Why big whales avoid bitcoin | Bitcointalksearch.org

Odalv

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Quote from: piramida on September 22, 2014, 04:50:32 PM

Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on September 22, 2014, 04:05:39 PM

Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 03:17:10 PM

I do not think, it is best solutions and I'm sure somebody will bring better (there exists solution for everything).

No, no. Thats an absolutely incredible idea. Pure genius. Its unbelievable nobody thought of that before.

Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 03:17:10 PM

Example:
1. Everybody sees his transactions are not processed or a lot of double spending.
2. New thread will start @ bitcointalk :-) (why my transaction are not accepted ... reason will be found.)
3. Pool's operators will say "we do not do malicious things if you believe us then accept block with this signature".
4. Some anonym operator/miner will do the same. This is my public-key. (you do not have to know his identity)
5. some group of honest miner will formed.
6. You can see who broadcast bad blocks or do not provide signatures.
7. New client is released ... you can configure what signatures you will accept.
8. you can choose new group of miners ... or use old one, but that is malfunctioning.

... majority will be formed :-)

You should immidiatly crosspost your solution in the development section so that the devs can admire your intellectual prowess.

That in fact was implemented already and is called Ripple

Because that's basically replacing the PoW with a trust network.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm talking about. (I'm not native speaker)
Edit:
It is Proof of Hashing Power in case malicious entity has 99%. :-) (I'm a little drunk)

vuduchyld

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Quote from: nelruk on September 22, 2014, 02:13:07 PM

Remember when Warren Buffett said Bitcoin is not safe and is pure gambling and shit? Well, after seeing the methods he is using in Berkshire Inc. I realized that he won't invest in cryptocurrencies at all because he doesn't understand the product (the coin), the market (the exchanges) and the actions made in these 5 years.

That's the way, also he saved its company from disaster in 2000's bubble dot-com. Journalists asked Buffett the secret of surviving and asked: "I don't invest where I don't know how it works".

It's a valid way of investing, that's for sure. Anything else is just speculating. Buffet missed the huge run up in the NASDAQ during the tech bubble, and he mostly missed the crash, too. His record, over time, more than speaks for itself. And he also has some fiduciary responsibility because he is investing other peoples' money.

Personally, I wouldn't put any more into crypto right now than I could comfortably afford to lose. Opportunity for big returns is certainly there, but it is still a reasonably immature technology for reasons listed in this thread and others.

piramida

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Borsche

Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on September 22, 2014, 04:05:39 PM

Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 03:17:10 PM

I do not think, it is best solutions and I'm sure somebody will bring better (there exists solution for everything).

No, no. Thats an absolutely incredible idea. Pure genius. Its unbelievable nobody thought of that before.

Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 03:17:10 PM

Example:
1. Everybody sees his transactions are not processed or a lot of double spending.
2. New thread will start @ bitcointalk :-) (why my transaction are not accepted ... reason will be found.)
3. Pool's operators will say "we do not do malicious things if you believe us then accept block with this signature".
4. Some anonym operator/miner will do the same. This is my public-key. (you do not have to know his identity)
5. some group of honest miner will formed.
6. You can see who broadcast bad blocks or do not provide signatures.
7. New client is released ... you can configure what signatures you will accept.
8. you can choose new group of miners ... or use old one, but that is malfunctioning.

... majority will be formed :-)

You should immidiatly crosspost your solution in the development section so that the devs can admire your intellectual prowess.

That in fact was implemented already and is called Ripple

Because that's basically replacing the PoW with a trust network.

Odalv

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Quote from: masterluc on September 22, 2014, 04:31:52 PM

Because its penny market

Finally I can agree with you on something :-)

yokosan

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Avoiders gonna avoid

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

I know some "whales". They don't avoid anything that can turn a buck.

Odalv

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Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on September 22, 2014, 04:27:47 PM

Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 04:18:12 PM

Explain your solution how to solve problem "Chinese government will invest billions into miners(HW) and will build power plant and then use this power to double spend or disallow normal transactions"

Why should i?
You said there was a solution, not me. By definition 50%+ is the mayority. Its a core principle of bitcoin.

There is solution for everything. No, even 99+% of hash power does not mean you can do everything. In reality you can do nothing.

masterluc

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Because its penny market

Tzupy

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Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 04:18:12 PM

snip

Explain your solution how to solve problem "Chinese government will invest billions into miners(HW) and will build power plant and then use this power to double spend or disallow normal transactions"

I didn't want to get into this dispute, but... why the hell would the Chinese gov invest billions? Those billions will be spent on weapons and luxury houses for the ruling communist party.
The PBoC has already reduced bitcoin to a marginal role in China, if they want they can ban it once and for all, no need to spend millions, let alone billions.

An amorous cow-herder

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Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 04:18:12 PM

Explain your solution how to solve problem "Chinese government will invest billions into miners(HW) and will build power plant and then use this power to double spend or disallow normal transactions"

Why should i?
You said there was a solution, not me. By definition 50%+ is the mayority. Its a core principle of bitcoin.

