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Topic: Why Bitcoin is ultimately doomed to fail (not today or tomorrow) - page 20. (Read 40867 times)

legendary
Activity: 3514
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But moreover, the problem with a gold-backed dollar is the dollar part, not the gold part. More specifically, the fractional-reserve central banking system, and especially the Federal Reserve and its mismanagement of that system. And in terms of the period of US history preceding World War II, don't forget the policies of FDR, which "prolonged and deepened" the Great Depression. (https://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=258)

I can give you a bunch of other problems, but here are relevant only those pertaining to deflationary nature of bitcoin and possible economic outcomes and consequences thereby...

Well, I guess in order for me to understand you I first need to understand what you mean by "deflationary nature of bitcoin". Something about going up in value?

Yes, getting more purchasing power per unit (i.e. appreciation of a money unit, which you should have learned by now) due to the discrepancy of money supply (ultimately the same or even diminishing number of coins) and the expansion of economy and growth of population, provided all other things being equal...
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
But moreover, the problem with a gold-backed dollar is the dollar part, not the gold part. More specifically, the fractional-reserve central banking system, and especially the Federal Reserve and its mismanagement of that system. And in terms of the period of US history preceding World War II, don't forget the policies of FDR, which "prolonged and deepened" the Great Depression. (https://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=258)

I can give you a bunch of other problems, but here are relevant only those pertaining to deflationary nature of bitcoin and possible economic outcomes and consequences thereby...
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
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No one is arguing deflationary nature of bitcoin here,  since it is exactly the cause of those pre-fiat era crises (i.e. deflationary nature of a gold backed dollar)

Well, the amount of BTC in the world will continue to expand probably for at least another century. So I'd say it's incorrect to simply say that bitcoin is deflationary.

The origins of terms inflationary and deflationary are quite different. Deflationary in respect to currency means that it is appreciating in value (i.e. gathering purchasing power), since the word deflation (unlike inflation for which at least two different meanings coexist) means first and before all decline in prices...
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
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Desik,
I only read the first 3 pages of this thread so forgive me if im repeating something somebody else already said.
Bitcoin is deflationary not inflationary. It can be denominated into tiny units called satoshis. Google it.
It is similar to gold in that it is hard to produce and is(soon to be) universally accepted store of value.  This is where the similarities end. Your historical arguments about various crises are invalid as bitcoin is all about bypassing the global financial system that has been responsible for (more or less) EVERY financial crisis in the 100-120 years. Dont forget that thre Rothschild family dictates the price of gold. Im not sure whether they also control bitcoin.

Deflationary nature of a currency is a big no-no for a modern expanding economy. Bitcoin can't be bypassing the global financial system if it should become a major currency. And you have to clearly distinguish between the economical crises of the later 19th century - first half of the the 20th century and all the subsequent crises...

No one is arguing deflationary nature of bitcoin here,  since it is exactly the cause of those pre-fiat era crises (i.e. deflationary nature of a gold backed dollar)
newbie
Activity: 32
Merit: 0
Desik,
I only read the first 3 pages of this thread so forgive me if im repeating something somebody else already said.
Bitcoin is deflationary not inflationary. It can be denominated into tiny units called satoshis. Google it.
It is similar to gold in that it is hard to produce and is(soon to be) universally accepted store of value.  This is where the similarities end. Your historical arguments about various crises are invalid as bitcoin is all about bypassing the global financial system that has been responsible for (more or less) EVERY financial crisis in the 100-120 years. Dont forget that thre Rothschild family dictates the price of gold. Im not sure whether they also control bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521

The other big problem with Bitcoin is that it isn't legal tender, and thus it is taxed on changes in its value unlike legal tender. Thus Bitcoin can NEVER be a non-anonymous currency.

So Bitcoin has very powerful arguments against it. The OP is naive.

In Germany, neither Gold nor Gold 2.0 is taxed (VAT).

http://www.welt.de/finanzen/article120823372/Zahlungen-mit-Bitcoins-sind-umsatzsteuerfrei.html
http://www.zerohedge.com/node/477785

The first link is news to me! Thanks!

No VAT on Bitcoin spends in Germany. Fabulous!
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Desik:  Your premise is wrong, 'coins from the US mint' are legal tender YES because of whats stamped on them, but the METAL IS NOT legal tender.  The only thing that is legal tender is the DOLLAR and it is irrelevant as to What material the mint puts that stamp onto, they could stamp a lead disk with a million dollar mark and that would be a million dollars and you could pay a million dollar tax bill with it.  The printing presses put lots of zero's on pieces of paper no (other then Rand Paul) thinks that paper is legal tender, it's only the stamp that has legal status.

