Topic: why all the hate for the welfare state? (Read 3883 times)

Ah, that explains the instant disliking I took to you.  How many alts do you have?  I'm guessing you need a new one every time people get sick of your incessant batshit mental posting and stick you on their ignore list.

*Disclaimer* This is an AnonyMint / TheFascistMind / UnunoctiumTesticles / contagion thread likely to contain unrealistic and purely hypothetical scenarios that may be closer to fiction than any semblance of reality, along with false logic and copious amounts of clutching at straws.

I know he didn't actually start the thread, but it just feels that way since his monstrous ego takes over everything.

Following the abolition of the state, money, and private property, one does not need to be “granted” access to goods in order to utilize them—one may merely proceed to do so.

Idiot without a fungible currency there is no trade and no maximum-division-of-labor, thus economic collapse same as with communism.

You are going on my ignore list.

Even the longest journeys (taken on foot) begin with a single step.

40% for all Social Security as I linked to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Social_Security_Contributions


The optimum solution is smaller community governments that do local welfare, as I explained with a photo here:

ha, that one was good. but i doubt we will see that in the short to mid term.
or rather it is a very futuristic idea.

If the state, money, and private property were abolished, the obstructions they pose to the acquisition of life-sustaining goods would be abolished as well.

@average income tax

i understand your point, i will try to look for more precise numbers.

@pension insurance.

its 20% together, so 10% the employee, 10% the employer (social tax is always half/half)
but you are correct that it is mandatory (nobody can say no to pension insurance, except you have no income of course)


@welfare state

imho it is just about the balancing.
there is only one solution for the people that can't live for themself in our society (because of physical or mental illness).
welfare or euthanasia.

if there is another solution please help me understand.

Average taxation is a meaningless concept because it includes the welfare recipients who leech on the economy. I analyzed the middleclass who produce the GDP. Germany is strangling them with high taxes that average > 50% in total.

Additionally the Euro was a subsidy to German exports at the expense of the rest of Europe, which is thus now bankrupted. But German banks are radically leveraged to the rest of Europe.

Germany (and Europe and Japan) will collapse this year. QE won't work again, because globally the marginal-utility-of-debt has gone negative. BOHICA. Enjoy.

Btw, I have one German grandparent, one UK, and one French. The 4th one is native American.


So the 20% is mandatory one way or the other? And make that 40% because apparently the employer pays a matching share (which comes out of salaries whether you like to admit it or not, because profit is a zero-sum game).

The western governments will end up confiscating (nationalizing) all the private pension funds, because the societies are bankrupt.

Westerners will lose their pensions. Massive rationing of health care.

The grand liberal, socialism experiment is massive, FUBAR Tragedy of the Commons failure. Megadeath likely coming 2019ish.

this is from 2007:

http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1768/umfrage/durchschnittlicher-einkommensteuersatz-pro-steuerpflichtigem-nach-bundeslaendern/

the average income tax was less then 20%.

what your posted from wikipedia is indeed correct, but it just explains the tax bracket of our income tax law.


@social taxation

its only 20% if you take your pension insurance into it. you are free to to care yourself about a future pension.
it is just law because we in germany dont want to care of people that dont do something for their pension before they get old and cant work.
that is why either you have to pay in a state controlled pension fund as a tax or pay into a private owned pension fund.

@vat

i explained earlier there are two tax brackets for vat, one is 7% and the other is 19%.
guess what 19% are? right, luxury articles.


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why are you mad anonymint?
82%... come on.... and that without vat...

and where did i tell you that you have a derangend mind?

and btw. im not socialist, im pretty liberal.

I don't need to verify BitcoinFreak12's source because I know for a fact that actual taxation rates for the middle class in Western nations exceed 50%, especially in Europe.


Looks like the middle class pay 42% just in income taxes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Income_tax_rate_in_2010

Social security adds another 20% plus the employer pays 20% (which is the same as the worker is paying because it is taken from cost of employees and thus salaries are lower by 20%):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Social_Security_Contributions

So that is 82% tax.

Then you can add the 19% VAT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Tax_rate

STOP YOUR BULLSHIT. SOCIALIST PIGS!

Btw, Germany will totally collapse into a heaping pile of rubble in 2015 - 2016. I am going to be laughing at you socialist pigs.

You are the one with the deranged mind.

Forced compliance, of any sort, with any hierarchical social group constitutes tyranny.

this is his source :

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate


he just took the the maximum possible income tax rate.



@anonymint

i though you atleast would check the source...

also i agree with your other statement that there of course exist more then the income tax.
but the most important are vat and healthcare/social taxation.

vat in germany is either 7 or 19% depending on what you buy.
in germany there exist social taxation which includes everything like healthcare and so on which equals to around 15%, but you only pay 50% of it. (one part the employee, the other part the employer)

its still alot from the 47,5%....


/edit

that i said you should seek help was not meant as a offense.
from what you said i dont think you are healthy...

Socialist pigs can't read.


Socialist pigs love Josef Mengele.


P.S. I was AnonyMint, I am not a newbie.

