muahahaha, after reading this i feel the strong urge to send more cash to bitstamp and buy bitcoins. actually this is what i will do today.
op, you are doing it wrong. e v e r y o n e with a few brain cells left knows now you get paid for puking out this analysis.
Topic: Why the winklevoss ETF failed - page 3. (Read 5038 times)
If you actually read the ETF's prospectus on the SEC site, the terms are not very good. Compared to a good mutual fund, they're awful. For example, the managers of the ETF do not hold errors, omissions, or theft insurance in case they happen to somehow lose the Bitcoins. Owners of fund shares have weakened voting and litigation rights. Stuff like that. There are more risks here than the value of Bitcoin.
I think that coin ownership will be one of the reasons for Bitcoin ETF to fail. You just can't guarantee, that the majority of coins aren't held by criminals, who earned it during the period where bitcoin was almost solely used by the black market and the coin supply was cheap.
Anyway, I think that there could be one last pump left with BTC. The pump that will be started by a "credible" rumor that ETF will be super successful. This pump will be the exit for the smarter speculators who started this rumor.
It's no surprise that no one even tries to debate OP's arguments. The majority of people here always try to ridicule someone who is critical about bitcoins success. To them, bitcoin is not a matter of debate, but a matter of faith.
At least the Unibomber's Manifesto was entertaining. The OPs rant was just silly and random. His statements didn't support any rational argument. Besides, there are already Bitcoin based financial instruments in the wild. Why doesn't the OP mention them? Anyway, I think that there could be one last pump left with BTC. The pump that will be started by a "credible" rumor that ETF will be super successful. This pump will be the exit for the smarter speculators who started this rumor.
It's no surprise that no one even tries to debate OP's arguments. The majority of people here always try to ridicule someone who is critical about bitcoins success. To them, bitcoin is not a matter of debate, but a matter of faith.
I think that coin ownership will be one of the reasons for Bitcoin ETF to fail. You just can't guarantee, that the majority of coins aren't held by criminals, who earned it during the period where bitcoin was almost solely used by the black market and the coin supply was cheap.
Anyway, I think that there could be one last pump left with BTC. The pump that will be started by a "credible" rumor that ETF will be super successful. This pump will be the exit for the smarter speculators who started this rumor.
It's no surprise that no one even tries to debate OP's arguments. The majority of people here always try to ridicule someone who is critical about bitcoins success. To them, bitcoin is not a matter of debate, but a matter of faith.
Anyway, I think that there could be one last pump left with BTC. The pump that will be started by a "credible" rumor that ETF will be super successful. This pump will be the exit for the smarter speculators who started this rumor.
It's no surprise that no one even tries to debate OP's arguments. The majority of people here always try to ridicule someone who is critical about bitcoins success. To them, bitcoin is not a matter of debate, but a matter of faith.
I now own two businesses that both accept bitcoin.
No, you don't.
If you do, they are failing miserably. You spend entirely too much time on this board to be the owner of any thriving business, let alone businessES.
But we appreciate your effort anyway.
I encourage you to come get your car fixed in NYC by me! Swing by so I can get your car repaired in no time... or I can sell you one of the great cars off my lot. Let me know what you would want. Both accepting bitcoin! Or Vist KlipKeeper.com I can even give you guys the code "klipcig" for 20% off! Enjoy!!!
The ETF is a middleman. Anybody reading this forum shouldn't be operating in BTC through a middleman. The entire purpose of BTC is to remove the middleman! Whatever the ETF does is irrelevant. It was never going to be the make or break it thing for BTC. Just like financial vehicles such as IRAs diversify in gold right now, they will eventually do the same thing with Bitcoin. All Bitcoin has to do is not die for it to happen.
Very true! Unfortunately if more leveraged shorting occurs, things will not be looking good. The people involved in this ETF are already controlling the btc market... we are talking about big moves here!!!
Please change the title or show proof that the ETF has already FAILED.
