Why Ripple™ is against everything Bitcoin - page 8.

Richy_T

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Quote from: hashman on May 19, 2013, 02:13:39 PM

I disagree. The BTC early-adopter allocation (Read: botnet operator allocation) (and lightning quick distribution-- 4 years to reward halving) certainly leave something to be desired in fairness. However most bitcoin enthusiasts see this as a "more fair" system than one in which counterfeiting and related debt-creation fraud are rampant with huge societal costs. Fairness for the holders of the coins, that they cannot be devalued by any third party, is very much an important part of the equation.

This can also be seen in alt-coins with large premines which have had difficulties being accepted by the community.

I happen to quite like the Bitcoin distribution model (I'd like it more if I got in earlier), in fact I think it's just one of the many genius parts of the design and largely responsible for the success we're seeing. However, there's no arguing that some people don't see it as far and I would further suggest that fairness is not a prerequisite for success.

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Quote from: Richy_T on May 19, 2013, 12:09:11 AM

But I do think everyone needs to get over this "unfair" thing. Life is unfair. Whichever way you slice things up, someone will think it's unfair. People think Bitcoin's early-adopter allocation is unfair. But the thing is, it's irrelevant. It will either succeed or fail on its merits and fair doesn't enter the equation.

I disagree. The BTC early-adopter allocation (Read: botnet operator allocation) (and lightning quick distribution-- 4 years to reward halving) certainly leave something to be desired in fairness. However most bitcoin enthusiasts see this as a "more fair" system than one in which counterfeiting and related debt-creation fraud are rampant with huge societal costs. Fairness for the holders of the coins, that they cannot be devalued by any third party, is very much an important part of the equation.

This can also be seen in alt-coins with large premines which have had difficulties being accepted by the community.

nelisky

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Quote from: pekv2 on May 18, 2013, 08:26:34 AM

Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on May 18, 2013, 06:46:05 AM

With Ripple, 1 BTC-Bitstamp is 1 BTC-Bitstamp. You lose them when Bitstamp [gets hacked | by owners | raided by DHS].

Most important, people should know.

And again, FUD. Yes, what is said is absolutely true, but put that in context:

With Bitstamp, 1 BTC is 1 BTC-Bitstamp
With MtGox, 1 BTC is 1 BTC-Mtgox
With any online wallet...
With any exchange...
With coins you lend your friend...

This is in no way a ripple thing, even though it is also true with ripple.

Richy_T

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Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on May 19, 2013, 07:27:14 AM

People are free to not use something that is unfair, however, and speak out against it.

Sure. People can do what they want. I just think the unfair argument is pretty weak. Especially for a voluntary system (unlike when the government decides it will help itself to the profits of your labor for whatever ends it happens to feel like).

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Quote from: Richy_T on May 19, 2013, 12:09:11 AM

Quote from: anti-scam on May 13, 2013, 11:49:21 AM

3. It is arguably unfair.

With Bitcoin I can say that the coins are given out via lottery. This seems fair to people. With XRP I have to say that the creators gave themselves all 100 billion of it and intend on using most of it for profit. They won't accept that.

I have to say that I'm skeptical about Ripple. I've been hearing about it for a while now and thought I should look into it in case I was missing out like I was on Bitcoin for so long. Have to say, I'm not impressed. But I do think everyone needs to get over this "unfair" thing. Life is unfair. Whichever way you slice things up, someone will think it's unfair. People think Bitcoin's early-adopter allocation is unfair. But the thing is, it's irrelevant. It will either succeed or fail on its merits and fair doesn't enter the equation.

People are free to not use something that is unfair, however, and speak out against it.

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Quote from: jubalix on May 18, 2013, 09:39:47 PM

I may be wrong, but then if the gate was shuts down, or the ultimate trsuted person in the chain or possibly anyone in the chain that I needed to ge to the gateway I am stuffed.....all over

Note that the example didn't contain a gateway. In a sense a gateway is just a user that is trusted by many people, which results in short paths between many individuals. The more gateways, the more robust the system. But even if there aren't any gateways, you can still ripple from person to person. You are only exposed to credit risk caused by the people you've directly granted trust. If someone on the chain defaults, then the payment should still reach you, though the person after the person that defaulted would probably revoke his trust, so that the same thing couldn't happen again.

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it seems there would be a point where it would be more profitable for a gateway to shutdown, having lots o btc then trade, so there would be an (increasing?) economic insentive at some point to not not be a trusted gateway....and run away with my BTC. I realise I have he same risk with say gox or btce holding my BTC, but in Ripple is it the case I can have any number of small enties any of which would say, I out thanks for your BTC...!

Yes, trust means trust. If you don't trust a person not to do this, don't grant them trust or you may be the victim of something like TradeFortress's little stunt. And don't just trust a gateway either: they're likely to be less reliable at keeping your money than banks, which aren't terribly reliable to begin with nowadays.

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Quote from: anti-scam on May 13, 2013, 11:49:21 AM

3. It is arguably unfair.

With Bitcoin I can say that the coins are given out via lottery. This seems fair to people. With XRP I have to say that the creators gave themselves all 100 billion of it and intend on using most of it for profit. They won't accept that.

I have to say that I'm skeptical about Ripple. I've been hearing about it for a while now and thought I should look into it in case I was missing out like I was on Bitcoin for so long. Have to say, I'm not impressed. But I do think everyone needs to get over this "unfair" thing. Life is unfair. Whichever way you slice things up, someone will think it's unfair. People think Bitcoin's early-adopter allocation is unfair. But the thing is, it's irrelevant. It will either succeed or fail on its merits and fair doesn't enter the equation.