The “welfare” of “the welfare state” conceals statism's detriments without genuinely mitigating them (i.e., abolishing the state, money, and private property).

the tax list contaigon quoted was bullshit, average taxation of 47,5% in germany?  

by chance im living in germany for a long long time now and the max income tax is 45% tax if you earn 250,000+ € per year my friend.
its definitely not the average taxation of a worker in germany.

the average income tax a german has to pay is around 20%

/edit

its really weird that i see nowhere else so much newbie accounts posting... not even the altcoin section has so much newbies keep spreading lies



you should seek help in form of a medical and psychological treatment instead of blaming welfare on bitcointalk.org
if you even live in a land that provides welfare, this is the perfect moment to take use of it.

Hey idiot, you still didn't get the point.

Most reasonable people are not against paying say 19% taxes to help the most indigent. But everyone is against paying 100%. The problem is a commons can never stay at 19%, because of the game theory of the Tragedy of the Commons. This is fundamental and very easy for someone with 120+ IQ to understand. You are lacking in IQ.

The antithesis of capitalism is communism. In communism, everyone owns 100%. This is a Tragedy of the Commons and thus communism is an abject failure because everyone wants to leech off the commons.

Collectivism is a commons. It isn't capitalism (which is not a commons) which is causing the leeching.

For example, the banksters keep buying off the politicians and regulators so they can go gamble with fractional reserves and derivatives, then they force the government to bail them out, putting the $trillion bailouts cost on the commons. It is the existence of a commons which provides the capital resource to fund this corruption. If there was no commons taxation, then the banksters would have no resource to expropriate. The Tragedy of the Commons is the problem, dimwit. There is no way to have a commons for welfare without also making the commons available to the banksters. You say regulate the banksters? But they can buy off the regulators, because the commons provides this huge resource to fund their bribes. You see everyone is leeching off the commons. Where there is honey (the commons), the flies will congregate.

Don't make me teach this to you again. Idiot!

You carry on with your brain dead thinking. It will serve you very well in the global collapse which will take all of your wealth starting in 2016. Then you can learn what a Tragedy of the Commons really is. I guess all the way to your grave in the coming Nazi concentration camps you will still be thinking capitalism murdered you.

http://www.stonemarmot.com/rantrave/rantscap.html


http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/03/11/marxism-is-a-dead-idea-but-capitalism-freedom-has-never-truly-existed/

On the other hand, often the smart people - those smart enough to get rich - recognize that it is through giving as well as taking that one truly becomes wealthy. And this not only in personal philosophy, but also in the riches of the world.

Those who enslave you make you their enemy. Why? Because everybody wants freedom. Those who maintain your freedom, and help it to be maintained for you when you are weak, are the ones you would be more likely to revere.

Smart wealthy people maintain fairness and a giving attitude in all their dealings. Super-smart wealthy do this while keeping idiots from wrecking their lives through foolishness... and they do it without the foolish even realizing that it is being done to them. The few "ultra-smart" people that there are, are the ones who have become wealthy, and then given it all away. They don't even have the pressures that wealth so often brings.

Now, take a look at the people in authority. Compare them with the previous paragraph.

I, on the other hand, would simply show you how to get rid of the welfare state out of your life. You do it by filling yourself up on the info here http://1215.org/, and by learning all the practical application information from Karl Lentz that you can - http://www.myprivateaudio.com/Karl-Lentz.html.

Contagion just can't face that fact that corruption can and does exist in capitalism.  Good thing he has no say on how the world works.  It would be a pretty bleak place if it only rewarded people who want to take, take, take their whole lives without giving anything back because they think taxation is somehow tantamount to theft.  Not much point in arguing further, since it's obvious he's not going to budge from his view.

I've never begrudged paying tax and I never will.  If you want to live in a world without public services and welfare, kindly go live in a cave on some remote island somewhere.  You can take as much as you want, but you'll find that won't be much when there's no one else to take from.  Greed is such a primitive emotion.  I'd have thought the world would be a little more enlightened by this point.

DooMAD doesn't have the intellectual capacity to understand the point I made. Collectivized systems have always been and will always be corrupt. 6000 years of history says that is the normal and only mode — there are no exceptions. There is no possible way to do collectivized welfare that isn't tied into the overall corruption of collectivism. And this corruption of collectivism has no corrective feedback loop. The corruption only ends when the cancer has destroyed the host. Rinse. Reset. Repeat.


You are also not a student of history and reality. When the deflationary collapse ensues 2016 - 2024, the State murders the citizens. There is always a cost to be paid for that misallocation of resources. No one walks away unscathed, including yourself.

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All this whining about the poor makes me want to puke, given the poor today have higher standard of living than Kings of yore.

12 yr. old girl allowed to die by mother's mercy

This story makes me feel so lucky to have the life I have in spite of my battle with neuropathy, HPV, blinded in one eye, financial troubles, career troubles, etc..

All the probably near constant pain this little girl had to endure with no hope, yet there is one pic of her smile.

http://www.kidspot.com.au/a-little-girl-allowed-to-die/

Maybe that is a good reflection for all of us on how blessed we are.