Topic: Why not stıck to bıtcoın? (Read 2843 times)

The Bitcoin network costs ~$150M a year to run.  Either way you pay for it.  Users (collectively) pay for the cost of securing the network by inflation or by transaction fees.  The cost is real.  One could hard fork Bitcoin so that it has continual block subsidy at 12.5 BTC after the next subsidy cut, and eliminate all fees (possibly using a tx POW to prevent denial of service).  This wouldn't make Bitcoin free.  The network has a real operating cost and users would pay for it in the form of inflation.

It is also a fallacy to say fees have to be "too high" in order to support the network.  Not necessarily, it all depends on tx volume.  At $150M a year that works out to $2853 per block.  To keep the current level of network strength miners need to be compensated ~$2853 per block. You could have $2853 in subsidy (inflation), $2853 in fees or more likely some combination of both.  Miners don't care.  Either way the miners are supported by the same amount of annual revenue.

The larger the network the lower fees can be.  Assuming no block subsidy the fee per tx would be
@ 1 tps = $4.76 per tx
@ 7 tps = $0.68 per tx
@ 50 tps = $0.10 per tx
@ 5,000 tps = $0.01 per tx

If you want to look at it terms of Bitcoins.  Today miners are compensated an average of 0.12 BTC (120 mBTC) per transaction by a combination of subsidy and fees.  That is relatively high but the marginal cost per tx is very low (maybe 0.01 mBTC) so the network can support significantly higher volume without significantly higher cost.  How high?  Well that is a matter of some debate but at a minimum 10x to 100x is pretty conservative.  At 10x current volume that would put the cost per tx @ 12 mBTC and would be lower than many other payment systems.  At 100x it is more like 1 mBTC and Bitcoin would be the lowest cost transaction system in the world.


Of course due to the relatively high subsidy the network is likely stronger than it needs to be (based on the value of economic tx it protects).  So there is plenty of time before fees have to become even a majority of miner's revenue.  It does show the genius of Satoshi system.  The network has real cost and if users directly pay that real cost solely in tx fees the project would be nonviable from day one.  Instead miners are subsidized to support the network while it grows.  Your claim is only true in the network remains relatively small even after a couple decades.  Then again if the network remains relatively small after a couple decades then Bitcoin likely is a failure. A high subsidies wouldn't change that fact.

 

Why?

Clearly Bbitcoin is better than nothing at all, so there will always be people sustaining the network, no matter what hashrate. You also have "collectible" and "sentimental" values attached to it, now that it's been around the "block" a bit.

Unless you have proof that isn't going to be the case?

What will happen is the value of bitcoin will be high enough that the transaction fees will be plenty to cover the miners. Higher volume(worldwide use) will cause there to be a TON of transaction fees.

If 1 bitcoin is $1,000,000 and you can mine 0.00001btc per day which would be what you should expect for just transaction fees. lol
That would net you about $10 a day. There is no way to go into detail and estimate what the speed/cost of mining hardware will be at that point but bitcoin will compensate either way.
Profitability drops, miners stop mining, difficulty lowers and the same amount of bitcoin from transaction fees is spread out over less miners.

Anyway, we have a long time to debate this b4 it actually happens. lol

The coin cap of bitcoin could eventually kill it. People won't spend millions a year on mining hardware and power if mining isn't giving a decent return. Transactions fees could work but they could also drive people away if the fees got too high.

I doubt bitcoin will last in the long term, 10+ years. Most alt coins will tank long before btc though, every litecoin clone as well as litecoin are doomed imo.

The only innovative alt-coins have been PPCoin (first PoS) and Primecoin (first scientifically useful hash).  All the others could be written by any script kiddie.  Having said that, Litecoin, Novacoin and Digitalcoin all have a persistent following.

Haha ok   You are fucking your wife, and everyone else is fucking her too. No wonder she is so slow tired.

Whores are fun, I like fun, they're risky, you can have your pick of many, find your ideal girl and pump her till you're tired, then dump her.

You carry on pounding away at your haggard old tired wife, and you beat that ass til that ass don't move no more.  

yeah ıts lıke usıng a gırl that you dont plan on marryıng.

you fuck her as much as you want, occasıonally sleepıng wıth bıtcoın on the sıde but you sleep wıth all the alt coıns and you mıght even get a nasty STI from ıt all.

careful guys dont play wıth whores

If the majority are mining altcoins with the only intention of exchanging for Bitcoins in the future. Surely that is unsustainable and the whole altcoin thing with collapse?

Just because bitcoin went up in value doesn't mean alt coin will.

If you trade Alt coins, then you will know you can increase the amount of Bitcoins you own by a factor of 2x 4x, or even 10x, in a matter of days or weeks.

Many of these coins are completely worthless as currencies, This I agree with. But as a means to multiply your holdings in Bitcoin, very easy if you are willing to take the gamble.

