Why are people scared of taxes? - page 35.

asdf

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Quote from: wabber on October 06, 2012, 08:25:20 AM

I don't know why ppl are always scared of paying taxes.
taxes are actually a great thing but only if everyone pays them and if they are spend on useful things only. Just look out your window and you will see lots of things paid with your taxes you use everyday.

Must admit I only read some of the replies, but there's some interesting perspectives in there...

I don't think people are scared of paying taxes, but rather: they just don't like paying. Most of the time it sounds like some combination of
1) Selfishness or greed.
2) A naive belief that "the free market" can solve everything. (Given a chaotic power vacuum as the alternative, surely governments are already the result of market forces keeping things efficient?)
3) Examples of bad spending by governments lead them to believe that the overall value gained by paying tax is a bad deal.

1) wow! so not wanting to be robbed makes you greedy? So if I pulled out a gun and demanded you pay me $1000 so I could give it to some homeless man, you would be greedy if you didn't willfully hand over the cash?

2) Naive? like the belief that giving a monopoly on violence to an unaccountable institution will solve all our social problems? Clearly I need some education here.

3) Name one thing the government does that isn't bad. The competitive marketplace is always more efficient than some violence funded bureaucracy. If you think taxes are a good deal, pay them, but allow me the freedom to not and forgo the "services" provided.

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The good thing about government is that it has the potential, at least in theory, to operate morally, i.e.: in the best interests of its constituents. Since they typically control a large part of a country's wealth, and have a large amount of power over the people, why would they have a profit motive to start with? Using Occam's Razor, many government actions can be boiled down to being driven purely by human morals. Things like education, healthcare, looking after the disabled, allowing the needy to survive on subsidised rations, being an equal opportunity employer. Also: competing against corporations that do have a profit motive (and no morals), general law and order, leadership to inspire and placate the masses, and being a giant "angel investor" for projects that are too risky or expensive for the private sector to attempt. Somebody has to pay for it.

what. the. fuck.

Yes, the politicians love us and have our best interests at heart. They don't want wealth and power, they just want to help the poor. Also, everyone in society agrees on the right thing to do and will all vote in unison for the right one-size-fits-all policies. Naive much?

"Theft is moral, as long as you spend it on the needy" - ends justify the means. Nice.

Limited liability corporations are an artifact of the state. go figure.

sturle

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Quote from: asdf on October 22, 2012, 04:54:20 PM

Services funded by theft are never going to be efficient,

True, but I was defending taxes, not theft.

asdf

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Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 04:16:51 AM

Quote from: asdf on October 21, 2012, 03:17:20 PM

Also, consider that the price of everything you pay for is already inflated by taxes that the business pays: staff, fuel, corporate tax, etc. The government is probably eating %90 of societies production. Not to mention the stagnation of economic growth that results. IMAGINE the prosperity if this burden was lifted! How many problems that the government "solves" would be irrelevant in such a wealthy environment. It would be like The Jetsons!

Much of those taxes are spent on solving real problems to make commerce more efficient. E.g. taxes on fuel which are spent on building roads and taking care of them. How much production and trade would be left if they just closed the roads and cut the taxes on petrol? Taxes on fuel is an effective and just way of making the users of the roads pay for them.

Taxes on air traffic are mostly spent on the terrorist organization TSA. This *is* wasteful and very harmful, and a good example of not to do it. Governments exists to make production and trade efficient, and countries that do this most effectively will prosper.

This is obviously from the USA. An area where the the USA do extremely badly is healthcare. In most of Europe people enjoy free healthcare paid by the government, run by the government. In the USA healthcare is not free. It is a complicated system of insurances, government programs and private hospitals. Yet the U.S. government pays more per capita for healthcare than any other country in the world! This shows that taxes can be the most effective way of paying and getting done. Get rid of red tape and intermediates who take their cut, and it will turn out much cheaper for everyone. Reduced taxes _and_ no costly health insurance.

And don't forget, even if 52% is eaten by taxes, 100% of the money will come out again. The government isn't collecting the money in a large treasure chest and keeping it. This was done by some kings in Europe back in the middle ages, to save up for the next war, but the practice got abolished. Nowadays wars are paid for using credit cards. To build a road they need building materials, machines and workers, who will again spend their money and contribute to economic growth.

Services funded by theft are never going to be efficient, because there is no accountability to the market (competition), there is no profit/loss mechanism to determine if the market is being served efficiently. Yes, the government, in theory, steals our money for services we need (and allot we don't), but do a horrible job of providing that service. If it's such a good deal, then why is it mandatory? I want free choice in what transportation infrastructure I patronise. Healthcare, roads, whatever.

I'll keep my %90 taxes and take my changes with the competitive market place, if you don't mind.

