Anything that isn't the status quo will be attacked by those who are invested (emotionally, intellectually, or financially) in that status quo.
Most people's life philosophy consists of knee-jerk opposition to any conclusion that doesn't fit the conclusions they have been taught.
The only thing one can do is use and improve the product that isn't the status quo and hope the market does not stay irrational until after they die.
Topic: Why all the bitcoin haters? (Read 4562 times)
There was a lot of positive coverage when things were taking off in late May-early June, then this Quora post got a lot of play on reddit, Hacker News, and the like. I don't agree with his harsh all-or-nothing rhetoric and labeling it a "scam", but he does make a few good points about security and the like.
People enjoy voting for politicians who will steal money from their neighbors for them.
People like seeing all the pretty prices and paychecks rise, not realizing they're getting poorer through inflation.
In short, people are stupid, lazy, thieving cannibals.
People like seeing all the pretty prices and paychecks rise, not realizing they're getting poorer through inflation.
In short, people are stupid, lazy, thieving cannibals.
People hate anything that challenges the status quo. The American Revolution was extremely unpopular... until the revolutionaries won! :-)
Mack
Mack
Like Nagie, most of reactions are:
- The early adopters will be really rich if it works, which is unfair
- I've let my computer generate coins for two days without result. It cannot work that way.
- You cannot buy anything interesting with bitcoins
- You are not sure if your bitcoin will keep its value in the future (yes, it contradicts number 1 but that's it).
- The early adopters will be really rich if it works, which is unfair
- I've let my computer generate coins for two days without result. It cannot work that way.
- You cannot buy anything interesting with bitcoins
- You are not sure if your bitcoin will keep its value in the future (yes, it contradicts number 1 but that's it).
There are two basic problems with bitcoins.
1) The bulk of the coins are in the hands of a few early adopters. This isn't a rich vs poor issue, it is a cash flow issue. If 10 people have 100,000 bitcoins each they can buy ten things. If 1 million people have 1 bitcoin each they can buy 1 million things.
The current level of difficulty has set the bar so high that amateur miners aren't getting a sufficient reward for their effort. The alternative is to spend cash for bitcoins and buy something that could have been purchased (probably cheaper) for cash. All you professional miners should think about the impact your massive mining rigs are having on the system as a whole. You might end up with all the bitcoins, but what would you do with them then?
2) Since very few people have bitcoins to spend, there isn't any market pressure on retailers to accept bitcoins. Thus, you cannot buy anything interesting with bitcoins.
I don't see anyway out of this problem.
You guys tell me how much people you know and understand how the current system works.
They barely understand how the current system works, so why would a average Joe use another system?
They will only use this new system if they are forced to do so.
They barely understand how the current system works, so why would a average Joe use another system?
They will only use this new system if they are forced to do so.
Change is scary for most people. Bitcoin is something new and different they dont understand.
Hello yous,
I live in an environment where anything related to the internet is automatically suspect, and whenever I try to introduce an idea (say, to a family member) they immediately take a standpoint of opposition. It really doesn't matter what it is. Wikipedia, for example. I only managed reluctant acceptance that it isn't a bad thing, entirely.
While my experience isn't wide, it's what I've come to feel represents an expression of what "normal" people think when they are confronted with anything that isn't part of their normal world. They view the internet with suspicion because they see bad things happen in their own world and they believe it must be much worse on the internet, given the relative anonymity afforded here (The mainstream media certainly helps reinforce that view). However I believe they have a skewed idea that normal means static.
So, this is the attitude I believe we generally face when attempting to explain Bitcoins to anyone out there, and due to its complexity and the complexity of markets it's hard to find a few choice words that will get their 'buy in' to listen and absorb more. Particularly if they already have a hectic life with family and work etc and not a lot of extra head room for radically new technical concepts.
Given all that, it's my aim to mention Bitcoins as a value-transfer mechanism, not a long term value storage mechanism or investment. For a short time span, say the amount of time you might want to hang onto cash in your wallet, or on your laundry card, or on your subway card, the value needs to be pretty stable. And I believe that's the best way to get the word out on Bitcoins, as a value transfer mechanism that can compliment our current uses of cash in day-to-day life. A debit card is tied to an identity, but Bitcoins don't have to be so rooted. I'm thinking of the future wherein one might pay for groceries or shoes with what amounts to a universal gift card, anonymous and re-loadable.
I answer the "Bitcoins have no intrinsic value" question by suggesting the person cut up their credit card and debit card and then tell me those two pieces of plastic have no value. It's a facilitator of trade, and that has value. I separate this from the concept of market value.