If you only hold Bitcoin and do nothing with it and just sit back and watch the price rise and fall, you still have the same amount of bitcoins.
If you sell Bitcoins for fiat on a top, and buy back cheaper, yes you will increase the amount of Bitcoins you own, but is Bitcoin going to go up in value, say x10, like an alt, in a matter of weeks, without mass panic?.....no

Trading alts is high risk, and if you are not careful you can lose a lot of your equity. But the reward for me outweighs the risk, and as long as you spread your stake over a few coins, and do your research on each one to make sure they have good user support, and a good development team behind them, you can further minimise that risk. Also try to never sell for cheaper than you bought. Eventually the price should come back up. If you did your research properly.

There are a few Alts out there which I think are serious contenders for the main stage ahead, as I don't think Bitcoin will prevail alone. I hold these Alts for the long term, these include LTC, PPC and CGB.

LTC because of it's popularity.
PPC because it holds a steady value, and is reliable.
CGB because it is rare, and IMO could increase 10x 20x 50x in value in the near future, and it has one of the best development teams among all of these new alts.

This to me is why alts are so popular, not because of innovation, or what they can do as a currency. Only as a means to satisfy our own ingrained greed, and hope for a more comfortable financial future.

For small miners the best coins are the ones that aren't even on exchanges, as once they get onto exchanges the difficulty goes up way high.

Lets see what prices i0coin and groupcoin go to when they get on exchanges (again in the case of i0coin) before assuming that the much larger numbers of coins per day you get of the merged coins no pools or hardly any pools bother to merge before assuming many thousands of coins per day that aren't yet on an exchange is a worse deal than a pittance of coins that already haver their difficulty driven high by large mining farms / many miners.

CPU mining BBQcoin last year was way the heck more profitable even using only one core than my GPU or (part of the year) two GPUs were mining anything, even mining BBQcoin since if they had mined BBQcoin they would have driven its difficulty up spoiling the nice easy mining the people CPU mining it with only one core each were doing all year...

So no thanks I will keep raking in the coiledcoins and geistgeld with the other merged coins until I see whether the i0coins and groupcoins from the last year or few turn out to have been a profit or not...

-MarkM-

Because all those coins you mentioned add so little to the profitability, you are better off mining another coin.


Bitcoin 100%

Namecoin 1.3%

Devcoin 0.03%

ixcoin 0.8%


where as something like Zetacoin will give you 140% let alone one of the scrypt coins which will give you several hundred percent over BTC.


Merged mining SHA256 is a waste of time as you shouldn't be mining Bitcoin in the first place if you are smart.

Why not pick up your free on the side merged coins while you mine bitcoin?

Why bother NOT grabbing free namecoins, devcoins, groupcoins, ixcoins, i0coins, coiledcoins and geistgeld on the side along with your bitcoins when you mine?

Not doing so seems kind of like mining gold while throwing away all the silver, copper, and other metals lying there with the gold, you are digging anyway, why not pocket them too as well as the gold?

-MarkM-

From trader's perspective, you can only see limited rise or fall with bitcoin in a day (lets say 20% market change is huge for bitcoin while 200% in a day happens once or twice in a year). And then there are altcoin, that are mostly losing value, but some of them produce 1000% in a matter of week. IFC, FRK, GDC + some other pumped coins. So if you want to earn quick buck (or lose quick buck), you can gamble on alts.

And alts are faster to transfer from one exchange to another.

Why not stick to regular keyboard?

I agree with this.


For anyone who may only have 1-2 hundred bucks to invest, it really doesn't make all that much sense to buy bitcoins and hold them. The rates of return might be ok longer term or they may not be.
Whereas the rates of return are much greater for the new coins starting up, and someone with 1-2 hundred bucks can amass a large pile of coins, instead of just one measly bitcoin.

Buying the new coins, you might get 10x, 100x, 1000x your money or more, and I think it is more likely to occur than if buying bitcoins.

I'm currently writing a book, it's called

"My brief sexual encounter with cryptocurrency"

      "A story about a love affair that just wouldn't end"




            "New York times: Best seller!"

There are several Altcoins out there that aren't copy and pastes, most deal with the notion of interest on coins e.g. Peercoin (PPC) uses Proof of Stake mining and assigns those who participate interest on their coins that they use for PoS mining.
There's also Freicoin which uses the idea of demurrage which functions like a negative interest i.e. the longer you hold onto it, the fewer coins you'll have, which promotes market liquidity and spending.
And finally there's Primecoin, although it doesn't function that differently to Bitcoin from a user's perspective.

Then there are Alts that aren't based on Bitcoin such as EMUnie.

There's quite a lot of choice out there if you're looking for it, and it's not all shifty copycats.

That's why I'm glad there are altcoins in crypto. If something happens to BTC, I'm done.

Altcoins let investors hedge their funds.

Imagine Nasdaq only had one kind of stock on there. Who would invest in that?

fair enough


actually, it's more like a stock exchange at this point. most all of them can be converted to bitcoins in the end.