As for your last point, sure, the money comes out again, but first it's paid to bureaucrats to shuffle papers and hassle productive businesses, paid to others for not working, paid to keep pot smokers in cages, paid to the military to blow up sand, build roads to nowhere, etc, etc, etc. This is misdirected energy which could have been used productively and we are all poorer for it.

vampire

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Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 01:57:10 PM

Quote from: vampire on October 22, 2012, 10:09:21 AM

Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 07:28:40 AM

Wow! I live in a country with a public health system, and I have no problems getting a doctor when I need it. If I don't need it, I may have to either wait or pay a private practicing doctor. Renewing my pilot medical certificate is an example of a service not covered by the public health system. I've never heard of people waiting months for something like that.

Your country produces what? 50% of the exports is just oil.

Income from oil and gas exports goes straight to a fund for future pensions, and only 4% of it is spent every year by average. Depends if the economy needs it or not. Next year it will be 3%, I think. The economy can't take more due to almost 0 unemployment rate and more than 4% increase in wages every year for the last ten years at least. More money into this economy will only induce inflation while companies bid higher and higher wages for skilled workers.

Other than that Norway exports finished goods of various kinds (e.g. weapons and furniture), fish, metals, electricity, machinery, and chemical products. And services, mainly shipping.

Quote

And you keep refusing to join the EU for many years.

EU membership is not compulsory.

An oil rich country with a population of few millions is hardly a good example, Norway is number one country in HDI index. Mostly because of the oil and all the industry around it. The second country is Australia, and guess what they're a major exporter of commodities...

fivemileshigh

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Quote from: wabber on October 06, 2012, 08:25:20 AM

I don't know why ppl are always scared of paying taxes.

I'd say ppl are scared that if they don't pay the taxes they will get killed. It seems like a perfectly reasonable fear.

sturle

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Quote from: vampire on October 22, 2012, 10:09:21 AM

Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 07:28:40 AM

Wow! I live in a country with a public health system, and I have no problems getting a doctor when I need it. If I don't need it, I may have to either wait or pay a private practicing doctor. Renewing my pilot medical certificate is an example of a service not covered by the public health system. I've never heard of people waiting months for something like that.

Your country produces what? 50% of the exports is just oil.

Income from oil and gas exports goes straight to a fund for future pensions, and only 4% of it is spent every year by average. Depends if the economy needs it or not. Next year it will be 3%, I think. The economy can't take more due to almost 0 unemployment rate and more than 4% increase in wages every year for the last ten years at least. More money into this economy will only induce inflation while companies bid higher and higher wages for skilled workers.

Other than that Norway exports finished goods of various kinds (e.g. weapons and furniture), fish, metals, electricity, machinery, and chemical products. And services, mainly shipping.

Quote

And you keep refusing to join the EU for many years.

EU membership is not compulsory.

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“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.” —Winston Churchill

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vampire

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Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 07:28:40 AM

Wow! I live in a country with a public health system, and I have no problems getting a doctor when I need it. If I don't need it, I may have to either wait or pay a private practicing doctor. Renewing my pilot medical certificate is an example of a service not covered by the public health system. I've never heard of people waiting months for something like that.

Your country produces what? 50% of the exports is just oil. And you keep refusing to join the EU for many years.

vampire

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Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 07:28:40 AM

Because the fuel tax isn't enough. Bridges and highways are very expensive.

How do you know that they're expensive? May because the system is so not efficient that they have to charge so much.

In Europe, the price of gas is 2.5x higher than in USA, the drive from Barcelona to Monaco costs just 40EUR in tolls. I could drive from Miami to New York and still be under $40 in tolls.

Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 07:28:40 AM

A good example of what happens when the tax money are spent unwisely, and for most of them corruption and tax evasion is a major part of the problem.

Because governments spend unwisely, so why fund them in the first place.

Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 07:28:40 AM

Wow! I live in a country with a public health system, and I have no problems getting a doctor when I need it. If I don't need it, I may have to either wait or pay a private practicing doctor. Renewing my pilot medical certificate is an example of a service not covered by the public health system. I've never heard of people waiting months for something like that.

Because you never needed a specialist, Canada isn't the only country. UK and France have exactly the same issue. Here is a real example, a friend of mine had to fly to US to have an orthopedic surgery. Why? Because it was a 3 months wait in France.

My gf's mom is still waiting to see a specialist in Canada, a four months wait. She hates the system and wants the US system instead.

Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 07:28:40 AM

The monkeys employed at TSA get money to spend on bananas, and lice picking. Companies get money for making devices to produce porn to entertain the monkeys at "work". The money still flows back to the economy, even if the activity itself hinders efficient travel and economic growth. Yes, 100%.

Except the money that never end up back, they get stolen.

myrkul

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Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 08:09:59 AM

Quote from: myrkul on October 22, 2012, 07:48:56 AM

Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 07:28:40 AM

The monkeys employed at TSA get money to spend on bananas, and lice picking. Companies get money for making devices to produce porn to entertain the monkeys at "work". The money still flows back to the economy, even if the activity itself hinders efficient travel and economic growth. Yes, 100%.

Yes, all the money does go back into the economy. but it goes back, by definition, in ways the market would not have done, left alone. For instance, warehouses full of scanners that never got installed.

