Why has no fiat casino adopted provably fair gambling? - page 2.

South Park

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I am terrible at Fantasy Football!!!

Quote from: BitcoinPC on September 14, 2017, 05:59:48 AM

Quote from: Samarkand on September 08, 2017, 03:44:00 AM

Several years ago the first Bitcoin dice sites hit the market. The most amazing feature
of these sites (does anyone know, which was the first one?) was the ability
to cryptographically verify the fairness of your bets.

I was wondering why no traditional fiat casino operator has copied this brilliant idea?
With the programming resources and the budgets that are available to the big casino brands this can´t be that
hard to execute. After all several of the Bitcoin dice sites have been programmed by 1-2 man
operations.

Is the reason that games of this type are not included in their gaming licenses?
Are the fiat casino operators just unaware of this breakthrough in online gambling?
What other possible explanations are conceivable?

Because only the outline World cares about that. You have to understand that you guys are living in a small world comprised very small components. Only people inside this world care about these things. I'm side there or is it a tire separate system that keeps track of everything else.

True while bitcoin adoption is growing we have the idea that the growth is bigger than it is because we are in this forum and not only we know about bitcoin but about many altcoins, but outside of this forum I have yet to meet a person that brings the topic of bitcoin to me, since I'm the one that always brings the topic and not a single person knows about bitcoin.

BitcoinPC

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Quote from: Samarkand on September 08, 2017, 03:44:00 AM

Several years ago the first Bitcoin dice sites hit the market. The most amazing feature
of these sites (does anyone know, which was the first one?) was the ability
to cryptographically verify the fairness of your bets.

I was wondering why no traditional fiat casino operator has copied this brilliant idea?
With the programming resources and the budgets that are available to the big casino brands this can´t be that
hard to execute. After all several of the Bitcoin dice sites have been programmed by 1-2 man
operations.

Is the reason that games of this type are not included in their gaming licenses?
Are the fiat casino operators just unaware of this breakthrough in online gambling?
What other possible explanations are conceivable?

Because only the outline World cares about that. You have to understand that you guys are living in a small world comprised very small components. Only people inside this world care about these things. I'm side there or is it a tire separate system that keeps track of everything else.

ettagames

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my opinion is for the fiat online casinos which already running very successful business, there is no advance advantage for them to provide provably fair games due to they already have a good system(regulation) and trusted relationship with players, maybe it will take more advantage for the newcomer of the gambling market.

Hhampuz

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Meh.

The main reason is probably that their current customers are not aware or do not care enough for them to implement an entire new system when they already make money doing what has always worked.

Soon though, make no mistake, they'll all be switching over to crypto and use provably fair engines to ensure legitimacy. That's the beauty of this crypto revolution that's spreading at a fast rate, it's opening up eyes. Soon enough one of the big online casinos will start accepting Bitcoin or other crypto. There was one a couple of years ago that accepted Bitcoin, verajohn.com I believe. Not sure if they still do but yeah, I'm certain they are aware and just awaiting or making plans for the switch over to the better systems.

Give it time, that's all

.

adaseb

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As I understand the reason why there is no provabily fair online non-bitcoin casinos is because there is no need.

Most of the games are like Sports bet, which are very easy to verify. Or they are PVP Poker games which have no incentive to cheat.

Never understood why dice didn't really catch on with the non-bitcoin crowd.

michkima

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The reason is that a lot of real casinos have a super high house edge! That is why even if they do not even employ provably fair they will profit regardless. Even if the players try to investigate the legitimacy of every game, it will come out that it is legit. They don't need to cheat to profit because they profit by a huge amount because of the high house edge!

Wipro

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Quote from: South Park on September 13, 2017, 12:09:12 PM

Quote from: Samarkand on September 12, 2017, 06:46:04 AM

Quote from: rocketbits on September 11, 2017, 11:34:55 PM

...
Absolutely, You have rightly said. As far as they don’t anything like that, they will not adopt that strategy. They can use this in the near future but only if they start such sort of games which do need such sort of stuff. Till the time they are dealing only with physical games, there is hardly any need of it.

As someone already pointed out I was talking about online fiat casinos.
Therefore it has nothing to with physical items like a real roulette table or anything like that.

Maybe I´m 1-2 years too early with this thread. I really anticipate this to take off in the near future, because all
major brands will be forced to offer provably fair gaming when the first brand pioneers the introduction.

I do not know about that, bitcoin users are very demanding, we are not happy with fiat then we adopt bitcoin, we do not like fiat casinos then we adopt bitcoin casinos, the average person gets whatever is in front of him, accepts it and likes it even if the product is not very good.

Casino games are now much popular in the online nowadays like bluewhale. If you have enough money please increase the fund other investment option bitcoin to get the decent profit. Atleast in sports betting you have to understand the profit may occur. You need to understand the more information about the site.