I am fully on board with sensible evangelizing, but to get the initial hook for a conversation about it, maybe a good strategy is to begin with short-term cash-type value transactions, and leave the investment concept for those who are curious enough to ask about it.
TL;DR: I'm a noob, so is everyone I know but they're instinctively skeptical of everything, and since Bitcoins is complex I'd rather focus on short-term cash transactions as a vehicle for initiating conversation.
Thanks fer readin'
I live in an environment where anything related to the internet is automatically suspect, and whenever I try to introduce an idea (say, to a family member) they immediately take a standpoint of opposition. It really doesn't matter what it is. Wikipedia, for example. I only managed reluctant acceptance that it isn't a bad thing, entirely.
While my experience isn't wide, it's what I've come to feel represents an expression of what "normal" people think when they are confronted with anything that isn't part of their normal world. They view the internet with suspicion because they see bad things happen in their own world and they believe it must be much worse on the internet, given the relative anonymity afforded here (The mainstream media certainly helps reinforce that view). However I believe they have a skewed idea that normal means static.
So, this is the attitude I believe we generally face when attempting to explain Bitcoins to anyone out there, and due to its complexity and the complexity of markets it's hard to find a few choice words that will get their 'buy in' to listen and absorb more. Particularly if they already have a hectic life with family and work etc and not a lot of extra head room for radically new technical concepts.
Given all that, it's my aim to mention Bitcoins as a value-transfer mechanism, not a long term value storage mechanism or investment. For a short time span, say the amount of time you might want to hang onto cash in your wallet, or on your laundry card, or on your subway card, the value needs to be pretty stable. And I believe that's the best way to get the word out on Bitcoins, as a value transfer mechanism that can compliment our current uses of cash in day-to-day life. A debit card is tied to an identity, but Bitcoins don't have to be so rooted. I'm thinking of the future wherein one might pay for groceries or shoes with what amounts to a universal gift card, anonymous and re-loadable.
I answer the "Bitcoins have no intrinsic value" question by suggesting the person cut up their credit card and debit card and then tell me those two pieces of plastic have no value. It's a facilitator of trade, and that has value. I separate this from the concept of market value.
I am fully on board with sensible evangelizing, but to get the initial hook for a conversation about it, maybe a good strategy is to begin with short-term cash-type value transactions, and leave the investment concept for those who are curious enough to ask about it.
TL;DR: I'm a noob, so is everyone I know but they're instinctively skeptical of everything, and since Bitcoins is complex I'd rather focus on short-term cash transactions as a vehicle for initiating conversation.
Thanks fer readin'
People in general spend to much of their time responding at haters and trollers..
Just ignore it.
Just ignore it.
The key issue is that the early adopters have nearly all of the cards.
They have (had?) 1/3 of the money. 2/3 are still up for grab by anyone. (counting anyone who joined before now to be an early adopter)
Probably 1/3 of the 6 million that belonged to miners initially were sold to speculators and "normal" people wanting some bitcoins.
Deflation is a reduction in the money supply. That can only happen through coin loss, or people hiding them away. What you are talking about is supply+demand forcing the price up, as in the case of any commodity being traded. There is a built in controlled inflation with Bitcoins since they are being constantly created. If that isn't enough to offset new demand for coins then the price will go up.
Depends on what definition you use. As there are multiple mechanisms in play simultaneously, I just used the definition that deflation occurs when: there's an increase in "real" purchasing power per bitcoin spent. There's probably a more accurate description/word for it, but it's beyond me right now.
Deflation is a reduction in the money supply. That can only happen through coin loss, or people hiding them away. What you are talking about is supply+demand forcing the price up, as in the case of any commodity being traded. There is a built in controlled inflation with Bitcoins since they are being constantly created. If that isn't enough to offset new demand for coins then the price will go up.
Deflation is a certainty if MORE people start using bitcoin and thus convert $ in bitcoins
Hi, I had a discussion about this a few days ago with a work colleague. I was quite positive, whereas he was quite sceptical, so here is the gist of his argument:
1) Because of deflation, the value of bitcoins will keep going up, which will compel people to hoard them and thus get richer and richer instead of trading them as a currency.
2) The early adopters will become a powerful elite who live off the "interest" (equivalent).
3) Meanwhile, everyone else will be poor and the economy will be slow due to low liquidity or some kind of deflationary spiral in the market. In other words, people would rather store the few bitcoins (or bitcents) they have due to their ever-increasing value, instead of propping up a vibrant capitalist economy.