The scanners do a much better job in the warehouses than they would do at airports. By keeping them out of the way of travellers and paying for storage, it stimulates the economy rather than hindering it's development. Of course there are better ways to spend the money, but buying the scanners and keeping them in warehouses is not half as bad as installing them at airports.

"Yes, I shot you in the foot, but think how much better off you are than if I shot you in the head."

Maybe, don't shoot him, at all?

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Quote from: nobbynobbynoob on October 16, 2012, 01:18:09 PM

Quote from: Pteppic on October 16, 2012, 11:01:08 AM

So whether the government is robbing you depends on whether they have a legal claim on the money they are taking. Simply taking it by force is not enough.

I don't expect you to agree with me now, but is it any clearer where I am coming from?

From a personal perspective, the more of that expropriated property that is misappropriated by government for all kinds of corrupt and inappropriate purposes, the closer I am drawn to pure-anarchist thinking. Years ago, I would never have imagined considering anarchy potentially a good thing.

If I could somehow allocate my taxes to certain areas and exclude others (army, corn and other farming subsidies) I would feel better about paying them.

sturle

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Quote from: myrkul on October 22, 2012, 07:48:56 AM

Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 07:28:40 AM

The monkeys employed at TSA get money to spend on bananas, and lice picking. Companies get money for making devices to produce porn to entertain the monkeys at "work". The money still flows back to the economy, even if the activity itself hinders efficient travel and economic growth. Yes, 100%.

Yes, all the money does go back into the economy. but it goes back, by definition, in ways the market would not have done, left alone. For instance, warehouses full of scanners that never got installed.

The scanners do a much better job in the warehouses than they would do at airports. By keeping them out of the way of travellers and paying for storage, it stimulates the economy rather than hindering it's development. Of course there are better ways to spend the money, but buying the scanners and keeping them in warehouses is not half as bad as installing them at airports.

myrkul

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Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 07:28:40 AM

Quote

100%? Wow. You don't make a lot of sense. Read your own comment about TSA. Governments are wasteful, all of them. Some are less, some are more.

The monkeys employed at TSA get money to spend on bananas, and lice picking. Companies get money for making devices to produce porn to entertain the monkeys at "work". The money still flows back to the economy, even if the activity itself hinders efficient travel and economic growth. Yes, 100%.

Yes, all the money does go back into the economy. but it goes back, by definition, in ways the market would not have done, left alone. For instance, warehouses full of scanners that never got installed.

sturle

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Quote from: vampire on October 22, 2012, 05:48:53 AM

Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 04:16:51 AM

Much of those taxes are spent on solving real problems to make commerce more efficient. E.g. taxes on fuel which are spent on building roads and taking care of them. How much production and trade would be left if they just closed the roads and cut the taxes on petrol? Taxes on fuel is an effective and just way of making the users of the roads pay for them.

So why do I pay all other taxes, tolls for the bridges and highways?

Because the fuel tax isn't enough. Bridges and highways are very expensive.

Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 04:16:51 AM

Taxes on air traffic are mostly spent on the terrorist organization TSA. This *is* wasteful and very harmful, and a good example of not to do it. Governments exists to make production and trade efficient, and countries that do this most effectively will prosper.

There are a lot of other wasteful things countries do, take a look at the southern Europe.

A good example of what happens when the tax money are spent unwisely, and for most of them corruption and tax evasion is a major part of the problem.

Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 04:16:51 AM

This is obviously from the USA. An area where the the USA do extremely badly is healthcare. In most of Europe people enjoy free healthcare paid by the government, run by the government. In the USA healthcare is not free. It is a complicated system of insurances, government programs and private hospitals. Yet the U.S. government pays more per capita for healthcare than any other country in the world! This shows that taxes can be the most effective way of paying and getting done. Get rid of red tape and intermediates who take their cut, and it will turn out much cheaper for everyone. Reduced taxes _and_ no costly health insurance.

The usual debate, while I am not a fan of US system, the free systems have problems too. USA vs Canada: in US I can get a doctor next day, in Canada I have to wait months.

Wow! I live in a country with a public health system, and I have no problems getting a doctor when I need it. If I don't need it, I may have to either wait or pay a private practicing doctor. Renewing my pilot medical certificate is an example of a service not covered by the public health system. I've never heard of people waiting months for something like that.

Quote from: sturle on October 22, 2012, 04:16:51 AM

And don't forget, even if 52% is eaten by taxes, 100% of the money will come out again. The government isn't collecting the money in a large treasure chest and keeping it. This was done by some kings in Europe back in the middle ages, to save up for the next war, but the practice got abolished. Nowadays wars are paid for using credit cards. To build a road they need building materials, machines and workers, who will again spend their money and contribute to economic growth.

100%? Wow. You don't make a lot of sense. Read your own comment about TSA. Governments are wasteful, all of them. Some are less, some are more.

The monkeys employed at TSA get money to spend on bananas, and lice picking. Companies get money for making devices to produce porn to entertain the monkeys at "work". The money still flows back to the economy, even if the activity itself hinders efficient travel and economic growth. Yes, 100%.

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