South Park

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I am terrible at Fantasy Football!!!

Quote from: Samarkand on September 12, 2017, 06:46:04 AM

Quote from: rocketbits on September 11, 2017, 11:34:55 PM

...
Absolutely, You have rightly said. As far as they don’t anything like that, they will not adopt that strategy. They can use this in the near future but only if they start such sort of games which do need such sort of stuff. Till the time they are dealing only with physical games, there is hardly any need of it.

As someone already pointed out I was talking about online fiat casinos.
Therefore it has nothing to with physical items like a real roulette table or anything like that.

Maybe I´m 1-2 years too early with this thread. I really anticipate this to take off in the near future, because all
major brands will be forced to offer provably fair gaming when the first brand pioneers the introduction.

I do not know about that, bitcoin users are very demanding, we are not happy with fiat then we adopt bitcoin, we do not like fiat casinos then we adopt bitcoin casinos, the average person gets whatever is in front of him, accepts it and likes it even if the product is not very good.

buwaytress

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Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!

Here's my take. I don't quite buy that there isn't any demand for fiat casinos to prove their fairness. If there weren't then these casinos wouldn't be regulated - part of effective regulation is to require them to prove fairness in their games. As someone already mentioned, at the moment, these certifications are targeted at RNG systems built into proprietary software you'll find on all these fiat casinos. This is, at the moment, not the same way provably fair systems in crypto dice work. With fiat casinos, you rely on 3rd parties... testing labs and certification companies who prove fairness. With crypto gambling provably fair, you do it yourself.

I'm pretty sure the provably fair feature wasn't demanded from Bitcoin dice players either. It certainly is now, but only because it's become the benchmark for crypto casinos.

And to answer one of the original questions (Who was first?)... I would like to know too! I wrote a piece on this a while back. My cursory research points to BitZino way back in 2012. Here's their thread about it: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitzino-bitcoin-casino-blackjack-roulette-3-card-poker-slots-and-more-87656

Samarkand

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Quote from: Junko on September 12, 2017, 02:16:14 PM

Aren't most online fiat casinos required to be regulated, licensed, certified and have their software/rng's audited anyway? If so, why would they go through the extra/redundant effort and cost of becoming provably fair?

Some of these gaming licences are not worth the paper they are not printed on Grin

There have been many scam accusations against fiat online casinos in the past, where the casino
had a valid gaming license. However, very often the regulatory body didn´t do anything to help the players.
What use is a gaming license if it doesn´t help the player to get their money in the case of an
angle, a scam or an exit scam by the casino operator?

You really have to differentiate between legit gaming licenses (e.g. Malta or UK) and less legit gaming
licences (e.g. a gaming license from some native american tribe).

Junko

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Aren't most online fiat casinos required to be regulated, licensed, certified and have their software/rng's audited anyway? If so, why would they go through the extra/redundant effort and cost of becoming provably fair?

Qartersa

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Because the fiat casinos are all cheating! That is why! It is so hard to prove they are cheating because the code is on the machine itself and it cannot ever be checked on the spot! And people don't care, people just play and don't even bother think "hey, is this slot machine legit as it can be?" Nobody asks that question and nobody every dared try and check for it.

South Park

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I am terrible at Fantasy Football!!!

Quote from: klf on September 08, 2017, 07:17:30 AM

Quote from: eternalgloom on September 08, 2017, 05:04:44 AM

I think there's really no demand for it by traditional gamblers who have never played on a real provably fair casino. They just don't even know about provably fair.
So why would a traditional casino even make an investment to build a provably fair system?

I can't say if traditional casino's are actually cheating, in my country it's heavily regulated, but it's possible.

Regulations for people to gamble but there are no regulations for casino owners not to cheat because these games very seldom someone else will go and verify whether they are cheating or not. Bitcoin dice and other games are online so people demands for fairness otherwise no one will trust the site and deposit money so they are forced to prove games are fair. But in physical casino, no one will ask for fairness to prove.

According to casino owners of live casinos their games are fair, but who certifies them? Themselves, so there is not really a guarantee that those game are fair at all, so in my opinion bitcoin casinos are doing a great job by making sure that users can verify their results and see there is no cheating involved.

veleten

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I think the answer is simple: if there is demand for provably fair for fiat casinos and the players vote with their money
i.e. playing at the provably fair,trusted online casinos such as Primedice,Bitsler,Crypto-games etc.
more and more fiat casinos would try and provide verifiers and open provably fair (not the md5 jokes some of them have)
it is not that hard,just takes some time and money to adapt PF to the existing games

piloder

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Most of the fiat based online casino offer third party games so implementing provably fair system in those game depends on gaming software provider but these days most of these software provider have provably fair games expect live games where most of the casino make huge profit because all of those games is rigged.

