Topic: Why even use BitCoins? (read the post!) - page 3. (Read 2360 times)

well, there's why bitcoin debit card exist, to help people buying stuff while merchant just only accept credit card or paypal
just use something based on benefits

Simple, you shouldn't.

If you don't value the things which Bitcoin can provide (censorship-proof value transfer / store of value which can't be accessed without permission of the private key controller), don't use it.

Now, someone who wants to send or store value without the help of a middleman or the permission of an authority, they turn to Bitcoin.

I mean people can debate about the anonymity and security of bitcoins in general.  You can see these debates coming up all the time here on this section of the forum. But I suggest you to go look at some of the posts by people in the Economics section, and you will see the bigger picture bitcoin tends to tackle when it comes to how it can affect the economics of everything.  Bitcoin tends to have a way to leveling out the playing field for everyone and not become a slave to the Central Banks who control inflation rates as they seem fit. I know this seems kind of silly to think of it this way, because the dorks who watched Bitcoin grow into becoming a contender for a world currency will probably become rich off of this (and probably you too in the long run), but this is beside the point because it solves a lot of problems the Central Banks tend to create.

Everything with Bitcoin has been pretty much planned out by Satoshi since day 1... that there will be a supply curve that tends to level off after a good number of years have passed, which is controversy in itself, because there are block size debates and that sort of thing and how long should miners "mine" a block at a given time.  The fact of the matter is, is that the number of Bitcoins that are going to be produced is fixed at 21 million.  There will never be any more or any less produced (even though you have a couple million coins already lost by early miners accidentally "throwing away" tons of bitcoins because they didn't see the value in them, or they might have lost their private keys to their wallets that contain a lot of BTC.

This is an extremely valuable tool, because the first time in human history, we have the first "digital gold" if you will that can be mined by any one at any time... Though there are problems of the barrier of entry now, since in order to be profitable at mining now, you need an extreme amount of electricity and hashing power on hand to even have a chance of competing amongst the big time mining farms that are now up and running.

Another thing that I personally think makes Bitcoin extremely revolutionary, but hasn't really made it's way is the fact that if this currency were to be accepted world wide, then that means that everyone will be playing on the same "playing field" in a way, in that everyone who produces a certain good can value their good or service in Bitcoins, regardless of how much Bitcoins go for in their fiat currency system that's prevelant in the nation their in

Example: You have someone in India making jewelry, but the reason why they are still poor is because they only deal with local people who want to buy them, and they only pay in rupees.  If they were to expand their business and try marketing themselves online and selling their goods and services across the globe, as well as locally, then they could probably get the same amount of money value they would for a good or service that someone in Europe or the US would if they produced the same exact product.

---

All of this is not to say that Bitcoin doesn't have major flaws, it obviously does have a ton of flaws... but the thing is that there are so many people hopping on board now and making it easier and more accessible to people every where.  The biggest thing we need to be worried about now is not necessarily the anonymity aspect of bitcoin, because now we all know that bitcoin is and always will be pseudonymous and is very public in transactions; but rather it should be about the block size debate and how we should look at how we should give a better incentive to miners to mine.  Without hashing power and people willing to dedicate resources to continue mining, the security of transactions will severely drop and everyone will not want to use Bitcoin any more.

You have a valid point but I still think bitcoin is anonymous and secure compare to all the card available if you are going to but online but asking for your address you can send them to a wrong address but if you but using those cards they can easily trace who you are and one big advantage is the fee I was cut off $25 from one of my purchase from one popular online processor

exactly my point.. and why i said they authorities would need a warrent to do that. and the only way to get a warrent is if there is proof of criminal activity..
which i then said if the OP is only doing legit transactions he would never need to worry about such warrents being issued. and should only worry about friends and family spying on him via other means

Bitcoin is secure. The only thing is that the user need to have good security practices. As long as you don't say "I own 1ranochigo" publicly, no one can tie the address to you and is hence pseudonymous.
The fee would still be lower than the fee you would need to pay your bank or payment processor. That is without factoring in the risk of your bank/payment gateway closing your account.
a) Pay a higher fee if the goods is reversible. b) Have some kind of rebate or lower TX fees.
Bitcoin itself is decentralised, have low fees and has instantaneous transaction speed. Being pseudonymous is enough to prevent most people from spying on your spending habits.
Bitcoin transactions, when having at least one confirmation is very hard to reverse. Payment processors like PayPal allows chargeback for over 180 days. This is unsafe for people dealing with virtual goods(game credits, starbucks card etc.)

Why will purse.io or anyone admit the authority in first place that they own that address? Why will they ever need to reveal the addresses they own? Neither can the authority hack your website's database and see for themselves. So what's the point of making the owner of an address public!

First I am not using bitcoin as you mean but only as an investment. So I am using it to have more bitcoin, to make other investments which can be made with bitcoin and then I am using it as an investment not using it but holding in my wallet (because I hope that its price will go high in the future).

