Topic: Why all this hype with Hardware Wallets when Bitcoin Core is all you need? - page 2. (Read 712 times)

apparently there's methods to bypassing the ram and storing the decryption keys in cpu so what you're saying isn't true but anyhow. maybe only hardcore linux geeks can do that.


now you're talking! 

You are comparing apples and oranges here, and Bitcoin Core is not viable option for most newbies.
Most of them can't wait for hours and days for blockchain download and sync and they don't care at all about running full node.
If you recommend someone new to use Bitcoin Core he would say that it's slow and maybe he would never again use BTC.

I don't care about marketing gimmicks of some hardware wallets, but they can offer nice balance of security and usability.
Good hardware wallets can be open source, air-gapped, offline devices that can be used for storing seed words and signing transactions.
Bitcoin Core need internet connection to work properly.

I don't like coldcard wallet after they changed their license and stop being open source, so I don't recommend them, but you are nor mixing Electrum SPV wallet and Bitcoin Core.
I honestly don't understand the point you want to make with your comment here.
Nobody is forcing you to use hardware wallets and they are not needed, if you have offline computer device with Electrum wallet.

For seed extraction I thought the old versions were vulnerable to Oled side channel  (ledger was vulnerable but not critical) not allowing seed extraction.

The charlatan has a great blog and he listed all hacks, if you want to check, here is the link:
https://thecharlatan.ch/List-Of-Hardware-Wallet-Hacks/

And backing up a file is less prone to errors and cheaper than backing up words on paper or steel washers?

Do you read my replies in full? I said when your HDD fails, you'll need to replace it. You can't just run off of your DVD backup. USB drive could work, but the performance will be bad; they don't hold indefinitely and 1 USB drive is at least 5 bucks while you can make a paper backup for a few cents.

Again: do you even read? Both have no secure element. You're literally talking without having a clue.



That completley goes out of the point, the bug was in ledger software making to loose funds because of change, so again, I do not imagine this kind of "bugs" happening in the most reviewed client such as Bitcoin Core
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Again, when using a PC, it's not only running Core; also lots of other software that can have bugs, which gives an attacker access to Bitcoin Core, e.g. by exploiting something in the Linux kernel. Hardware wallets don't run an OS, so the attack surface is much smaller.

I don't have time right now to watch videos, and this 'hacker movie' style make it appear pretty cringe and untrustworthy, but in the first few seconds they say that it's very difficult and requires lots of very sophisticated equipment and experience. That's what I said (if you bothered to read, which apparently you don't).
If you also take a look at how laptop HDDs are read out, you will quickly notice it's much easier and quicker, and even a cold boot attack will be easier to do than this.

If someone doesn't use the passphrase, it's their fault, not the hardware wallet's fault. Only because on some models it's tedious, doesn't mean it must be so on all of them. For instance on my Foundation Passport it's very easy and quick to do. We're talking about the general concept of hardware wallets here; and the fact is that they're just more secure. Sure, something could be more tedious or whatnot; but it's not inherent to the concept. You could make a huge hardware wallet with a full-sized keyboard but running Passport code and with a Passport PCB in it.

Because you're talking about arguments against hardware wallets and bringing up that people may enter the seed into a phishing webpage. They can do that with literally any wallet.

Do you trust to be able to keep multiple USB and DVD drives safe from damage (water, fire, rubble) as well as physical deterioration over time? Data rot.

That's why I recommended MacBooks Soldered RAM and SSD. I believe on the latest ones with M1... chip, the storage and RAM is even within the SoC actually.

There's no point in encrypting RAM: to use it, the same RAM needs to have the decryption key.

I just thought of an even easier protection against this: get a laptop with RAM soldered to the mainboard. No way someone's going to freeze it and desolder at the same time.

hopefully someone would have a security protocol such that it was not possible for someone else to gain access to their laptop when it was turned on. a security protocol is more than just saying "i'm encrypting my laptop hard drive. done.". it could encompass other things too. freezing RAM i never hear of that but i think you can just encrypt the ram.


we're talking about an individual with a sizeable amount of bitcoin right?

Adding quotation marks to "change address" yields related results, specially these:

• https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/ho5spn/update_missing_funds_after_sending_btc_funds_sent/ (solved)
• https://github.com/LedgerHQ/ledger-live-mobile/issues/993

However, it's more of a client issue (Ledger Live) than the hardware wallet itself, fund is safe all along.

Source? I'm genuinely curious and I'm finding nothing on that matter.



Got any more details? Google yields nothing and it must have been a different version than 0.13 since no such version exists in Ledger's release history.