Red Fish

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Fiat casinos can adapt probably fair gambling too, it is just simple advertising. In all online casinos you play with casino software, so fair gambling depend from software. Sometimes fiat casinos loose, if they give no deposit bonuses to all players and they play and win. But casino owners also want to make profit, so probably fair gambling means probably owner will win !!! Grin

Samarkand

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Quote from: rocketbits on September 11, 2017, 11:34:55 PM

...
Absolutely, You have rightly said. As far as they don’t anything like that, they will not adopt that strategy. They can use this in the near future but only if they start such sort of games which do need such sort of stuff. Till the time they are dealing only with physical games, there is hardly any need of it.

As someone already pointed out I was talking about online fiat casinos.
Therefore it has nothing to with physical items like a real roulette table or anything like that.

Maybe I´m 1-2 years too early with this thread. I really anticipate this to take off in the near future, because all
major brands will be forced to offer provably fair gaming when the first brand pioneers the introduction.

rocketbits

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Quote from: iluvbitcoins on September 08, 2017, 04:41:04 AM

They don't have the need to do so yet.

Most of the games are with physical items, so you can't prove the fairness with hashes, plus they want to frame the games so they don't want to play fair.
Remember that jumping roulette ball? Yeah, they have a magnet for that.

Absolutely, You have rightly said. As far as they don’t anything like that, they will not adopt that strategy. They can use this in the near future but only if they start such sort of games which do need such sort of stuff. Till the time they are dealing only with physical games, there is hardly any need of it.

Samarkand

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Quote from: FrueGreads on September 10, 2017, 04:06:17 AM

Quote from: Samarkand on September 09, 2017, 12:03:12 PM

Quote from: eternalgloom on September 08, 2017, 05:04:44 AM

I think there's really no demand for it by traditional gamblers who have never played on a real provably fair casino. They just don't even know about provably fair.
So why would a traditional casino even make an investment to build a provably fair system?
...

I assumed that someone would ask what incentives a fiat online casino could have to actually introduce
a provably fair game. In my opinion the answer is quite straightforward.

The only fiat casino market is heavily saturated with lots of competition. If you manage to be the first fiat
casino brand that offers provably fair games this could give you a major competitive advantage.

I think I'm with eternalgloom on this one, and I will talk about my experience, and some of my friends. When I started gambling I did it only with fiat (partypoker, betfair, titanpoker) and similar big sites or networks, that offer both poker and casino. I only got to know provably fair when I switched to BTC. When I played on those big fiat casinos, I did not even know what provably fair was, and the same thing with my friends. So I don't really think they need to offer that, because their regular users just don't care about that. If one offered, maybe all others would start doing it, so again if there is really no demand for it, why do it?

The answer to your question is contained directly in the post of me that you quoted!

I´ll say it again:
If you manage to be the first fiat casino brand that offers provably fair games this could give you a major competitive advantage.

That is a great thing for the brand that introduces an innovation like this due to the following reasons:
-implicitly the offers of your competitors look shady or at least not as trustworthy, because they are not provably fair (a user might think: "They aren´t provably fair, so probably they have something to hide, the games are rigged and so on")
-you could gain a higher marketshare in a highly profitable, but saturated market with lots of competitors
-you could stand out from the offer, because as Stunna pointed out many operators don´t really differ, because they get their games from the same
few game suppliers like NetEnt or Quickspin
-higher turnover, because some gamblers might increase their turnover, if they don´t have to worry about being cheated (I admit that they still have to worry a bit, because what good is a provably fair game, if you never bother to actually verify your bets)

FrueGreads

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Quote from: Samarkand on September 09, 2017, 12:03:12 PM

Quote from: eternalgloom on September 08, 2017, 05:04:44 AM

I think there's really no demand for it by traditional gamblers who have never played on a real provably fair casino. They just don't even know about provably fair.
So why would a traditional casino even make an investment to build a provably fair system?
...

I assumed that someone would ask what incentives a fiat online casino could have to actually introduce
a provably fair game. In my opinion the answer is quite straightforward.

The only fiat casino market is heavily saturated with lots of competition. If you manage to be the first fiat
casino brand that offers provably fair games this could give you a major competitive advantage.

I think I'm with eternalgloom on this one, and I will talk about my experience, and some of my friends. When I started gambling I did it only with fiat (partypoker, betfair, titanpoker) and similar big sites or networks, that offer both poker and casino. I only got to know provably fair when I switched to BTC. When I played on those big fiat casinos, I did not even know what provably fair was, and the same thing with my friends. So I don't really think they need to offer that, because their regular users just don't care about that. If one offered, maybe all others would start doing it, so again if there is really no demand for it, why do it?

Topic: Why has no fiat casino adopted provably fair gambling? - page 2. (Read 1649 times)