Why the winklevoss ETF failed | Bitcointalksearch.org

fewcoins

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Quote from: gentlemand on November 28, 2014, 01:43:43 PM

Quote from: gog1 on November 28, 2014, 01:34:45 PM

the ETF has been dragging on for quite a while now - is that the usual timeframe to get an ETF going or is it moving more slowly than usual

They take a fair old while at the best of times, and this is a totally new breed. It could drag on for a long time yet.

Especially after mt. gox failed & that was suppose to be one of the main indicators!

Quote from: Cluster2k on November 30, 2014, 09:02:14 PM

Bitcoin was meant to bring more freedom, less central control and lower costs to the general public. Embracing a different group of middlemen, rent seekers, and general Wall Street leaches seems quite counterproductive in the long term.

Point is the cost of production is ridiculous!! Paper money in the banking system has very high profit margin... this shit takes close to $500k PER DAY to make that crazy amount of coins they do. Not enough buyers... prices are being held up by exchange inflating, fractional reserve investing, and it won't end! Don't get caught in this, check out how many people really only "BTCITCOIN" !!! We are simply share holders with .0---% It is horrible! At least cash is gladly accepted everywhere Wink

Good luck to all

Cluster2k

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Bitcoin was meant to bring more freedom, less central control and lower costs to the general public. Embracing a different group of middlemen, rent seekers, and general Wall Street leaches seems quite counterproductive in the long term.

rjclarke2000

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Quote from: cr1776 on November 30, 2014, 06:35:35 PM

Quote from: rjclarke2000 on November 30, 2014, 06:30:17 PM

Sorry for having my head buried in the sand for a while but are we any closer to knowing if or when this is hitting wall street?

Not yet. They are waiting on the bureaucrats.

Anti-GOX type measures include auditing their holdings publicly on the blockchain. :-)

Well no one wants that mess again.

cr1776

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Quote from: rjclarke2000 on November 30, 2014, 06:30:17 PM

Sorry for having my head buried in the sand for a while but are we any closer to knowing if or when this is hitting wall street?

Not yet. They are waiting on the bureaucrats.

Anti-GOX type measures include auditing their holdings publicly on the blockchain. :-)

rjclarke2000

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Sorry for having my head buried in the sand for a while but are we any closer to knowing if or when this is hitting wall street?

STT

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Quote from: Biodom on November 29, 2014, 02:24:41 PM

I totally agree. Bitcoin ETF and CFTC will mess up bitcoin the same way gold ETF messed up gold.
There is NOT enough gold behind gold ETF, options, futures, swaps, etc, etc. Most of it is just paper as in everything else.
As soon as bitcoin is financialized, its long term future will dim.
That does not mean that beforehand there will not be a final "financial bubble" in bitcoin to 5000-10000.

This event already occured with Mt Gox. It was not 100% backed, depositors there were taking part in a leveraged scheme they were not aware of. The collapse you are describing is already apparent in the price now with confidence of many shaken in how bitcoin allowed this deception so easily.

I dont think we have a solution except the obvious that convenience is not a good reason to keep the majority of your holdings in one place not fully under your control and this was a failure of trust in one man or one website not the bitcoin protocol itself. Similar failings can occur with gold deposits and many central banks store their gold in new york federal reserve who struggle to return it on demand

arbitrage001

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I thought the point of Bitcoin was to escape Wall Street but now we are embracing it? Whats with you guys? Oh right, I almost forgot...Greed

There is only one reason why most posters are here, and same reason why you are here.

Raystonn

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No, the point of Bitcoin was to escape a) the fiat control of central banks, b) the fees of money transmitters, and c) the naked short selling in the gold market.

These are under no threat by taking wall street money.

Biodom

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Quote from: wobber on November 28, 2014, 04:40:24 AM

I had never, ever understood the ETFs, derivatives, stocks and anything else in Bitcoin. I'm not mocking anything, I sincerely never understood why would someone need something like that.

I totally agree. Bitcoin ETF and CFTC will mess up bitcoin the same way gold ETF messed up gold.
There is NOT enough gold behind gold ETF, options, futures, swaps, etc, etc. Most of it is just paper as in everything else.
As soon as bitcoin is financialized, its long term future will dim.
That does not mean that beforehand there will not be a final "financial bubble" in bitcoin to 5000-10000.

Chef Ramsay

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What I do know about what's going on behind the scenes here is that the Wink bros got a heavyweight attorney that knows her way around the SEC playground very well. I wouldn't write this one off so flippantly. And, SecondMarket ain't no slouch neither. Wink

belmonty

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Quote from: arbitrage001 on November 29, 2014, 11:38:56 AM

Quote from: wobber on November 28, 2014, 04:40:24 AM

I had never, ever understood the ETFs, derivatives, stocks and anything else in Bitcoin. I'm not mocking anything, I sincerely never understood why would someone need something like that.