Odalv

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Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on September 22, 2014, 04:05:39 PM

Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 03:17:10 PM

I do not think, it is best solutions and I'm sure somebody will bring better (there exists solution for everything).

No, no. Thats an absolutely incredible idea. Pure genius. Its unbelievable nobody thought of that before.

Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 03:17:10 PM

Example:
1. Everybody sees his transactions are not processed or a lot of double spending.
2. New thread will start @ bitcointalk :-) (why my transaction are not accepted ... reason will be found.)
3. Pool's operators will say "we do not do malicious things if you believe us then accept block with this signature".
4. Some anonym operator/miner will do the same. This is my public-key. (you do not have to know his identity)
5. some group of honest miner will formed.
6. You can see who broadcast bad blocks or do not provide signatures.
7. New client is released ... you can configure what signatures you will accept.
8. you can choose new group of miners ... or use old one, but that is malfunctioning.

... majority will be formed :-)

You should immidiatly crosspost your solution in the development section so that the devs can admire your intellectual prowess.

Explain your solution how to solve problem "Chinese government will invest billions into miners(HW) and will build power plant and then use this power to double spend or disallow normal transactions"

Edit:
Maybe you can ban chinese government attacking bitcoin :-) ... if they do not know it is IMPOSSIBLE.

An amorous cow-herder

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Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 03:17:10 PM

I do not think, it is best solutions and I'm sure somebody will bring better (there exists solution for everything).

No, no. Thats an absolutely incredible idea. Pure genius. Its unbelievable nobody thought of that before.

Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 03:17:10 PM

Example:
1. Everybody sees his transactions are not processed or a lot of double spending.
2. New thread will start @ bitcointalk :-) (why my transaction are not accepted ... reason will be found.)
3. Pool's operators will say "we do not do malicious things if you believe us then accept block with this signature".
4. Some anonym operator/miner will do the same. This is my public-key. (you do not have to know his identity)
5. some group of honest miner will formed.
6. You can see who broadcast bad blocks or do not provide signatures.
7. New client is released ... you can configure what signatures you will accept.
8. you can choose new group of miners ... or use old one, but that is malfunctioning.

... majority will be formed :-)

You should immidiatly crosspost your solution in the development section so that the devs can admire your intellectual prowess.

Odalv

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Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on September 22, 2014, 02:47:05 PM

Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 02:39:56 PM

Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on September 22, 2014, 02:26:45 PM

Be carefull what you wish for. Accept only the blocks with a valid signature? And who is in charge of giving out those signatures?
The Bitcoin foundation? Verisign? Or maybe, you know, just to prevent fraught for your own safety, the loving goverment or the federal reserve?

Your client(SW) will be verifying. ... I'm talking about really malicious entity .. Chinese government will invest billions into miners(HW) and will build power plant and then use this power to double spend or disallow normal transactions.

Ok. How? Based on what?
E.g. a browser typically has a list of certificates. Basicly the public keys, not really different from the bitcoin addresses (thats basicly also just the public key).
And well, someone has to compile that list.
So, even if i repeat myself, who? "The Bitcoin foundation? Verisign? Or maybe, you know, just to prevent fraught for your own safety, the loving goverment or the federal reserve?".
I mean, if you really have a good sultion i´m pretty sure the whole internet would want to know. There have been enough issues with the current CA-system in the recent years and its time someone came up with a good solution.

I do not think, it is best solutions and I'm sure somebody will bring better (there exists solution for everything).

Example:
1. Everybody sees his transactions are not processed or a lot of double spending.
2. New thread will start @ bitcointalk :-) (why my transaction are not accepted ... reason will be found.)
3. Pool's operators will say "we do not do malicious things if you believe us then accept block with this signature".
4. Some anonym operator/miner will do the same. This is my public-key. (you do not have to know his identity)
5. some group of honest miner will formed.
6. You can see who broadcast bad blocks or do not provide signatures.
7. New client is released ... you can configure what signatures you will accept.
8. you can choose new group of miners ... or use old one, but that is malfunctioning.

... majority will be formed :-)

An amorous cow-herder

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Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 02:39:56 PM

Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on September 22, 2014, 02:26:45 PM

Be carefull what you wish for. Accept only the blocks with a valid signature? And who is in charge of giving out those signatures?
The Bitcoin foundation? Verisign? Or maybe, you know, just to prevent fraught for your own safety, the loving goverment or the federal reserve?

Your client(SW) will be verifying. ... I'm talking about really malicious entity .. Chinese government will invest billions into miners(HW) and will build power plant and then use this power to double spend or disallow normal transactions.

Ok. How? Based on what?
E.g. a browser typically has a list of certificates. Basicly the public keys, not really different from the bitcoin addresses (thats basicly also just the public key).
And well, someone has to compile that list.
So, even if i repeat myself, who? "The Bitcoin foundation? Verisign? Or maybe, you know, just to prevent fraught for your own safety, the loving goverment or the federal reserve?".
I mean, if you really have a good sultion i´m pretty sure the whole internet would want to know. There have been enough issues with the current CA-system in the recent years and its time someone came up with a good solution.