It was a lunch break so there wasn't enough time to fully respond to his arguments, but I think maybe these things could be communicated better:
1) Future deflation is not a certainty, it's just a guesstimate of people's future behaviour. Deflationary expectations could be an issue because there's a fairly obvious positive feedback loop (hoarding reduces the number of coins in circulation, which drives up their perceived value... etc.). Nevertheless, gold is a good counter-example suggesting that there are negative feedback mechanisms also in play. For instance, fear of a bubble collapse will limit trust in a commodity-currency like Bitcoin, thus stabilizing its value.
2) How can it be worse than the developed world's present situation, where it is basically held to ransom by patronage networks of bankers, Wall St, bureaucrats, etc! They practice usury on a grand scale by manipulating fiat currencies, promoting cycles of inflation and indebtedness, followed by asset collection. The criminals probably couldn't believe their luck when the mortgage-backed securities scam was so successful, but that is a discussion for another day. Actually... reducing the elites to a group of miserly Scrooges doesn't sound so bad! Even then, the "elite" part of prediction #2 relies on the unproven assumption of sustained strong deflation.
3) It implies that people would rather starve because of the promise of future "earnings" from a gold-like currency, instead of being sensible. Hunger will make even the most foolish person realise that real earnings require work in order to live well and sustainably. I also suspect that so-called deflationary spirals have never been properly tested in the real world without meddling.
1) Because of deflation, the value of bitcoins will keep going up, which will compel people to hoard them and thus get richer and richer instead of trading them as a currency.
2) The early adopters will become a powerful elite who live off the "interest" (equivalent).
3) Meanwhile, everyone else will be poor and the economy will be slow due to low liquidity or some kind of deflationary spiral in the market. In other words, people would rather store the few bitcoins (or bitcents) they have due to their ever-increasing value, instead of propping up a vibrant capitalist economy.
It was a lunch break so there wasn't enough time to fully respond to his arguments, but I think maybe these things could be communicated better:
1) Future deflation is not a certainty, it's just a guesstimate of people's future behaviour. Deflationary expectations could be an issue because there's a fairly obvious positive feedback loop (hoarding reduces the number of coins in circulation, which drives up their perceived value... etc.). Nevertheless, gold is a good counter-example suggesting that there are negative feedback mechanisms also in play. For instance, fear of a bubble collapse will limit trust in a commodity-currency like Bitcoin, thus stabilizing its value.
2) How can it be worse than the developed world's present situation, where it is basically held to ransom by patronage networks of bankers, Wall St, bureaucrats, etc! They practice usury on a grand scale by manipulating fiat currencies, promoting cycles of inflation and indebtedness, followed by asset collection. The criminals probably couldn't believe their luck when the mortgage-backed securities scam was so successful, but that is a discussion for another day. Actually... reducing the elites to a group of miserly Scrooges doesn't sound so bad! Even then, the "elite" part of prediction #2 relies on the unproven assumption of sustained strong deflation.
3) It implies that people would rather starve because of the promise of future "earnings" from a gold-like currency, instead of being sensible. Hunger will make even the most foolish person realise that real earnings require work in order to live well and sustainably. I also suspect that so-called deflationary spirals have never been properly tested in the real world without meddling.
I'm willing to do it but:
1) I need to polish everything to make it publishable. Currently, those are only note, most of them hand written. This is a somewhat important work.
1) I need to polish everything to make it publishable. Currently, those are only note, most of them hand written. This is a somewhat important work.
Scan the notes, upload them and publish them in the forum, in an own thread.
I would definitely skim through them and get typing (if they're not utterly nonsense
).I took the time to do it: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24256
I mostly agree, its a great thing, but currently unpolished. It is complicated, and it's new.
The vast majority of people feel comfortable with the way things are, even though most don't understand economics. Hopefully when bitcoin has been around a while, that'll be the case here too. I think its safe to say that a lot of people here actually thirst for the knowledge of how the system is working, both technically and economically, its fun/interesting - but this isn't the view of everyone in the world - or even the majority.
The "you're an idiot" responses to skepticism benefit nobody. There are problems, we all know. I'm sure more will come to light, but the beauty of open source is together we can work on and solve at least most of them.
The anonymity of the network is fantastic, and as a buyer, and user of the currency, I love the feature. I dont feel like being tracked. But it requires a lot more trust in sellers who wish to maintain their own anonymity - it can be ideal for scammers. My current hesitation is giving bank details to the exchanges - hard to build trust while it is unregulated.