What you can NOT do is give the IRS a lump of unstamped gold as payment in taxes, you can only give them something that bears the stamp of the mint and they will demand X amount of dollar stamps regardless of what they are on.  Sure if you wanted to give them valuable metal with stamps on it then they will accept them so long as you have X total stamps, the value of the metal will be ignored because your debt is in stamps not metal.

It is not my premise, it is your premise that you out of a clear sky attributed to me. Where did you get this idea really? I'm curious since I never said anything of the kind which could in the slightest degree assume that gold bullion as such would be legal tender... I don't know what made you come to such a conclusion. Please show me that piece of text...

Besides that, I specifically pointed out that even "foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts"
sr. member
Activity: 826
Merit: 250
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
Desik:  Your premise is wrong, 'coins from the US mint' are legal tender YES because of whats stamped on them, but the METAL IS NOT legal tender.  The only thing that is legal tender is the DOLLAR and it is irrelevant as to What material the mint puts that stamp onto, they could stamp a lead disk with a million dollar mark and that would be a million dollars and you could pay a million dollar tax bill with it.  The printing presses put lots of zero's on pieces of paper no (other then Rand Paul) thinks that paper is legal tender, it's only the stamp that has legal status.

What you can NOT do is give the IRS a lump of unstamped gold as payment in taxes, you can only give them something that bears the stamp of the mint and they will demand X amount of dollar stamps regardless of what they are on.  Sure if you wanted to give them valuable metal with stamps on it then they will accept them so long as you have X total stamps, the value of the metal will be ignored because your debt is in stamps not metal.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
You may think as you please. I think I made my point clear enough for everyone to make their own conclusions. If no one is willing to pay taxes with $50 face value of a $1000+ gold coin, it doesn't in the least prove that this cannot be done legally. The question was about gold coins being legal tender...

If you disagree with that you can petition here

You fail Logic 101.

By your logic, then Bitcoin would be legal tender even though we lose money paying taxes on Bitcoin that we don't pay on legal tender. Because you argue that losing value does not impact on whether something is actually legal tender.

As long as Bitcoin is not officially declared a legal tender, it is not legal tender. As simple as that. I don't really know what else you are going to add to this obvious fact...

The commodity portion of the gold coins value is not legal tender and has not so been declared.

Sheesh. Are we slow today.

If someone buys or sells gold coins above their face value, they become just a special type of commodity. If that was your point, then sorry my point was something different...
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
You may think as you please. I think I made my point clear enough for everyone to make their own conclusions. If no one is willing to pay taxes with $50 face value of a $1000+ gold coin, it doesn't in the least prove that this cannot be done legally. The question was about gold coins being legal tender...

If you disagree with that you can petition here

You fail Logic 101.

By your logic, then Bitcoin would be legal tender even though we lose money paying taxes on Bitcoin that we don't pay on legal tender. Because you argue that losing value does not impact on whether something is actually legal tender.

As long as Bitcoin is not officially declared a legal tender, it is not legal tender. As simple as that. I don't really know what else you are going to add to this obvious fact...

The commodity portion of the gold coins value is not legal tender and has not so been declared.

Sheesh. Are we slow today.

By the way, early adopters who invest time and cash into BTC won't let it be doomed so easily.

Your faith and their net worth is not a guarantee of anything.

This thread and others are analyzing threats and what can and can't be done.

It is not so easy as saying "won't let it". It depends whether we have economic options or not. Then it depends on whether anyone is motivated and clever enough to make the necessary changes happen.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
By the way, early adopters who invest time and cash into BTC won't let it be doomed so easily.

In this thread I'm primarily concerned with economic reasons as to why bitcoin will not get into mainstream and will not be able to replace fiat currencies, i.e. government prohibition as well as non-economic reasons aside, if that was your point...

Before all, economics is concerned with rational behavior of people and their choice
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
By the way, early adopters who invest time and cash into BTC won't let it be doomed so easily.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
I now know your IQ is less than 120.

And you now know my IQ is much higher than yours.

I don't care...
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
You may think as you please. I think I made my point clear enough for everyone to make their own conclusions. If no one is willing to pay taxes with $50 face value of a $1000+ gold coin, it doesn't in the least prove that this cannot be done legally. The question was about gold coins being legal tender...