Sure seed plate is not needed, but that is the recommendations I use to see. Why not when using a latptop? Because with bitcoin core you just backup a wallet.dat


Backups can be made in USB Flash Drive, DVD, SD Cards etc


The way to exploit the trezor one is the same for the last version, both can not be fixed.


That completley goes out of the point, the bug was in ledger software making to loose funds because of change, so again, I do not imagine this kind of "bugs" happening in the most reviewed client such as Bitcoin Core

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3f1zNpzINY
And check their blog for more info how technique was improved recently.


So now we assume that if HW is seized can be compromised, so let's add a passphrase, if you add a secure  one entering will be so tedious in some models or nearly impossible to be easy of use, and in other HW you will have to type with the PC which is not a safe practice.



Falling for scams is not HW fault, what I just said is that someone educated is less likely to fall for it, I do not see how ridiculous is this statement.


You are right, maybe I was wrong assuming that average Joe would be interested in learning more or could have concerns about delegating security.

If computer is compromised yes, it will not be safe, however I was referring in to use bitcoin core offline.


That was a good one  

I read about an arrest in the Netherlands not so long ago, where the SWAT team entered through the windows to prevent the guy from turning off his computer.
Okay, here's another solution: add a dead man's switch to your chair. If you get up, it disconnects the power to your PC. That's going to be seriously annoying to use, but for the truely paranoid that's a small price to pay.

As far as I know, it's relatively commonly done in high-security level pentests and in critical practical attacks (mostly physical attacks against companies) as well. The technique has definitely attracted lots of research and it was proven to work quite well by lots of different folks.

Has that ever happened in a real life theft? That's some James Bond level burglary!
If you really worry about this:
Then glue the RAM into your computer. Good luck to any thief.

That requires the laptop to be shut down when getting into attacker's hands. If it's on, you can just freeze the RAM and get the keys out.
I also don't know that everyone running core has full disk encryption turned on.

Since a laptop is a general-purpose device, it inherently has a larger attack surface. For example, older laptops and certain Linux distros (or both) may not support secure boot, allowing for other attack vectors that you don't have when a HW wallet boots up.
I'd argue it will be harder to crack a HDD password (offline attacks on an ISO of it etc.) than a hardware wallet's password (no way to extract the memory contents + limited amounts of tries before erasing itself.

That's what I recommend. Core with electrs & connect a hardware wallet-compatible SPV wallet to it.


Shame!


This is a kind of diversification that definitely makes sense. People also talk about getting hardware wallets with secure chips from different manufacturers to minimize risk of backdoors. This again goes towards 'paranoia-level security' as we often do around here, but I support the idea.

I consider ordering anything dedicated to crypto bad OPSEC.

Most people i know don't bother buy seed plate if they decide to use hardware wallet.


There's additional cost if you store copy wallet.dat on different storage.


The scenario mention access to physical device, so it's vulnerable against malware which target BIOS or boot partition (which usually separated and not encrypted).

You don't see the average PC user do this, right? The average user who gets confused when the internet icon has moved sure can't handle this. And even if they can do it, it's a lot of work for making a transaction. That's okay if you do it once a year, it's not okay for daily use.

I do that too, but only for (mobile) wallets which I'll use for a very small amount. For convenience, I'm willing to risk it.
People have also lost funds stored in a hardware wallet after they entered their seed words in a phishing site. Lack of common sense is a great way to lose your money

In reality, most Bitcoin Core users run it on an online system, and most of them probably use Windows. That makes losing funds much more likely than it is when using a hardware wallet, even though human stupidity will always find a way.

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My own preference: I use different wallets for different purposes. I know the shortcomings (and I'm aware I might not even know everything), but it's enough to reduce the risk to an acceptable level without being inconvenient.

* The average Joe will not save 400+GB on his HDD. He doesn't understand pruning, he doesn't want to wait days for the initial sync and doesn't understand why should he download such amount of data.
* The average Joe probably has Windows or mobile phone he wants to use Bitcoin with.
* The average Joe is not tech savvy and he would make mistakes if we would advise him use cold storage. I've seen case when one was claiming he has cold storage which he connects to the internet when he send transactions.
  (Yes, he got his money stolen by some malware/exploit).

Bitcoin core is great, but it's not for everybody.
Bitcoin core, if used as hot wallet, is as vulnerable as any hot wallet.

So what other option we have for newbies? At least from my side it's not marketing; it's genuine attempt to help users keep their coins safe.



Then move it. See bottom-left link.