Then second your meaning in the post is why all this attention for bitcoin because he is not better than other tools of the same family. So have no any kind of superiority regarding the other ways of payment. Maybe is so now that it has began to became regulated and legalized. But was not so when bitcoin was firstly introduced at the market. And it is not so for all that people who use it at the Dark Web. And according to some media this market represents about 80-90% of all the volume of the bitcoin market. So here where comes most of the volume of it.

Third, according to me bitcoin may have today the specifies told by you at your main post but you must not forget that is an invention (first successful materialization) of the disruptive technology peer to peer. This technology will change the future everyday life of the human kind radically. And this product, as such, will have an important place in it. At least this is the prevision. The market seems that give reason to all that. Even after big falls(not for its faults) bitcoin is reestablished day by day more.

ok example time..
you put some bitcoin into purse.io (service to give you amazon giftcards).

all the blockchain see's is 1R4nd0m4ddr355blahblahblah -> 14n0th3R4ddr355blahblahblah

so lets say authorities wanted to know what 1R4nd0m4ddr355blahblahblah bought.
they would need to search the whole internet and hope that owners of 14n0th3R4ddr355blahblahblah is made public, or they would need to contact every bitcoin related company and ask if they own 14n0th3R4ddr355blahblahblah.

if purse.io admitted they owned 14n0th3R4ddr355blahblahblah. then the authorities will know 1R4nd0m4ddr355blahblahblah paid purse.io
lets say you were dumb enough to use your real life email address with purse.io
authorities can demand the email address linked to the account deposit 14n0th3R4ddr355blahblahblah.

but.

lets say you gave purse a throw away email. just used long enough to get your giftcard number. and you used that same throw away email to download a online book. where you used tor/proxy

in short the authorities are screwed. and your anonymity is secured.

again anonymity is only as good as the persons ability to keep their mouth shut and not reveal too much to the public.

and lastly., if your only doing legit transactions, the authorities wont even bother you, they wont be able to show a valid reason to get a warrent to compell purse.io either. if your doing nothing dodgy you got nothing to worry about regarding authorities.. but its still worth remaining anonymous incase friends, relatives or other people want to spy on you

Bitcoin is the new revolution to me!

To buy goods and luxury car

Bitcoin is secure.

That is what I said in another topic. It is only a good idea if you are paid with bitcoins.

Buying bitcoins with money that you can already spend with your bank debit card does not make any sense.

And don't forget the fact you will lose money after you bought your bitcoins, because they sell you at much higher prices. You will have less to spend in the end.

I only use Bitcoin because I am getting paid with bitcoins, when I stop being paid with bitcoins, then it won't make any sense to continue using it.

End of opinion.

If you're strictly comparing using btc vs debit cards for shopping on the Internet, I agree it's not a huge breakthrough or game changer.  I think it is a way more secure but we have a system where you're not responsible for unauthorized charges on your accounts...  Imagine if you were responsible for unauthorized charges on your credit cards, nobody in their right mind would ever use a debit or credit card because the storage of those #'s is not in your control.

Also your assumption that you have to give up privacy for shipping is not correct though https://www.privatebox.co.nz

So are you concluding it's a useless idea because it doesn't make shopping easier for you?

1. the cops didnt seize the silkroad funds by analysing the blockchain. they didnt grab it remotely..they caught him because of his gmail account being linked to advertising silkroad (not related to any money investigations)
it was only when arrested did they demand he turn over funds..
this means that unless your arrested and forced to hand them your funds, the authorities cannot freeze your funds or suck you dry remotely.. you have to give it to them under force or store the privatekey somewhere that they can find. just like bank notes

2. bitcoin is anonymous.. right up until the very second you tell people your name in the same conversation/medium as a bitcoin address..
its like bank notes.. anonymous until you make a forum post telling everyone which bank note serial numbers you own. they can then log this and keep an eye out on you

3. holding fiat in a bank account for 3 years might get you 10% interest.. but bitcoin is deflationary(limited supply) and without even needing interest bitcoins value will be higher after a few years (ignoring the speculation pump and dumps in the middle).

4. bitcoin fraud is far less then card cloning, pickpocketting, nigerian prince scams of the fiat world.

5. if you hold bitcoin in your own private key, greek banks cant limit your access, police cant freeze it remotely, its like having cash under your matress but able to spend online instantly. the only way it can be taken from you is if you naively give it over..

Alright, I see the point of view you're coming from here, so I'll try to work with this a little better.

For the silk road case, if I remember it correctly, the reason why the Bitcoins were seized was not because of them being traced, it was because they were being stored on accounts that were accessible by any party when they are in the right location, similar to having a typical wallet on your desktop. You can just get past the user password and you're in.

The thing is that it isn't, from what I know, the tracing of the transaction that gives away the identity of a user; it's other mistakes that pile on top of each other, which allow for government agencies to tie transactions to them via internet traffic or through similar means. This just serves as more evidence, and is typically not where government organizations can determine who an owner of an address is. Once they seize the hardware of a suspect, they can go through and trace transactions, compare them to the blockchain, and then figure out who other people are through interpolating/extrapolating the information of other communications. This would be like I tell Person A "I'll buy weed for $50" and then they see a transaction for $50 going to Address X, they can have high confidence that Person A owns Address X. This might be what you are referring to. The same thing would go for credit cards or any other forms of payment, not just Bitcoin.

