Why Bitcoin so popular in Discussions about government taking over the economy? - page 5.

Rarity

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Quote from: Rarity on August 07, 2012, 12:34:37 AM

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So, what happens when I mine transaction fees from blacklisted addresses along with transaction fees from whitelisted addresses?

We are only dealing with a subset of the Bitcoin economy here and whitelisted coins and wallets. Mining is entirely meaningless to this scenario. There is no reason for you to do it.

I'm not sure how mining can be meaningless, mining is Bitcoin.

While you are only dealing with a subset of the economy, I'm processing transactions for the entire network. The reason I do it is the block reward. I'm not going to limit my block reward to whitelisted address transaction fees only.

So, either the government controls mining, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, in the process of seeking a block reward I will be processing transactions for whitelisted addresses and blacklisted addresses, and will be adding those fees to my block reward.

So stop mining if you don't like that you aren't rewarded for it. The government itself can pick up the slack for missing private miners without anyone needing to "control" the process. This is most likely the endgame Satoshi envisioned for Bitcoin in the first place. The rewards of mining will be used by the government in case they need to add new whitelisted coins to the economy, for instance to distribute new wealth to the less fortunate.

myrkul

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Quote from: Rarity on August 07, 2012, 01:00:10 AM

Quote from: myrkul on August 07, 2012, 12:46:12 AM

Quote from: Rarity on August 07, 2012, 12:34:37 AM

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The account that bought the car isn't "mine" it's nobody's, a vacant shell account. An address, nothing more.

Then it won't be whitelisted in the first place.

...And?

And you can't buy cars with non whitelisted addresses.

Read the rest of the response.

Rarity

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Quote from: myrkul on August 07, 2012, 12:46:12 AM

Quote from: Rarity on August 07, 2012, 12:34:37 AM

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The account that bought the car isn't "mine" it's nobody's, a vacant shell account. An address, nothing more.

Then it won't be whitelisted in the first place.

...And?

And you can't buy cars with non whitelisted addresses. You have very little understanding of financial crime and the Bitcoin protocol and it is becoming extremely tiring discussing them with you.

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Quote from: Rarity on August 07, 2012, 12:34:37 AM

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The account that bought the car isn't "mine" it's nobody's, a vacant shell account. An address, nothing more.

Then it won't be whitelisted in the first place.

...And?

You do realize that the bitcoin protocol makes new addresses at every transaction, right? And change spent from those transactions, in a later transaction, comes from those new addresses, right? If every non-whitelisted address were suspect, everyone would be guilty.

Rarity

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The account that bought the car isn't "mine" it's nobody's, a vacant shell account. An address, nothing more.

Then it won't be whitelisted in the first place.

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I have no need to explain what someone else does after they buy my cars.

You have to explain what happened when there is no record you sold it and a criminal now has it, yes.

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So, what happens when I mine transaction fees from blacklisted addresses along with transaction fees from whitelisted addresses?

We are only dealing with a subset of the Bitcoin economy here and whitelisted coins and wallets. Mining is entirely meaningless to this scenario. There is no reason for you to do it.

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Insert Quote
In Ireland what they have is the Criminal Assets Bureau, where if they start chasing you, require you to prove you got the funds legitimatelythat was used to buy your property (i.e. your house car etc.).

If you can't provide legit means of income that could cover those assets then they take them off you.

I believe it's something along the same lines in the U.S. so it becomes a case of prove that you're good or you lose everything (although its the IRS in the states).

Yeah, it's not like proposing money laundering and other white collar crime should be illegal is some new crazy idea I came up with. The only change here is that using Bitcoin as the currency with proper regulation makes enforcing such laws vastly easier.

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Once bought a car from a mate for $7000 and when it came to register it that figure magically changed to $500 so the transfer tax was only paid on the smaller amount Cheesy

...and under our regulated Bitcoin market the true price would be there for the world to see and you would not be able to get away with it.

Bitcoin Oz

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Wat

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 11:54:15 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 11:40:35 PM

If you are attempting to launder black market coins you are wasting your time because they will never be allowed back into the system regardless of how much you transfer them.

So the government controls all Bitcoin mining then?

There is zero need to.

So, what happens when I mine transaction fees from blacklisted addresses along with transaction fees from whitelisted addresses?

Nefario

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In Ireland what they have is the Criminal Assets Bureau, where if they start chasing you, require you to prove you got the funds legitimatelythat was used to buy your property (i.e. your house car etc.).

If you can't provide legit means of income that could cover those assets then they take them off you.

I believe it's something along the same lines in the U.S. so it becomes a case of prove that you're good or you lose everything (although its the IRS in the states).

Bitcoin Oz

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Wat

Once bought a car from a mate for $7000 and when it came to register it that figure magically changed to $500 so the transfer tax was only paid on the smaller amount Cheesy

myrkul

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Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 11:40:35 PM

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You're not thinking deviously enough. What if I had an account specifically for buying cars? I could sell myself a car, but that car actually gets sold to the drug dealer.

Then you would have to explain why you bought so many cars and yet don't have them any more and how a criminal ending up in possession of one.

The account that bought the car isn't "mine" it's nobody's, a vacant shell account. An address, nothing more.

I have no need to explain what someone else does after they buy my cars.

Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 11:54:15 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 11:40:35 PM

If you are attempting to launder black market coins you are wasting your time because they will never be allowed back into the system regardless of how much you transfer them.

So the government controls all Bitcoin mining then?

There is zero need to.

I would be very interested in seeing how you propose to stop miners from including transactions from "black market" addresses to "white market" ones.

Rarity

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Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 11:40:35 PM

If you are attempting to launder black market coins you are wasting your time because they will never be allowed back into the system regardless of how much you transfer them.