Title should say "Why I think the ETF might fail"
Title should say "Why I think the ETF might fail"
The ETF is a middleman. Anybody reading this forum shouldn't be operating in BTC through a middleman. The entire purpose of BTC is to remove the middleman! Whatever the ETF does is irrelevant. It was never going to be the make or break it thing for BTC. Just like financial vehicles such as IRAs diversify in gold right now, they will eventually do the same thing with Bitcoin. All Bitcoin has to do is not die for it to happen.
There actually is a real need for 3rd party security services to handle BTC storage for people with no technical knowledge, a Bitcoin bank in other words, and that functionality essentially can already do most things an ETF does with probably less legal requirements. Going the ETF route really doesn't make sense.
There actually is a real need for 3rd party security services to handle BTC storage for people with no technical knowledge, a Bitcoin bank in other words, and that functionality essentially can already do most things an ETF does with probably less legal requirements. Going the ETF route really doesn't make sense.
Bitcoin etf was never going to serve the bitcoin community and it was never aimed to be a charitable venture. The idea is to profit from bitcoin growth, how that helps us is not immediately clear apart from raising the profile of bitcoin perhaps.
Their intentions were to profit not serve though, nobody needs a lecture on that as its quite obvious. The main basis behind capitalism is open competition inadvertently causes social good by the work done in self interest being applicable and useful to a wider audience. The ETF might have helped pave political acceptance Im thinking, any lasting benefit is probably quite unintentional. If it does not go ahead that is more a loss their end then on the market here I think
Their intentions were to profit not serve though, nobody needs a lecture on that as its quite obvious. The main basis behind capitalism is open competition inadvertently causes social good by the work done in self interest being applicable and useful to a wider audience. The ETF might have helped pave political acceptance Im thinking, any lasting benefit is probably quite unintentional. If it does not go ahead that is more a loss their end then on the market here I think
Sucks how you guys can't even see facts... I now own two businesses that both accept bitcoin. You guys are doing nothing for the community & instead of trying to come up with solutions, you spend your time photo shopping! It's sad!!! I literally put all the facts out & you guys can't even address it properly. Keep trying to get rich off bitcoin, looks like its working -_-
This is why me & many more with large sums of money in bitcoin are pulling out.
This is why me & many more with large sums of money in bitcoin are pulling out.
I'm 100% sure Fallling is getting paid after that wall of text.
^
LOL!
LOL!
The OP is FUD in its grandest form.
What is your motivation?
Why don't you go preach gun control on the NRA forums instead.
What is your motivation?
Why don't you go preach gun control on the NRA forums instead.
For some reason everyone was convinced that this ETF will be the turning point for bitcoin & bring many more mainstream investors into bitcoin without them having to make a wallet and protect their private keys etc...
HERE IS WHY THE ETF HAS DONE & WILL NEVER DO ANYTHING GOOD FOR BTCITCOIN :
The Sponsor was formed to be the Sponsor of the Trust and has no history of past performance in managing investment vehicles like the Trust. The past performances of the Sponsor’s management in other positions are no indication of their ability to manage an investment vehicle such as the Trust. If the experience of the Sponsor and its management is inadequate or unsuitable to manage an investment vehicle such as the Trust, the operations of the Trust may be adversely affected."
This goes hand in hand with
"The value of the Shares could decrease if unanticipated operational or trading problems arise. The mechanisms and procedures governing the creation, redemption and offering of the Shares and storage of the Bitcoins have been developed specifically for this product. There may be unanticipated problems or issues with respect to the mechanics of the Trust’s operations and the trading of the Shares that could have an adverse effect on an investment in the Shares. In addition, although the Trust is not actively “managed” by traditional methods, to the extent that unanticipated operational or trading problems or issues arise, the Sponsor’s past experience and qualifications may not be suitable for solving these problems or issues..."
They also acknowledge that they could be hacked or the private key could be compromised or the security system they use could have flaws or bugs & any of that would mean no recovery of any of the bitcoins rendering the shares useless. Bitcoins held by the Trust are not subject to FDIC or SIPC protections and the bitcoins will not be insured in anyway. Also nobody can be held responsible if one day they are all gone.