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100 satoshis -> ISO code

Quote from: Richy_T on May 18, 2013, 11:14:04 PM

Quote from: justusranvier on May 12, 2013, 04:59:27 PM

One possible solution is to only extend trust to people who you know,

If there's one thing I've learned as I've gone through life, it's that you can't trust at least 80% of the people you know. And that includes the ones you think you can.

This has been my reservation with trust systems all along. Money destroys friendships and money destroys family relationships. Society seems to work better when individuals have the option to keep their financial affairs separate from their personal life.

Richy_T

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Quote from: justusranvier on May 12, 2013, 04:59:27 PM

One possible solution is to only extend trust to people who you know,

If there's one thing I've learned as I've gone through life, it's that you can't trust at least 80% of the people you know. And that includes the ones you think you can.

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Quote from: Richy_T on May 18, 2013, 10:38:16 PM

Quote from: misterbigg on May 11, 2013, 08:50:00 PM

Primates take note:

So what are you, some kind of lizard man?

That's not PC. They prefer to be called follicle impaired.

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Quote from: misterbigg on May 11, 2013, 08:50:00 PM

Primates take note:

So what are you, some kind of lizard man?

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you don't have exchange rate risk if you are trading in fiat.

Bullshit

As someone who had loan defaults all over the place with the BTCUSD rally, you are subject to the exchange risk with Ripple even if you're dealing with fiat.

Sell someone a BTC for $100 USD? BTC drops to $2 each, good luck collecting on that debt.

You didn't trust that guy directly? Your friend will be pissed because he just lost a hundred bucks.

It's quite clear that a trust free system is way better than a system that requires trust.

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jubalix

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ha i love it I asked for some support from ripple the reply

This sounds like a gateway issue?

so they sit there and deny any problems in their system and just blame it all on the gateway

genius

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redwraith

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Tradeparanoid: Yes and the future of bitcoin can be called into question when the blocksize limit is changed. Tons of people get their bitcoin accounts hacked all the time. What else can happen? I don't know, but I'm sure we can speculate like you can. Speculation is not fact.

Your entire argument against ripple is speculation and whatif's designed to create fear and doubt in the minds of the ones who have just a casual knowledge of it i.e. your little "social experiment".

Do better. You sound like a psuedo-messiah whose religion has been threatened by an alternate interpretation. Please stop sounding so desperate, it's not good for bitcoin.

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Quote from: pekv2 on May 18, 2013, 08:26:34 AM

Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on May 18, 2013, 06:46:05 AM

With Ripple, 1 BTC-Bitstamp is 1 BTC-Bitstamp. You lose them when Bitstamp [gets hacked | by owners | raided by DHS].

Most important, people should know.

Added this post to OP

mmeijeri

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Quote from: justusranvier on May 18, 2013, 08:43:19 AM

Of course speculators gonna speculate, but I'm not really interested in calling something that's consumable a currency. XRP is just something you need to have in your wallet so that you can use the network.

I see no reason why BTC would be superior as a currency in the long run. In the short run, I'm holding a small amount of BTC and a tiny amount of XRP.

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I don't know if Ripple has a future in a post-fiat currency scenario, but I can see ways it could be used that would help ease the transition.

Ripple the fiat payment system would probably have no use anymore, but you could use it for exchanging between multiple cryptocurrencies as well as for community credit in one or more cryptocurrencies, if that ever takes off. XRP the currency could well remain provided it manages to establish itself as a currency first. But easing the transition and protecting crypto from a statist crackdown are the two main things I'm hoping for.

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Quote from: mmeijeri on May 18, 2013, 08:26:59 AM

Well, actually it is both a payment system and a currency. XRP can be traded much like BTC, with zero counterparty risk. The great advantage over Bitcoin is that XRP is fully integrated with the Ripple fiat payment system and can therefore interface with the fiat world far more easily.

Of course speculators gonna speculate, but I'm not really interested in calling something that's consumable a currency. XRP is just something you need to have in your wallet so that you can use the network.

Quote from: mmeijeri on May 18, 2013, 08:26:59 AM

Once crypto is established, that won't matter anymore, because then fiat currencies may go the way of the dodo, but it will be very useful, perhaps even necessary, to get there. Personally, I'm worried that Bitcoin may be doomed without Ripple or something like it. Of course, something like Ripple could also be built on top of BTC rather than XRP. That would be a good thing, because competition keeps everybody honest.

I don't know if Ripple has a future in a post-fiat currency scenario, but I can see ways it could be used that would help ease the transition.

mmeijeri

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Martijn Meijering

Well, actually it is both a payment system and a currency. XRP can be traded much like BTC, with zero counterparty risk. The great advantage over Bitcoin is that XRP is fully integrated with the Ripple fiat payment system and can therefore interface with the fiat world far more easily. Once crypto is established, that won't matter anymore, because then fiat currencies may go the way of the dodo, but it will be very useful, perhaps even necessary, to get there. Personally, I'm worried that Bitcoin may be doomed without Ripple or something like it. Of course, something like Ripple could also be built on top of BTC rather than XRP. That would be a good thing, because competition keeps everybody honest.

Topic: Why Ripple™ is against everything Bitcoin - page 8. (Read 45626 times)