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Topic: Why do you all want to take away money from the government? Who will then build - page 2. (Read 5712 times)

sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
no, it affected the other people who were waiting in line. she went ahead of them, so they honked.

and i disagree with you.. anarchists have a problem with the cars. they don't want government involvement, and in my example, government is metaphorically the vehicle that is used for the cheating.

Which anarchists have you asked?  I don't agree with their view.

well, i don't entirely disagree with anarchists.. i hate politicians and executives as much as they do. i'm definitely not in favor of the status quo. i just don't think having an anarchistic society really fixes any of those problems.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
no, it affected the other people who were waiting in line. she went ahead of them, so they honked.

and i disagree with you.. anarchists have a problem with the cars. they don't want government involvement, and in my example, government is metaphorically the vehicle that is used for the cheating.

Which anarchists have you asked?  I don't agree with their view.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
I was at a dysfunctional stoplight today, and I think it was a perfect example for my point with social order.

The lady next to me stopped before the intersection, waited for one group of cars from the other lane to move past the light, and proceeded to move before her turn. In this instance, she didn't play by the rules that everyone else did.. and you know what? She was rewarded for it, by saving time.

Anarchists believe government is to blame for everything, and in this case.. government is the car (a vessel for social order). But you know what? The problem was not the car, but the human being behind it. A common response I'd probably get to that is "well, if she didn't have the car, there wouldn't have been a problem. Anarchists always point to the variable, the car (government) and not the human being (the constant) behind it. If you were waiting in line at disneyland, would you say "if the person didn't have legs, there would be no cutting in line"?

Everyone had their own car, and this one person made a decision that only effected herself (and of course, the people she could've put in danger.)  In the way government is setup now, only a handful of people have cars, which everyone else must drive in.  If your political leader (i.e. driver) decides to do something dangerous like skip their turn for a small gain, all the other passengers in other vehicles say, "Those fucking (your nation here) almost got us killed!  I hate these guys!"  You didn't have anything to do with it, but you're still to blame.

Anarchists don't have a problem with cars, they have a problem with who gets to drive, and for whom those people drive for.  The anarchist wants to equip everyone with a car just for themselves, and the people they take care of i.e. family and such who cannot yet drive.  They don't blame cars; they blame the people who use violence to prevent everyone else from having one.

no, it affected the other people who were waiting in line. she went ahead of them, so they honked.

and i disagree with you.. anarchists have a problem with the cars. they don't want government involvement, and in my example, government is metaphorically the vehicle that is used for the cheating.
sr. member
Activity: 326
Merit: 250
Last I heard Obama wasn't president of the world. He is president of the socialized states of America duh.

You heard right  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
I was at a dysfunctional stoplight today, and I think it was a perfect example for my point with social order.

The lady next to me stopped before the intersection, waited for one group of cars from the other lane to move past the light, and proceeded to move before her turn. In this instance, she didn't play by the rules that everyone else did.. and you know what? She was rewarded for it, by saving time.

Anarchists believe government is to blame for everything, and in this case.. government is the car (a vessel for social order). But you know what? The problem was not the car, but the human being behind it. A common response I'd probably get to that is "well, if she didn't have the car, there wouldn't have been a problem. Anarchists always point to the variable, the car (government) and not the human being (the constant) behind it. If you were waiting in line at disneyland, would you say "if the person didn't have legs, there would be no cutting in line"?

Everyone had their own car, and this one person made a decision that only effected herself (and of course, the people she could've put in danger.)  In the way government is setup now, only a handful of people have cars, which everyone else must drive in.  If your political leader (i.e. driver) decides to do something dangerous like skip their turn for a small gain, all the other passengers in other vehicles say, "Those fucking (your nation here) almost got us killed!  I hate these guys!"  You didn't have anything to do with it, but you're still to blame.

Anarchists don't have a problem with cars, they have a problem with who gets to drive, and for whom those people drive for.  The anarchist wants to equip everyone with a car just for themselves, and the people they take care of i.e. family and such who cannot yet drive.  They don't blame cars; they blame the people who use violence to prevent everyone else from having one.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
I was at a dysfunctional stoplight today, and I think it was a perfect example for my point with social order.