"If the award of Bitcoins for solving blocks and transaction fees for recording transactions are not sufficiently high to incentivize miners, miners may cease expending processing power to solve blocks and confirmations of transactions on the Blockchain could be slowed. A reduction in the processing power expended by miners on the Bitcoin Network could increase the likelihood of a malicious actor or botnet obtaining control in excess of 50 percent of the processing power active on the Bitcoin Network or the Blockchain, permitting such actor or botnet to manipulate the source code of the Bitcoin Network in a manner that adversely affects an investment in the Shares or the ability of the Trust to operate. If transaction fees are not sufficiently high, miners may not have an adequate incentive to continue mining and may cease their mining operations. Miners ceasing operations would reduce the collective processing power on the Bitcoin Network, which would adversely affect the confirmation process for transactions and make the Bitcoin Network more vulnerable to a malicious actor or botnet obtaining control in excess of 50 percent of the processing power on the Bitcoin Network. Any reduction in confidence in the confirmation process or processing power of the Bitcoin Network may adversely impact an investment in the Shares. " They also realize this could cause serious liquidity problems for the shares and they might possibly be locked out of buying or selling reasonably.
"...The Shares may be purchased from the Trust only in one or more blocks of [50,000] Shares (a block of [50,000] Shares is called a Basket). The Trust will issue Shares in Baskets to certain authorized participants (Authorized Participants) on an ongoing basis as described in “Plan of Distribution.” Baskets will be offered continuously at the net asset value (NAV) for [50,000] Shares on the day that an order to create a Basket is accepted by the Trustee. The Trust will not issue fractions of a Basket."
"... Baskets may be created or redeemed only by Authorized Participants. Each Authorized Participant must (1) be a registered broker-dealer or other securities market participant such as a bank or other financial institution which is not required to register as a broker-dealer to engage in securities transactions, (2) be a direct participant in DTC, (3) have entered into an agreement with the Trustee and the Sponsor (“Authorized Participant Agreement”) and (4) have established a Bitcoin custody account (“Authorized Participant Custody Account”) with the Trustee. The Authorized Participant Agreement provides the procedures for the creation and redemption of Baskets and for the delivery of Bitcoins required for such creations or redemptions."
"As relatively new products and technologies, Bitcoins and the Bitcoin Network have not been widely adopted as a means of payment for goods and services by major retail and commercial outlets. Conversely, a significant portion of Bitcoin demand is generated by speculators and investors seeking to profit from the short—or long-term holding of Bitcoins. The relative lack of acceptance of Bitcoins in the retail and commercial marketplace limits the ability of end-users to pay for goods and services with Bitcoins. A lack of expansion by Bitcoins into retail and commercial markets, or a contraction of such use, may result in increased volatility or a reduction in the Blended Bitcoin Price, either of which could adversely impact an investment in the Shares."