To hedge production cost for miners and to gamble.

I suppose Wall Street is ultimately about big time gambling and the ETF sounds the same to me.

thejaytiesto

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Quote from: wobber on November 28, 2014, 04:40:24 AM

I had never, ever understood the ETFs, derivatives, stocks and anything else in Bitcoin. I'm not mocking anything, I sincerely never understood why would someone need something like that.

To make money Roll Eyes

arbitrage001

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Quote from: wobber on November 28, 2014, 04:40:24 AM

I had never, ever understood the ETFs, derivatives, stocks and anything else in Bitcoin. I'm not mocking anything, I sincerely never understood why would someone need something like that.

To hedge production cost for miners and to gamble.

thms

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Quote from: cbeast on November 28, 2014, 07:01:23 PM

Quote from: thms on November 28, 2014, 01:49:23 PM

Maybe Zuckerberg is lobbying against the ETF just as a revenge against the twins.

This isn't a congressional issue. Lobbyists wouldn't have any effect. If true the drama would make a good sequel movie someday.

It isn't a congressional issue but lobbysts can act in the fincen circle too, isn't it?

STT

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Quote from: fewcoins on November 28, 2014, 12:14:48 AM

Very true! Unfortunately if more leveraged shorting occurs, things will not be looking good. The people involved in this ETF are already controlling the btc market... we are talking about big moves here!!!

20% off sounds a great offer. I dsagree on the leveraged shorting though, the basic premise of bitcoin is that it is an accounted for system without leverage. The failures that may occur from leverage will be tied to the companies that operate them much like when mt gox went under. We found out they had been using fractional reserve but this is not a failure of bitcoin. Of course if people associate the two and if a leveraged company is used by many then it looks bad but on a basic level this etf failure occuring would not cause any damage to bitcoin itself mostly just its reputation.
In a network economy that association to negative events can be serious and cause value lost but it is face value. Im more worried about the protocol or the mining operations long term

galbros

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You are wrong, this will bring bitcoin within reach of anyone with a brokerage account. Because of that infrastructure there will be no ATML or know your customer issues. I can't help but think that this will be a Very Good Thing.

It has not failed yet. Let's give it a chance.

cr1776

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Quote from: Useli Violent on November 28, 2014, 08:40:03 PM

Quote from: cr1776 on November 28, 2014, 08:19:22 PM

Quote from: Useli Violent on November 28, 2014, 08:11:30 PM

fewcoins,

Excellent writeup - I agree with many, if not all, of your points.

In summary, wall street = kiss of death.

... Says the person trying to earn Bitcoin from affiliate links. Roll Eyes

Better get out now while you can! Between Second Market and this ETF, Bitcoin is doomed. Roll Eyes

Did I say Bitcoin was doomed? No.

Wall Street needs Bitcoin more than Bitcoin needs Wall Street.

In fact, Bitcoin does not need Wall Street, at all.

Hero members should know this by now.

You said "kiss of death". Death is the end. Doomed is then end. So, yes, you said that Wall Street would kill Bitcoin which means it is doomed. Hero members can't read your mind when you say one thing and mean the opposite.

Bitcoin may not "need" Wall Steet, but it is a positive for Bitcoin to have investment and people developing products and uses for the technology no matter where they are based.

OP says the ETF "failed" when it hasn't even started yet. That is misleading and untrue.

Useli Violent

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Quote from: cr1776 on November 28, 2014, 08:19:22 PM

Quote from: Useli Violent on November 28, 2014, 08:11:30 PM

fewcoins,

Excellent writeup - I agree with many, if not all, of your points.

In summary, wall street = kiss of death.

... Says the person trying to earn Bitcoin from affiliate links. Roll Eyes

Better get out now while you can! Between Second Market and this ETF, Bitcoin is doomed. Roll Eyes

Did I say Bitcoin was doomed? No.

Wall Street needs Bitcoin more than Bitcoin needs Wall Street.

In fact, Bitcoin does not need Wall Street, at all.

Hero members should know this by now.

cr1776

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Merit: 1313

Quote from: Useli Violent on November 28, 2014, 08:11:30 PM

fewcoins,

Excellent writeup - I agree with many, if not all, of your points.

In summary, wall street = kiss of death.

... Says the person trying to earn Bitcoin from affiliate links. Roll Eyes

Better get out now while you can! Between Second Market and this ETF, Bitcoin is doomed. Roll Eyes

Useli Violent

member

Activity: 68

Merit: 10

fewcoins,

Excellent writeup - I agree with many, if not all, of your points.

In summary, wall street = kiss of death.

Topic: Why the winklevoss ETF failed (Read 5055 times)