The lady next to me stopped before the intersection, waited for one group of cars from the other lane to move past the light, and proceeded to move before her turn. In this instance, she didn't play by the rules that everyone else did.. and you know what? She was rewarded for it, by saving time.

Anarchists believe government is to blame for everything, and in this case.. government is the car (a vessel for social order). But you know what? The problem was not the car, but the human being behind it. A common response I'd probably get to that is "well, if she didn't have the car, there wouldn't have been a problem. Anarchists always point to the variable, the car (government) and not the human being (the constant) behind it. If you were waiting in line at disneyland, would you say "if the person didn't have legs, there would be no cutting in line"?

One variable that is missing here in incentives. Build the incentives so that the first to break the rules wins, and you'll have the same situation as with that lady with her car. Build the incentives so that the first person to break the rules loses (like with Bitcoin protocol, or with negative costs added to breaking rules in real life), and people will behave. The trick is to figure out how to construct those incentives in an anarchy society.
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1002
You cannot kill love
I'd rather be attacked directly by bad people rather than by bad people legally funded by other bad people with my own goddamn money ("just following orders" is indefensible).

This. Even using the excuse "I was just following orders" pisses me off so much. No YOU shot those people. YOU are a murderer! I don't care what your commander told you to do! (unless it's an mandatory draft in a war situation, then I might be able to make an excuse because refusing to fulfill and order then will get you killed for mutiny).

Mandatory draft is not an defence against a charge of crimes against humanity. 

I said might because if someone (effectively) puts a gun to your head and commands you to shoot someone else or die yourself the situation isn't really clear-cut, nor your own fault. I'd probably comply but look for the first opportunity to kill the person who forced me into committing that crime.

In all other situations I agree. People are responsible for their own actions and should be held accountable. That's not how the world works however (look at the Manning vids, no-one was convicted for the serious crimes we all witnessed).
I'd just die imo, eternal peace sounds a lot nicer than killing someone.

beetcoin, nearly every case of violence is caused by greed and desire, if we were to remove money from the equation, along with infinite energy for everyone, there would be no reason to hurt someone, you'd just be outcasted by your peers or hurt back, and sad.

In the future we will not seek resources, but energy.  People will care about gaining happiness.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 101
well, people could organize meetings where they would gather money to build stuff Wink
there would be a hell lot less of bribe and shizzle Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
I'd rather be attacked directly by bad people rather than by bad people legally funded by other bad people with my own goddamn money ("just following orders" is indefensible).

This. Even using the excuse "I was just following orders" pisses me off so much. No YOU shot those people. YOU are a murderer! I don't care what your commander told you to do! (unless it's an mandatory draft in a war situation, then I might be able to make an excuse because refusing to fulfill and order then will get you killed for mutiny).

Mandatory draft is not an defence against a charge of crimes against humanity. 

I said might because if someone (effectively) puts a gun to your head and commands you to shoot someone else or die yourself the situation isn't really clear-cut, nor your own fault. I'd probably comply but look for the first opportunity to kill the person who forced me into committing that crime.

In all other situations I agree. People are responsible for their own actions and should be held accountable. That's not how the world works however (look at the Manning vids, no-one was convicted for the serious crimes we all witnessed).
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
I'd rather be attacked directly by bad people rather than by bad people legally funded by other bad people with my own goddamn money ("just following orders" is indefensible).

This. Even using the excuse "I was just following orders" pisses me off so much. No YOU shot those people. YOU are a murderer! I don't care what your commander told you to do! (unless it's an mandatory draft in a war situation, then I might be able to make an excuse because refusing to fulfill and order then will get you killed for mutiny).

Mandatory draft is not an defence against a charge of crimes against humanity. 
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
I'd rather be attacked directly by bad people rather than by bad people legally funded by other bad people with my own goddamn money ("just following orders" is indefensible).

This. Even using the excuse "I was just following orders" pisses me off so much. No YOU shot those people. YOU are a murderer! I don't care what your commander told you to do! (unless it's an mandatory draft in a war situation, then I might be able to make an excuse because refusing to fulfill and order then will get you killed for mutiny).
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1032
RIP Mommy
I'd rather be attacked directly by bad people rather than by bad people legally funded by other bad people with my own goddamn money ("just following orders" is indefensible).
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
I was at a dysfunctional stoplight today, and I think it was a perfect example for my point with social order.