If you disagree with that you can petition here

You fail Logic 101.

By your logic, then Bitcoin would be legal tender even though we lose money paying taxes on Bitcoin that we don't pay on legal tender. Because you argue that losing value does not impact on whether something is actually legal tender.

As long as Bitcoin is not officially declared a legal tender, it is not legal tender. As simple as that. I don't really know what else you are going to add to this obvious fact...
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
To prove that US gold coins are legal tender on par with paper dollars. The question was about gold coins being legal tender alongside with the national currency...

The definition of legal tender in the USA:

Quote
United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts

And thus you've failed to prove it.

Gold is taxed on its commodity value and no one would pay taxes with $50 face value of a $1000+ gold coin.

Sorry that is nonsense.

You may think as you please. I think I made my point clear enough for everyone to make their own conclusions. If no one is willing to pay taxes with $50 face value of a $1000+ gold coin, it doesn't in the least prove that this cannot be done legally. The question was about gold coins being legal tender...

If you disagree with that you can petition here

You fail Logic 101.

By your logic, then Bitcoin would be legal tender even though we lose money paying taxes on Bitcoin that we don't pay on legal tender. Because you argue that losing value does not impact on whether something is actually legal tender.

I now know your IQ is less than 120.

And you now know my IQ is much higher than yours.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
To prove that US gold coins are legal tender on par with paper dollars. The question was about gold coins being legal tender alongside with the national currency...

The definition of legal tender in the USA:

Quote
United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts

And thus you've failed to prove it.

Gold is taxed on its commodity value and no one would pay taxes with $50 face value of a $1000+ gold coin.

Sorry that is nonsense.

You may think as you please. I think I made my point clear enough for everyone to make their own conclusions. If no one is willing to pay taxes with $50 face value of a $1000+ gold coin, it doesn't in the least prove that this cannot be done legally. The question was about gold coins being legal tender...

If you disagree with that you can petition here
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Why would you pay taxes with the face value of a gold coin instead of selling the gold coin for commodity value which is 2000% higher, subsequently paying taxes with the fiat?

Doesn't make any sense. What is the point you are trying to make with the absurdity?

To prove that US gold coins are legal tender on par with paper dollars. The question was about gold coins being legal tender alongside with the national currency...

The definition of legal tender in the USA:

Quote
United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts

And thus you've failed to prove it.

Gold is taxed on its commodity value and no one would pay taxes with $50 face value of a $1000+ gold coin.

Sorry that is nonsense.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Why would you pay taxes with the face value of a gold coin instead of selling the gold coin for commodity value which is 2000% higher, subsequently paying taxes with the fiat?

Doesn't make any sense. What is the point you are trying to make with the absurdity?

To prove that US gold coins are legal tender on par with paper dollars. The question was about gold coins being legal tender alongside with the national currency...

The definition of legal tender in the USA:

Quote
United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Why would you pay taxes with the face value of a gold coin instead of selling the gold coin for commodity value which is 2000% higher, subsequently paying taxes with the fiat?

Doesn't make any sense. What is the point you are trying to make with the absurdity?
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
If you pay taxes with gold coins at their face value instead of paper dollars (i.e. taxes total being equal coins face value total), you effectively end up paying more than you would pay if you previously sold your coins at their market price and paid the original tax plus the tax due to the commodity value of your coins.

And who would be stupid enough to do that?

People are stupid, but that not that stupid. Most of them can count.

This doesn't render payment of taxes with gold coins at their face value either impossible or eligible for taxing the commodity value of them (which was your point). You can't pay an income tax on an income that you didn't get (that was my point)...

Actually your entire thesis is incorrect and you missed the point of the links I provided in a prior post.

If someone pays you face value for your gold coins, you and they will both be taxed as if you gave them incremental commodity value as a gift. So they will pay income taxes on that portion.

My links showed someone tried to pay payroll using face value of coins and it was ruled he under-reported payroll.

I didn't miss the point of the links you provided. They are just not relevant to the issue of paying taxes with gold coins

I wasn't talking about someone paying somebody gold coins as wages or whatever (which I mentioned specifically), I was talking about paying taxes (not wages) with gold coins at their face value (total taxes = total face value of coins) and nothing beyond that. I hope I made it clear at least now. Why you raised the point which is not relevant to the issue what I had been talking about (i.e. paying taxes with gold coins, not wages) is beyond my understanding...
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