Odalv

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Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on September 22, 2014, 02:26:45 PM

Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 02:12:48 PM

Maybe if there is some malicious entity with 50+% of power then honest pools/miners can add some signature at the end of mined block ... and we can ignore bad one.

Be carefull what you wish for. Accept only the blocks with a valid signature? And who is in charge of giving out those signatures?
The Bitcoin foundation? Verisign? Or maybe, you know, just to prevent fraught for your own safety, the loving goverment or the federal reserve?

Your client(SW) will be verifying. ... I'm talking about really malicious entity .. Chinese government will invest billions into miners(HW) and will build power plant and then use this power to double spend or disallow normal transactions.

An amorous cow-herder

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Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 02:12:48 PM

I think, this civil war will not last long. :-) We already saw hard fork of blockchain.

Several actually. And those have been accepted generally for obvious reasons.
It would really depend on what fork the large "users", that is exchanges, payment processers, online wallets etc.. would prefer.
Also, its not like there are "the" developers anymore, there are enough clients to choose from by now.
Its not like some malicous entity could force you to "upgrade" to the "new and improved" version even if the subverted "the devs".

Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 02:12:48 PM

Maybe if there is some malicious entity with 50+% of power then honest pools/miners can add some signature at the end of mined block ... and we can ignore bad one.

Be carefull what you wish for. Accept only the blocks with a valid signature? And who is in charge of giving out those signatures?
The Bitcoin foundation? Verisign? Or maybe, you know, just to prevent fraught for your own safety, the loving goverment or the federal reserve?

nelruk

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Bitcoin is revolution

Remember when Warren Buffett said Bitcoin is not safe and is pure gambling and shit? Well, after seeing the methods he is using in Berkshire Inc. I realized that he won't invest in cryptocurrencies at all because he doesn't understand the product (the coin), the market (the exchanges) and the actions made in these 5 years.

That's the way, also he saved its company from disaster in 2000's bubble dot-com. Journalists asked Buffett the secret of surviving and asked: "I don't invest where I don't know how it works".

Odalv

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Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on September 22, 2014, 02:01:16 PM

Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 01:53:38 PM

Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on September 22, 2014, 01:43:54 PM

Quote from: Kupsi on September 22, 2014, 08:50:07 AM

If 50%+ of the miners demand higher block reward, they can change the protocol and mine on their own fork. The rest of the network will continue to use Bitcoin and the remaining miners will se their profit increase.

Or those 50%+ just refuse to add transactions to the block chain and will refuse blocks that contain transactions. That strike will continue until the demand is met. And since transaction fees are negligible amount they dont even loose any rewards worth mentioning.
Yes, thats the way it works. The miners are basicly the share holders with the voting rights, not the owners of bitcoins.

And when this happens then developers(holder of coins) change hash-alg and all their investment will evaporate.

And then every user has to decide which fork of the software they want to use. Yeah, blood on the streets, the Bitcoin civil war, begun it has Wink

I think, this civil war will not last long. :-) We already saw hard fork of blockchain.
Maybe if there is some malicious entity with 50+% of power then honest pools/miners can add some signature at the end of mined block ... and we can ignore bad one.

An amorous cow-herder

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Quote from: Odalv on September 22, 2014, 01:53:38 PM

Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on September 22, 2014, 01:43:54 PM

Quote from: Kupsi on September 22, 2014, 08:50:07 AM

If 50%+ of the miners demand higher block reward, they can change the protocol and mine on their own fork. The rest of the network will continue to use Bitcoin and the remaining miners will se their profit increase.

Or those 50%+ just refuse to add transactions to the block chain and will refuse blocks that contain transactions. That strike will continue until the demand is met. And since transaction fees are negligible amount they dont even loose any rewards worth mentioning.
Yes, thats the way it works. The miners are basicly the share holders with the voting rights, not the owners of bitcoins.

And when this happens then developers(holder of coins) change hash-alg and all their investment will evaporate.

And then every user has to decide which fork of the software they want to use. Yeah, blood on the streets, the Bitcoin civil war, begun it has Wink

Odalv

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Quote from: An amorous cow-herder on September 22, 2014, 01:43:54 PM

Quote from: Kupsi on September 22, 2014, 08:50:07 AM

If 50%+ of the miners demand higher block reward, they can change the protocol and mine on their own fork. The rest of the network will continue to use Bitcoin and the remaining miners will se their profit increase.

Or those 50%+ just refuse to add transactions to the block chain and will refuse blocks that contain transactions. That strike will continue until the demand is met. And since transaction fees are negligible amount they dont even loose any rewards worth mentioning.
Yes, thats the way it works. The miners are basicly the share holders with the voting rights, not the owners of bitcoins.

And when this happens then developers(holder of coins) change hash-alg and all their investment will evaporate.

Topic: Why big whales avoid bitcoin (Read 4753 times)