The lady next to me stopped before the intersection, waited for one group of cars from the other lane to move past the light, and proceeded to move before her turn. In this instance, she didn't play by the rules that everyone else did.. and you know what? She was rewarded for it, by saving time.

Anarchists believe government is to blame for everything, and in this case.. government is the car (a vessel for social order). But you know what? The problem was not the car, but the human being behind it. A common response I'd probably get to that is "well, if she didn't have the car, there wouldn't have been a problem. Anarchists always point to the variable, the car (government) and not the human being (the constant) behind it. If you were waiting in line at disneyland, would you say "if the person didn't have legs, there would be no cutting in line"?
Government is the tank that may legally break into your home, rob you, and even kill you.

If there was no tank, your neighbors wouldn't fear to step in if someone is violating your natural rights.

huh? my point is that the tank is the vessel, and it's a variable.. you can replace a tank with any other weapon, like say a gun. but the constant in all this corruption we have in society is.. PEOPLE. the one pointing the gun, not the gun itself. that's where i differ fundamentally with anarchists.
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1002
You cannot kill love
I was at a dysfunctional stoplight today, and I think it was a perfect example for my point with social order.

The lady next to me stopped before the intersection, waited for one group of cars from the other lane to move past the light, and proceeded to move before her turn. In this instance, she didn't play by the rules that everyone else did.. and you know what? She was rewarded for it, by saving time.

Anarchists believe government is to blame for everything, and in this case.. government is the car (a vessel for social order). But you know what? The problem was not the car, but the human being behind it. A common response I'd probably get to that is "well, if she didn't have the car, there wouldn't have been a problem. Anarchists always point to the variable, the car (government) and not the human being (the constant) behind it. If you were waiting in line at disneyland, would you say "if the person didn't have legs, there would be no cutting in line"?
Government is the tank that may legally break into your home, rob you, and even kill you.

If there was no tank, your neighbors wouldn't fear to step in if someone is violating your natural rights.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1032
RIP Mommy
tl/dr; People are assholes, and will either pay "the cost of admission" to government (not their victims) for being such, if they're "caught", or most likely never get "caught", and not suffer at all, because screaming at said assholes and making them feel bad is generally a misdemeanor (ie CA PC 419), worse than an infraction.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
I was at a dysfunctional stoplight today, and I think it was a perfect example for my point with social order.

The lady next to me stopped before the intersection, waited for one group of cars from the other lane to move past the light, and proceeded to move before her turn. In this instance, she didn't play by the rules that everyone else did.. and you know what? She was rewarded for it, by saving time.

Anarchists believe government is to blame for everything, and in this case.. government is the car (a vessel for social order). But you know what? The problem was not the car, but the human being behind it. A common response I'd probably get to that is "well, if she didn't have the car, there wouldn't have been a problem. Anarchists always point to the variable, the car (government) and not the human being (the constant) behind it. If you were waiting in line at disneyland, would you say "if the person didn't have legs, there would be no cutting in line"?
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
This will be my last OT post, but if you dig the Edison hate and haven't already read the Oatmeal's awesome take on Tesla, here is a link:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla

Learned more about the man in 15 minutes from TheOatmeal than in 16 years of school.

Thanks for sharing this; very informative.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
I hope to see an overhaul of my gov during my lifetime. It saddens me deeply to know, based on empirical historical data, that a true overhaul only comes at the cost of bloodshed.

Bitcoin might be a non-violent way because it will slowly erode the powerbase of governments avoiding a direct confrontation. One can only hope.
legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1002
You cannot kill love
I hope to see an overhaul of my gov during my lifetime. It saddens me deeply to know, based on empirical historical data, that a true overhaul only comes at the cost of bloodshed.
This is not true.  All it takes is unity.  For everyone to give up money, together.  A simple choice, no blood.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
This will be my last OT post, but if you dig the Edison hate and haven't already read the Oatmeal's awesome take on Tesla, here is a link:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla

Learned more about the man in 15 minutes from TheOatmeal than in 16 years of school.

/bow
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