So the government controls all Bitcoin mining then?

There is zero need to.

Rarity

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Activity: 182

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Quote

You're not thinking deviously enough. What if I had an account specifically for buying cars? I could sell myself a car, but that car actually gets sold to the drug dealer.

Then you would have to explain why you bought so many cars and yet don't have them any more and how a criminal ending up in possession of one.

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The money that the drug dealer gives me gets shuffled and mixed, possibly ending up in that shell account 150 or so transactions later.

If you are attempting to launder black market coins you are wasting your time because they will never be allowed back into the system regardless of how much you transfer them. If you are using white market coins you all you are doing is making a public record of your attempt to hide money for a criminal, great plan.

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5 car-sized transactions, and a non-entity to track down looking for whoever sold that car to the drug dealer. And this is just my 5-minute analysis of the issue. You can be certain that people who actually avoid government intervention for a living will be many times more devious than this.

Your 5 minute analysis is deeply flawed. You are still thinking in terms of an economy where laundering money is actually possible. I am correct on this matter and you should actually consider it in depth before continuing to post.

myrkul

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Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 10:49:00 PM

Quote from: myrkul on August 06, 2012, 10:47:25 PM

Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 10:27:22 PM

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Prove that there is no legitimate payment for it. The blockchain contains no information about the nature of the transaction.

Incredibly fucking easy. The dealership sold 5 cars that day, we know this because when you sell a car you have to transfer the title. Are there 5 payments for them?

There almost certainly would be. Just not necessarily from the people who bought the cars.

I don't think the $20 oil change is going to fool anyone.

You're not thinking deviously enough. What if I had an account specifically for buying cars? I could sell myself a car, but that car actually gets sold to the drug dealer. The money that the drug dealer gives me gets shuffled and mixed, possibly ending up in that shell account 150 or so transactions later.

5 car-sized transactions, and a non-entity to track down looking for whoever sold that car to the drug dealer. And this is just my 5-minute analysis of the issue. You can be certain that people who actually avoid government intervention for a living will be many times more devious than this.

bb113

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The funny thing is that rarity is the type of person who would get quickly fired from a government job for infringing his/her superior's sphere of plausible deniability.

Rarity

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Quote from: myrkul on August 06, 2012, 10:47:25 PM

Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 10:27:22 PM

Quote

Prove that there is no legitimate payment for it. The blockchain contains no information about the nature of the transaction.

Incredibly fucking easy. The dealership sold 5 cars that day, we know this because when you sell a car you have to transfer the title. Are there 5 payments for them?

There almost certainly would be. Just not necessarily from the people who bought the cars.

I don't think the $20 oil change is going to fool anyone.

myrkul

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Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 10:27:22 PM

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Prove that there is no legitimate payment for it. The blockchain contains no information about the nature of the transaction.

Incredibly fucking easy. The dealership sold 5 cars that day, we know this because when you sell a car you have to transfer the title. Are there 5 payments for them?

There almost certainly would be. Just not necessarily from the people who bought the cars.

bb113

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Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 10:27:22 PM

Quote

Prove that there is no legitimate payment for it. The blockchain contains no information about the nature of the transaction.

Incredibly fucking easy. The dealership sold 5 cars that day, we know this because when you sell a car you have to transfer the title. Are there 5 payments for them?

Have you ever had contact with a government? That is definitely too hard for them.

Rarity

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Prove that there is no legitimate payment for it. The blockchain contains no information about the nature of the transaction.

Incredibly fucking easy. The dealership sold 5 cars that day, we know this because when you sell a car you have to transfer the title. Are there 5 payments for them?

Bitcoin Oz

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Wat

Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 10:09:20 PM

Quote from: myrkul on August 06, 2012, 10:04:14 PM

Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 10:02:22 PM

Quote from: myrkul on August 06, 2012, 09:54:07 PM

Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 09:43:43 PM

Okay, a drug dealer just got caught in possession of one of his cars and there is no log of the purchase in the transaction log. Busted.

Prove that drug dealer didn't buy it second-hand.

You can't.

Yes I can. Cars have VINs and transferring titles is a government process.

Right. The drug dealer is going to register the car he bought on the black market under his name. Uh huh. Good luck with that.

It doesn't matter who he registers it under, we are talking about busting the dealership here. We have the car. We know it came from them. We know they transferred the title. There is no legitimate payment for it. That is all the proof you need unless you think it is reasonable that they might be giving away cars for free.

You overestimate the competency and efficiency of the government

myrkul

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Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 10:09:20 PM

It doesn't matter who he registers it under, we are talking about busting the dealership here. We have the car. We know it came from them. We know they transferred the title. There is no legitimate payment for it. That is all the proof you need unless you think it is reasonable that they might be giving away cars for free.

Prove that there is no legitimate payment for it. The blockchain contains no information about the nature of the transaction.

Rarity

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Look upon me, BitcoinTalk, for I...am...Rarity!

Quote from: myrkul on August 06, 2012, 10:04:14 PM

Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 10:02:22 PM

Quote from: myrkul on August 06, 2012, 09:54:07 PM

Quote from: Rarity on August 06, 2012, 09:43:43 PM

Okay, a drug dealer just got caught in possession of one of his cars and there is no log of the purchase in the transaction log. Busted.

Prove that drug dealer didn't buy it second-hand.

You can't.

Yes I can. Cars have VINs and transferring titles is a government process.

Right. The drug dealer is going to register the car he bought on the black market under his name. Uh huh. Good luck with that.

It doesn't matter who he registers it under, we are talking about busting the dealership here. We have the car. We know it came from them. We know they transferred the title. There is no legitimate payment for it. That is all the proof you need unless you think it is reasonable that they might be giving away cars for free.

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