I understand that Bitcoin is -technically- worse than other form of payment, when it comes to saving time, however it is better for merchants because it is harder to reverse a transaction, in turn making it more difficult for scammers to succeed. You did cover this in the other statement however, so I'll just leave that.

This is just what I remember/know, and I could be wrong.

Also I find this somewhat entertaining, it's always fun going back an evaluating why I think is something is correct. I apologize if I come off as rude.

U said it all here, just think about it for a second. If u need something u need to use some kind of paymant for that. For payment u need money/bitcoins. So dont u see its almost the same thing. Everyone like something, here people like bitcoins. Pretty simple, wasting time here, or wasting time on some 12 hours per day job on wind, rain, sun... well we all need some income.
For many of us this is a side thing, so why not to use my free time to try to earn something on nice and comfortable way (sittin in may chair, drinking something, smokin a cigar..al that in nice and hot room).
In my case its nice way to earn something for gambling. I dont spent my money, just what I earn here and on internet and its pretty fun acctualy.

I'm not talking about using it instead of altcoins, I'm talking about credit/debit cards, so let's not compare that. Although there are coins with much more stable value, I don't recall which it was though, but it was one of the actually private/anonymous/secure coins.

I don't save articles so I can't link you, but I remember how my route of research went the first day, so maybe that'll help. I was reading about privacy, then went to crypto forums, which lead me to a few articles about government ceasing assets and bitcoins from people, including the guy who ran silkroad. Then I googled around for more ceasings and tracebacks as to who was using bitcoins and found more info. That's probably where you would stop reading. Afterwards, I googled private coins and read tons of articles on comparisons and individual assesments as to how particular coins (mainly bitcoin at first) work.

We're also not talking about savings here either, we're talking about using bitcoins to buy stuff online instead of using credit/debit cards. Please read the post again, I think I made it clear.


If you don't reveal your name or address, how are you going to get your shipment? I was actually looking into that, but from my - so far very short - research, there is no way to do that, especially in the US (i'm from europe though).

As for revealing credit card numbers and all that, read up on bitcoin fraud, there's plenty of articles on that, most of which I even skipped as my main concern is privacy, and because I trust myself to not use my credit/debit card at places that say "buy 1 Geforce 980ti, get one free!"

You have to reveal it if you want your shipment, so that's a moot point, so I'll just refer to the two paragraphs above.

First off, stop repeating yourself with the theft, it's getting annoying to read the same over and over again. And now to the point: How is BitCoin more convenient? I outlined specific points as to why debit/credit cards are a hell of a lot more convenient than bitcoins. Your workplace won't pay you bitcoins, it'll put cash into your bank account which, which means debit/credit card. As for a bad credit, that's only relevant to a) big purchases, b) credit cards. And bitcoins work like a debit card, which you can get whether you have low credit or not.

I don't see why it's better for payments to be irreversable - if you want a refund (or issue one, though we're talking purely about the customer's perspective here as outlined in the first post) it's a hell of a lot easier. And whenever I payed for anything, the payment was always instant. Always. No exceptions except for one (out of literally 100+ times) when I transfered money to a friend's bank account around new year.

Bitcoin is secure, much more so than credit/debit cards. You are much more likely to get your credit card information stolen than you are to get Bitcoin stolen. With Bitcoin, there is no need to reveal your name or address. You don't reveal a credit card number so thieves can't steal your credit card and make your credit score tank. Credit card fraud is a huge problem and Bitcoin completely removes that.

Another thing, Bitcoin does provide a layer of anonymity. It is pseudonymous, so while yes people can trace your transactions, they don't actually know who you are. They don't have an identity associated with the address unless you choose to reveal it. There is no name or physical address to steal. Along with that, you can't get your identity stolen like you can with credit/debit cards.

Bitcoin is also a lot more convenient than credit cards or debit cards, especially to those who can't get those cards. If you have bad credit then you can't get a credit card. Bitcoin gets around that, it is like a debit card, but it doesn't have the problem that debit cards have, theft. Debit card numbers are easy to steal, and that can drain your entire bank account. Bitcoin doesn't have that problem.

Payments made through credit and debit cards are not instant. They do not instantly become reversible. Those transactions are reversible up to 180 days. With Bitcoin, it becomes irreversible after 10 minutes. Even if it takes longer, those transactions are still confirmed in less than 180 days. This is better for merchants than consumers.

Speaking based solely on my point of view, we use Bitcoin as it has value, and stable value, as opposed to every other coin which fluctuates to all hell.

I am also curious as to what articles make you think Bitcoin isn't all the private or anonymous. And as to why you say we are wasting our time.

It's fine by me if you want to watch your savings depreciate over time and, when you're 60 years old, you find out that your life savings are worth 30% of what they where when you earned them. But I on the other hand am interested in appreciating assets.