the price at any given moment. This is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future anyway, but technically, that would pretty much count as "not enough coins in existence" to satiate the demand

Ironically, the demand itself may not necessarily be very high at that point. It is the supply which must be low, exceptionally low at high prices. That seems to be a theoretical possibility with assets whose total supply cannot be increased. For example, it is not possible with gold because at higher prices gold production will expand quickly

Quote from: BitHodler on August 18, 2019, 09:57:54 AM

We have seen that already happen in countries where coin scarcity has resulted in hefty premiums. South Korea's premium for Bitcoin was like $5000 over western spot prices during the previous bull run. Insane

For a currency that effectively means an ultimate failure as a means payment (i.e. as a currency, yeah). But that's totally okay for a speculative asset in the state of a bubble

lixer

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The first thing that we need to overcome first is that adoption, adoption cannot grow at once for bitcoin to serve the whole population as you speak, although you analogy is quite okay but I think that you know one of the problem we have is over printing of money which is destroying some countries as a result of corruption, now that bitcoin is limited in supply, don’t you think that it will correct some of those faults, an moreover, when we get to the bridge, we will cross over it.

There will always be a way to expand the limit of bitcoin when we get to that stage, and more so, don’t forget that we will always have other alternatives like altcoins, and fiat will also never die off the earth, bitcoin will only reduce the number of circulating currency, so there is nothing much here that I see as issue or challenge in future.

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Quote from: Lawrenzoo on August 17, 2019, 03:21:33 AM

When we talk of bitcoin supply, we look at it as 21 million bitcoin, and people wonder how that can serve the whole 7 billion population, but we forgot that there are smaller units of bitcoin, we have the mbtc, we have the ubtc and we have the satoshi, and i will like to talk on the satoshi which i believe needs to be expanded to really serve the current economy.

SATOSHI,
This is the smallest units of bitcoin, and 1 bitcoin is equals to 100,000,000 satoshis, which means that the total satoshi that we have is 2100 thrillion satoshis.

The total circulating money of the world according to According to the Bank for International Settlements is 80 trillion dollars, the lowest denomination of usd is cent and 100 cent equals 1 dollar, so we have 8000 trillion cent circulating as money in the world, if satoshi is to be pegged to 1 cent and to be used as global currency, you see why it is necessary to have it expanded, because circulating money of the world will be short of about 5900 trillion satoshis.

so you , actually , prove that 21 million bitcoin can serve the whole world?
what is the point of the question then , yes 21 million compared to trillions of dollars and other printed coloured paper we call money is a small number
the smallest denomination is satoshi that makes it 2,100 trillion units , enough to serve anything you would want to serve
well , minus the burned and destroyed coins and lost keys wallets, that some of the analysts amount to 25% of the coins already
the problem is not in the physical number of coins , but that bitcoin cannot serve as a payment gateaway at the moment
it has several bottlenecks that prevents it to serve as the money that we all know
the most important one is the transaction speed , it is crawling at several transactions per second compared to tens of thousands per second of that of VISA and Mastercard

AjithBtc

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Right now its too early to think about bitcoin serving the whole world. The growing adoption and acceptance increase the demand, but even with the limited availability it is possible with the lowest denomination. There should be no modifications made on the algorithm to increase the number above 21 million. If such a change is done it is same as devaluating bitcoin same as the fiat currencies.

Theb

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Look even central banks who has the possibility to print infinite amounts of their fiat currency isn't enough, why do you think "expanding" the units of BTC would solve your nonexistent problem? Why do banks don't print more money as they can to solve their financial problems? Because doing so will just cause inflation and further devalue their own currency, it basically won't solve anything but just dig yourself further to the ground. Just imagine Bitcoin doubling the supply we have now or even just adding half of it. It will just expand its current demand more therefore decreasing the price of Bitcoin. Let's not think about of the number of people Bitcoin can handle if it's supply expanded let the people (demand) adjust for its price increases.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 18, 2019, 04:39:57 AM

Quote from: Bardman on August 17, 2019, 04:21:38 PM

The code actually allows Bitcoin to be divisible further: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/122/will-we-ever-need-smaller-amounts-of-bitcoin-than-a-satoshi

Bitcoin is already divided in to milli-satoshis (msats), which is 0.001 of a satoshi, as the base unit on Lightning Network. For comparison. 1 milli-satoshi is 0.00001 of a US cent.

Quote from: Bardman on August 17, 2019, 04:21:38 PM

Anyhow, I personally believe Bitcoin will never be a mainstream payment system, history has certainly shown us that Bitcoin is simply not that good when it's used as daily payment and we have far better options.

That's what Lightning Network should address. Instant and almost fee-less transaction which can be used for transactions which require immediate confirmation, such as the often talked about "buying a coffee with bitcoin". You only need to broadcast to the main chain and wait for confirmations when you close a channel, or if you want the extra security when making or receiving a large payment.

I'm curious as to what "far better options" you think we have.

People have been selling the idea of 'instant transactions' for quite a long time and yet there is no cryptocurrency out there that has instant transactions, bitcoin transactions take minutes, even hours sometimes. Even if you can have instant transactions and without fees, bitcoin would still be garbage as a payment option, why in the world would anyone accept Bitcoin in their business when the price can crash 20% in one day?

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21 MILLION bitcoins that is, you are forgetting how much satoshi that would end up with, right now we do not have that much of a problem with how much bitcoin we have and how we can actually make sure everyone gets their share but in the end if bitcoin becomes so popular that 21 million bitcoin won't be enough for everyone we can literally find a way to drop prices to satoshis instead of bitcoin (getting a coffee is satoshi anyway) and that way we can easily send and receive in satoshis and talk prices in satoshis etc etc without a problem.

Real problem is think of bitcoin at 210 thousand dollars for example, even 1 satoshi will be super expensive and I don't know how we can deal with both fee's and spending bitcoin on small items like lets say a cup of coffee, which is why number is fine but price is dangerous, getting too high might create problems.

BitHodler

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We will never reach a stage at which there aren't enough coins in existence. There will always be a seller willing to let go of his coin(s) if a high enough price is being paid. It's just common sense.

We have seen that already happen in countries where coin scarcity has resulted in hefty premiums. South Korea's premium for Bitcoin was like $5000 over western spot prices during the previous bull run. Insane.

Another thing is that I doubt people will use Bitcoin globally all together. It's more of a wet Bitcoiner's dream. This is and will stay digital gold. It's impossible to compete with fiat as day to day currency.

Rustamm

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I think it is too early to say that the number of Bitcoin coins is small for everyone, given that each coin has 100 million satoshi. The price of one satoshi today is only $0.0001. I think this is a normal price for a unit of currency, which everyone can now use as money, because people can pay for goods and services using satoshi. The only thing that bothers me is the fee to the miners for the transaction, it is very high for micropayments.

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