Anyway, been reading for a few months, just started mining, and put a little of my earnings into the GLBSE. I want this to work out as a currency whether it makes me money or not. When I set up a new bank account, I can monitor more closely and will probably put some money into the exchanges.
And yes it pisses me off that others have made so much more money, but they took so much more risk. I was hesitant to buy the mining gear 6 or so months ago, I'm kicking myself, and blaming them for my not being braver. Human nature! (now i have, and its barely profitable - hopefully can make it back soon).
Hope to be more involved in this community. Looking forward to the inevitable flames.
The vast majority of people feel comfortable with the way things are, even though most don't understand economics. Hopefully when bitcoin has been around a while, that'll be the case here too. I think its safe to say that a lot of people here actually thirst for the knowledge of how the system is working, both technically and economically, its fun/interesting - but this isn't the view of everyone in the world - or even the majority.
The "you're an idiot" responses to skepticism benefit nobody. There are problems, we all know. I'm sure more will come to light, but the beauty of open source is together we can work on and solve at least most of them.
The anonymity of the network is fantastic, and as a buyer, and user of the currency, I love the feature. I dont feel like being tracked. But it requires a lot more trust in sellers who wish to maintain their own anonymity - it can be ideal for scammers. My current hesitation is giving bank details to the exchanges - hard to build trust while it is unregulated.
Anyway, been reading for a few months, just started mining, and put a little of my earnings into the GLBSE. I want this to work out as a currency whether it makes me money or not. When I set up a new bank account, I can monitor more closely and will probably put some money into the exchanges.
And yes it pisses me off that others have made so much more money, but they took so much more risk. I was hesitant to buy the mining gear 6 or so months ago, I'm kicking myself, and blaming them for my not being braver. Human nature! (now i have, and its barely profitable - hopefully can make it back soon).
Hope to be more involved in this community. Looking forward to the inevitable flames.
The whole "the early adopters have a huge advantage thats not 'fair' " people make me sick.
Every early adopter has an advantage, going all the way back in every currency. Its the foundations on which every economic development if created.
Every early adopter has an advantage, going all the way back in every currency. Its the foundations on which every economic development if created.
It is even useful to have unfairness, IMHO:
http://thebitcoinsun.com/post/2011/06/06/Unfairness-And-A-Pizza-The-Key-Of-Bitcoin-s-Success
Its not unfair though. Thats what I'm trying to say, and the reality of it.
In fact, you could say its unfair to them to NOT have an advantage, since people jumping in right now are jumping on on the backs of all the hard work they put in to support and prop up something from literally nothing
Its an entitlement mentality, and its destroying the world with its demanding for equality and "fairness" in all things, when equality isn't about bringing the lowest parties up, but more about bringing the best and brightest down. Then everyone can be "equal" right? *gag*
Dont lie, you wish the early adopters would "share some of the wealth". Am i right "comrade"?
Bitcoin is a great concept. But in reality today it seems quite chaotic with all the scamming, hacking etc..
Reality of today is not the reality of a couple of months ago, and won't be the reality of a few months later. You can't base anything on "reality" in the sense you use. Life is normative. We are here to make things happen.The whole "the early adopters have a huge advantage thats not 'fair' " people make me sick.
Every early adopter has an advantage, going all the way back in every currency. Its the foundations on which every economic development if created.
Every early adopter has an advantage, going all the way back in every currency. Its the foundations on which every economic development if created.
It is even useful to have unfairness, IMHO:
http://thebitcoinsun.com/post/2011/06/06/Unfairness-And-A-Pizza-The-Key-Of-Bitcoin-s-Success
The whole "the early adopters have a huge advantage thats not 'fair' " people make me sick.
Every early adopter has an advantage, going all the way back in every currency. Its the foundations on which every economic development if created.
Early adopters take bigger risks than later ones do, hence the greater reward
Thats why stocks have low ipo's or "initial public offerings" (usually)
The bitcoin could have gone no where. All the work coding and everything else put towards nothing.
The early adpoters worked it up, they deserve all they got.
All this "waa waa its not FAIR!" stomping the ground like a child crap does you no good in life, or in bitcoins.
Every early adopter has an advantage, going all the way back in every currency. Its the foundations on which every economic development if created.
Early adopters take bigger risks than later ones do, hence the greater reward
Thats why stocks have low ipo's or "initial public offerings" (usually)
The bitcoin could have gone no where. All the work coding and everything else put towards nothing.
The early adpoters worked it up, they deserve all they got.
All this "waa waa its not FAIR!" stomping the ground like a child crap does you no good in life, or in bitcoins.
Jump to: