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Topic: Why not just print dollars? - page 17. (Read 30063 times)

hero member
Activity: 1722
Merit: 528
May 12, 2017, 04:40:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpW_KMHlAmo

Why borrow dollars and then pay back by printing them?

Why take the long way around?

I've also been thinking these since I was high school after a history class. But when I tried to ask my teacher, he answered me one word, value. When they print a lot of money, the money that circulates the economy gets higher, the value gets lower, they also want to make their money increase it's value.
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 520
May 12, 2017, 04:11:38 PM
This is not quite so

If this debt is denominated in the same currency that you happen to issue, you can easily "return" this debt by printing as much money as needed. In fact, outright printing money is one of the ways of deficit financing, though in normal (more or less) situations normal governments rarely stick to it (Zimbabwean dollar is a glaring example what such monetary policy is set to eventually end in). On the other hand, in extreme cases such as all-out wars, the policy of printing money for financing military as well as other expenses is universal across the world. From Roman Empire to Weimar Republic authorities had been doing that

How does a nation print debt away without incurring hyperinflation, and when has this happened in history?

It happens every time whenever there is a major war

Every nation had been doing essentially the same throughout history in such circumstances. The Union had been printing greenbacks in the American Civil wat just like their opponents, the Confederates, did the same. In these cases hyperinflation is a postponed effect which may never come. If you lose a war, your money is gone anyway, if you win you just plunder the other side, thus squashing hyperinflation with the loot. The "worst" case is when there is no winner as well as no loser, and then governments must squeeze the monetary base if they don't want hyperinflation

And yes, the Americans can print $20T, it's just they won't because it brings other issues.

They don't need to print 20T dollars since this is not a debt, this is in fact a payment or contribution of the world to the US. Japan, the largest holder of the US debt, is an outright dependent state, a vassal of Uncle Sam. China is in essentially the same position since it heavily depends on the US both economically and technologically
That's actually a good point, I never really thought of it like that but there is so much US money in the world is essentially forces all those countries to become increasingly reliant on the USD since they hold so much of it. Quite the interesting plan when you really think about it.
I'm curious what would happen with a lot of economies if the US simply didn't have their money flowing out to them. Considering China sells a lot to the US, I don't know what their trade would be like otherwise.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
May 12, 2017, 04:01:33 PM
This is not quite so

If this debt is denominated in the same currency that you happen to issue, you can easily "return" this debt by printing as much money as needed. In fact, outright printing money is one of the ways of deficit financing, though in normal (more or less) situations normal governments rarely stick to it (Zimbabwean dollar is a glaring example what such monetary policy is set to eventually end in). On the other hand, in extreme cases such as all-out wars, the policy of printing money for financing military as well as other expenses is universal across the world. From Roman Empire to Weimar Republic authorities had been doing that

How does a nation print debt away without incurring hyperinflation, and when has this happened in history?

It happens every time whenever there is a major war

Every nation had been doing essentially the same throughout history in such circumstances. During the American Civil war the Union had been printing the greenbacks just like their opponents, the Confederates, printed the graybacks like there was no tomorrow (and there really hadn't been tomorrow for the latter). In these cases hyperinflation is a postponed effect which may never come at all. If you lose a war your money is gone anyway, if you win you just plunder the other side, thus squashing inflation with the loot and boot. The "worst" case is when there is no winner as well as no loser, and then governments must squeeze the monetary base if they don't want runaway inflation to overrun them

And yes, the Americans can print $20T, it's just they won't because it brings other issues.

They don't need to print 20T dollars (actually, only around 7T) since this is not a debt as we are told or made to believe, this is in fact a payment or contribution of the world (some part thereof) to the US. Japan, the largest holder of the US debt as of now, is an outright dependent state, a vassal and slave of Uncle Sam, they are doing what they are told. China is essentially in the same position since it heavily depends on the US both economically and technologically
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 520
May 12, 2017, 03:52:10 PM
Actually, that's not true.

When a debt is issued, it is issued for that amount of money and it cannot really be modified, unless stated, aside from interest accumulating. As such, if you have the ability to print your own money and take out a loan, and you take out a $10 loan in "funnymoney" but you lose those $10, you can print $10 and pay it back, but there are $20 of "funnymoney" in circulation. They just lose a lot of their value. The debt can't change itself to match the exchange rate and you can print yourself out of debt, it just really damages your economy if you have to do that.

Would you go so far as to say the united states being $20 trillion in debt is irrelevent?

"The american treasury can print a single $20 trillion dollar bill to take care of it?"

The reason I say its impossible for a nation to print its way out of deficit and debt is: I can't remember a single instance of it happening throughout history.

Its easy to create anecdotal examples of how a country might print its way out of debt.

But in the real world, things never happen that way.

This is not quite so

If this debt is denominated in the same currency that you happen to issue, you can easily "return" this debt by printing as much money as needed. In fact, outright printing money is one of the ways of deficit financing, though in normal (more or less) situations normal governments rarely stick to it (Zimbabwean dollar is a glaring example what such monetary policy is set to eventually end in). On the other hand, in extreme cases such as all-out wars, the policy of printing money for financing military as well as other expenses is universal across the world. From Roman Empire to Weimar Republic authorities had been doing that

How does a nation print debt away without incurring hyperinflation, and when has this happened in history?

 Huh
Weimar Germany, just after WW1, is the most recent reference for history where a country was literally printing itself out of debt. It didn't work out completely in the end, but they got rid of a decent portion out of debt before the political game caught up to them and they had to re-evaluate their currency and change their behavior.
And yes, the Americans can print $20T, it's just they won't because it brings other issues.
legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1441
May 12, 2017, 03:44:33 PM
Actually, that's not true.

When a debt is issued, it is issued for that amount of money and it cannot really be modified, unless stated, aside from interest accumulating. As such, if you have the ability to print your own money and take out a loan, and you take out a $10 loan in "funnymoney" but you lose those $10, you can print $10 and pay it back, but there are $20 of "funnymoney" in circulation. They just lose a lot of their value. The debt can't change itself to match the exchange rate and you can print yourself out of debt, it just really damages your economy if you have to do that.

Would you go so far as to say the united states being $20 trillion in debt is irrelevent?

"The american treasury can print a single $20 trillion dollar bill to take care of it?"

The reason I say its impossible for a nation to print its way out of deficit and debt is: I can't remember a single instance of it happening throughout history.

Its easy to create anecdotal examples of how a country might print its way out of debt.

But in the real world, things never happen that way.

This is not quite so

If this debt is denominated in the same currency that you happen to issue, you can easily "return" this debt by printing as much money as needed. In fact, outright printing money is one of the ways of deficit financing, though in normal (more or less) situations normal governments rarely stick to it (Zimbabwean dollar is a glaring example what such monetary policy is set to eventually end in). On the other hand, in extreme cases such as all-out wars, the policy of printing money for financing military as well as other expenses is universal across the world. From Roman Empire to Weimar Republic authorities had been doing that

How does a nation print debt away without incurring hyperinflation, and when has this happened in history?

 Huh
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
May 12, 2017, 02:37:12 PM
If this is true, its impossible for a nation to "print" its way out of deficit or debt as its currency will devalue off supply increasing

This is not quite so

If this debt is denominated in the same currency that you happen to issue, you can easily "return" this debt by printing as much money as needed. In fact, outright printing money is one of the ways of deficit financing, though in normal (more or less) situations normal governments rarely stick to it (Zimbabwean dollar is a glaring example what such monetary policy is set to eventually end in). On the other hand, in extreme cases such as all-out wars, the policy of printing money for financing military as well as other expenses is universal across the world. From Roman Empire to Weimar Republic authorities had been doing that
sr. member
Activity: 714
Merit: 261
May 12, 2017, 12:08:50 PM
It's like very common stuff to do really. It has regulations by government and it costs you money to print money. Bitcoin is rare and has value way lot than any other currency.
hero member
Activity: 713
Merit: 501
May 12, 2017, 10:30:46 AM
What has the bigger value? Something that's common everywhere or something rare found in a very few places? I think you see where I'm going with this. Also, that's how inflation works, you just print out money and it becomes worthless.

Depends. If bitcoin has become common everywhere, then the price will surely shoot up since that's how demand and supply works. If only a couple of people knew about bitcoins, then the price will just be a couple of cents/dollars. I mean, fiat is common everywhere but it surely has a decent value. Rarity is not the only thing that people are considering. Something can be so rare but if it doesn't have a use or it's not attractive at all, then people wouldn't give it that much attention.

Not sure how does "how common" something is (or simply popularity) make something inflated. It's the quantity and not the popularity that causes inflation. You were basically referring to two different things.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1007
May 11, 2017, 06:07:24 PM
Litecoin having a cap of 84 million coins is the reason its priced lower than dash with its 21 million coin cap.

Fundamental principles of supply & demand dictate the value of something declines when supply increases.

If this is true, its impossible for a nation to "print" its way out of deficit or debt as its currency will devalue off supply increasing.
Actually, that's not true.

When a debt is issued, it is issued for that amount of money and it cannot really be modified, unless stated, aside from interest accumulating. As such, if you have the ability to print your own money and take out a loan, and you take out a $10 loan in "funnymoney" but you lose those $10, you can print $10 and pay it back, but there are $20 of "funnymoney" in circulation. They just lose a lot of their value. The debt can't change itself to match the exchange rate and you can print yourself out of debt, it just really damages your economy if you have to do that.
hero member
Activity: 1022
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Need some spare btc for a new PC
May 11, 2017, 05:53:59 PM
What has the bigger value? Something that's common everywhere or something rare found in a very few places? I think you see where I'm going with this. Also, that's how inflation works, you just print out money and it becomes worthless.
legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1441
May 11, 2017, 05:03:25 PM
Litecoin having a cap of 84 million coins is the reason its priced lower than dash with its 21 million coin cap.

Fundamental principles of supply & demand dictate the value of something declines when supply increases.

If this is true, its impossible for a nation to "print" its way out of deficit or debt as its currency will devalue off supply increasing.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 541
May 11, 2017, 08:41:55 AM
Why governments exist? who created them? us the people by electing presidents, but since money and power corrupts people they started to part ways and establish their own empires and ignoring our interests.
We trusted them with national resources such as gold and everything valuable to take them and present us with something more lighter and easy to hold and transfer(paper money) and to some extent they delivered as promised but some where along the way they went rogue and took control of military and made everything exclusive for themselves, they started to do whatever they wanted, they wagered wars killed thousands and dealt with criminals and international gangsters to further their agenda, some of them even deployed the most destructive measures(weapons) to hold and even expand their territories.

They have decided to put their own families and friends first and everyone with power and influence will try to fill their own pockets first and as their family and friends come to posses power and have influence they will try the same and that circle never actually ends.

Here what Bitcoin has done is to bypass governments all together and by using and mining and supporting it we are in fact printing our own money and saying to them enough is enough.
legendary
Activity: 3514
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English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
May 11, 2017, 08:01:06 AM
The technology of money production always works to outstrip the work of a counterfeiter
In order to reproduce modern money you need very complex and expensive equipment. Between the layers of paper you need to thread a metal thread. Printing is carried out on presses of high pressure. Even if you have a sponsor who has enough money to buy such equipment, the manufacturer will most likely not sell it if you do not have a license to produce securities

Unless this counterfeiter is the government themselves

There were numerous incidents in the past when one government had been counterfeiting the money of another government. Obviously, in the latter case you could well expect the quality of the counterfeit bills to be quite on par with the genuine bills. There were rumors circulating in the 90s that the CIA had been deliberately counterfeiting the US dollars to finance terrorists in the Caucasus during Chechen wars. Quite naturally, they didn't want these dollars back in the US and (allegedly) made a few changes in these dollars to distinguish them from the real ones 
All the dollars that go to external borrowing have special labels. They never go to the cash circulation in America. As soon as they enter the banks they are removed and then give as loans again. This helps to avoid inflation in America and increase inflation outside the United States. Compare how much it costs e.g. Japanese car in America and how much is the same car in your country

It seems like bordering on a conspiracy theory

What dollars do you refer to exactly? There are no physical dollars involved in borrowing as well as loaning. All such debts are purely digital, so it is not clear what "special labels" you are talking about. Further, it is not clear either what you mean by the whole process of "external borrowing". Foreign investors (since you mention the word external) buy the US government bonds, not dollars, and this process doesn't involve physical dollars, anyway
sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 274
May 10, 2017, 06:59:22 PM
I will just state my observations in short: Printing too much paper drives a country into inflation. Inflation can ruin the country and destroy its economy. Bitcoin has no real value, but it can be perceived that bitcoin will always be equal to another bitcoin and not to 1200$/1million$, nobody can really determine its perfect value at a perfect time, because there is a difference between price and value.
You are actually right. Bitcoin is like paper money or fiat, its value always follow the principle of law of price and demand. Of the stability of stock will increased and people will print more money inflation will happened supposing the users and the stocks will unevenly not equal to each other. And total dump of price will happen because the price or the value of bitcoin will decreased due to greater stock than on the demand of the people who supports it. But if the stock will increased as the demand increased the value will sure increased for bitcoin.
sr. member
Activity: 630
Merit: 272
May 10, 2017, 06:24:03 PM
The technology of money production always works to outstrip the work of a counterfeiter
In order to reproduce modern money you need very complex and expensive equipment. Between the layers of paper you need to thread a metal thread. Printing is carried out on presses of high pressure. Even if you have a sponsor who has enough money to buy such equipment, the manufacturer will most likely not sell it if you do not have a license to produce securities

Unless this counterfeiter is the government themselves

There were numerous incidents in the past when one government had been counterfeiting the money of another government. Obviously, in the latter case you could well expect the quality of the counterfeit bills to be quite on par with the genuine bills. There were rumors circulating in the 90s that the CIA had been deliberately counterfeiting the US dollars to finance terrorists in the Caucasus during Chechen wars. Quite naturally, they didn't want these dollars back in the US and (allegedly) made a few changes in these dollars to distinguish them from the real ones 
All the dollars that go to external borrowing have special labels. They never go to the cash circulation in America. As soon as they enter the banks they are removed and then give as loans again. This helps to avoid inflation in America and increase inflation outside the United States. Compare how much it costs e.g. Japanese car in America and how much is the same car in your country.
sr. member
Activity: 371
Merit: 250
May 10, 2017, 02:16:44 PM
Oh my god, what a question. It's like why don't we print bitcoins...

If the governments or central banks of the countries starts to print dollars, they face an incredible inflation in prices of gods. This probably would trigger an economic crysis.
sr. member
Activity: 714
Merit: 252
May 10, 2017, 01:03:08 PM
Maybe that is just the way rules and regulations works. Ha ha. I'm real world it would be chaos to accept things like bitcoin as handy as chocolate from shopkeeper. You can have as much as you want and whenever you want by paying for it. It costs money for dollars to print and it cost zero money for bitcoins as it is virtual. The maintenance is almost nothing for its value today. Maybe bitcoin is not that easy I'm real world yet. Everybody will have their bank and if it happens then what to regulate and how to regulate the market. Huh
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
March 23, 2017, 12:17:26 PM
"Printing money, excessively" is like young teen boys exaggerating the size of their dicks?

They might get away with it initially. Eventually, reality has a way of catching up?

Economic stats like unemployment and economic growth always remind me of kids exaggerating how big it is.

A little bit of exaggeration hasn't yet hurt anyone

And this is the case with inflation too. The truth is the highest rates of unemployment are observed when inflation is very low or even negative. The latter would be deflation, and this case is most dangerous for the economy since producers are disincentivized and discouraged from producing and thus have to lay off people. On the other hand, there is an inverse dependence between inflation and unemployment rates, so government may start printing more money (up to a certain limit, of course) if they want to decrease the unemployment rates in the economy
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
March 23, 2017, 12:07:57 PM
I don't think we need to worry about print what they do now is to create a digital fiat in their system, I believe most countries secretly do this but it is not know to the pubic.

I do not think that many countries secretly printing money. After all, it is primarily hurting their economies. They can not do what lowers economic growth

That's right. Everybody knows that if to print money nonstop it will worth nothing in the sooner end. The world history have many examples of such strategy. I think that is that ponit which bitcoin could skip. It's limited by 21 milions and I am against of any rising, cause of it may distroy bitcoin as we know it now.
legendary
Activity: 2478
Merit: 1360
Don't let others control your BTC -> self custody
March 23, 2017, 11:46:20 AM
The technology of money production always works to outstrip the work of a counterfeiter
In order to reproduce modern money you need very complex and expensive equipment. Between the layers of paper you need to thread a metal thread. Printing is carried out on presses of high pressure. Even if you have a sponsor who has enough money to buy such equipment, the manufacturer will most likely not sell it if you do not have a license to produce securities

Unless this counterfeiter is the government themselves

There were numerous incidents in the past when one government had been counterfeiting the money of another government. Obviously, in the latter case you could well expect the quality of the counterfeit bills to be quite on par with the genuine bills. There were rumors circulating in the 90s that the CIA had been deliberately counterfeiting the US dollars to finance terrorists in the Caucasus during Chechen wars. Quite naturally, they didn't want these dollars back in the US and (allegedly) made a few changes in these dollars to distinguish them from the real ones 
There were also cases of private individuals making counterfeited bills so good that you needed special equipment to know which ones were real. They used stolen paper, the same that was used to print the real bills and had machines able to microprint and stamp the bills, so that all the UV and watermarks were in place. The most well known is probably Frank Bourassa. http://www.gq.com/long-form/the-great-paper-caper
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