• Shareholders acting in respect of at least 75 percent of the outstanding Shares notify the Trustee that they elect to terminate the Trust;
• 60 days have elapsed since the Trustee notified the Sponsor of the Trustee’s election to resign and a successor trustee has not been appointed and accepted its appointment;
• the SEC determines that the Trust is an investment company under the Investment Company Act of 1940 and the Trustee has actual knowledge of that determination;
• the CFTC determines that the Trust is a commodity pool under the Commodity Exchange Act of 1936, as amended (“CEA”), and the Trustee receives notice from the Sponsor that, because of that determination, termination of the Trust is advisable;
• the Trust is determined to be a “money transmitter” under the regulations promulgated by FinCEN under the authority of the US Bank Secrecy Act and is required to comply with certain FinCEN regulations thereunder, and the Trust receives notice from the Sponsor that, because of that determination, termination of the Trust is advisable;
• the Trust fails to qualify for treatment, or ceases to be treated, as a grantor trust for US federal income tax purposes, and the Trustee receives notice from the Sponsor that the Sponsor determines that, because of that tax treatment or change in tax treatment, termination of the Trust is advisable;
• a United States regulator requires the Trust to shut down or forces the Trust to liquidate its Bitcoins;
• the aggregate market capitalization of the Trust, based on the closing price of the Shares, was less than $[ ] million (as adjusted for inflation by reference to the US Consumer Price Index) at any time after the first anniversary of the Trust’s formation and the Trustee receives, within six months after the last trading date on which the aggregate market capitalization of the Trust was less than $[ ] million, notice from the Sponsor of its decision to terminate the Trust;
• 60 days have elapsed since DTC ceases to act as depository with respect to the Shares and the Sponsor has not identified another depository that is willing to act in such capacity; or
• the Trustee elects to terminate the Trust after the Sponsor is conclusively deemed to have resigned effective immediately as a result of the Sponsor being adjudged bankrupt or insolvent, or a receiver of the Sponsor or of its property being appointed, or a trustee or liquidator or any public officer taking charge or control of the Sponsor or of its property or affairs for the purpose of rehabilitation, conservation or liquidation.
[/list]
I think I could go on forever but it is very hard to preach to people who only see things one sided & one way. I am a supporter of bitcoin but even though I have made money in the process I am worried about other people getting sucked in & never being able to cash out or use their currency! I am just noticing that this amazing technology is being stolen from bitcoin & being moved to other practical uses. I am noticing all the money being moved out of bitcoin and only "dumb" money flowing in. As the system gets bigger it looks more and more unsustainable. I mean c'mon we are mining close to $2mil worth of bitcoin per day everyday... In 2013 it was calculated that every 24hrs miners are burning through over $300,000 in just electricity cost! Some miners out there haven't sold yet & their expenses keep rising! Soon they won't be able to take out more loans to cover costs and they will have to join all the other miners who are dumping. WOW! 2016 should be very surprising and interesting indeed!!! If somehow you were a firm believer that this ETF will turn bitcoin completely around somehow... You must consider that the Winklevoss twins will at least do everything in their power & throw all the money they can into constantly suppressing the price of each bitcoin so they can buy up a lot more for future profit. So why would you be a buyer anywhere near these levels when in the short term you will be able to buy 2,3, maybe even more than 4times as much in bitcoin! IN THE SHORT TERM!!!
This ETF has already taken a year and a half... Watch what happens in price over the next year... Good luck to all.
HERE IS WHY THE ETF HAS DONE & WILL NEVER DO ANYTHING GOOD FOR BTCITCOIN :
- Nobody involved in the ETF knows what they're doing!
The Sponsor was formed to be the Sponsor of the Trust and has no history of past performance in managing investment vehicles like the Trust. The past performances of the Sponsor’s management in other positions are no indication of their ability to manage an investment vehicle such as the Trust. If the experience of the Sponsor and its management is inadequate or unsuitable to manage an investment vehicle such as the Trust, the operations of the Trust may be adversely affected."
This goes hand in hand with
"The value of the Shares could decrease if unanticipated operational or trading problems arise. The mechanisms and procedures governing the creation, redemption and offering of the Shares and storage of the Bitcoins have been developed specifically for this product. There may be unanticipated problems or issues with respect to the mechanics of the Trust’s operations and the trading of the Shares that could have an adverse effect on an investment in the Shares. In addition, although the Trust is not actively “managed” by traditional methods, to the extent that unanticipated operational or trading problems or issues arise, the Sponsor’s past experience and qualifications may not be suitable for solving these problems or issues..."
They also acknowledge that they could be hacked or the private key could be compromised or the security system they use could have flaws or bugs & any of that would mean no recovery of any of the bitcoins rendering the shares useless. Bitcoins held by the Trust are not subject to FDIC or SIPC protections and the bitcoins will not be insured in anyway. Also nobody can be held responsible if one day they are all gone.
- The block reward halving in 2016 is also looked at as negative!
"If the award of Bitcoins for solving blocks and transaction fees for recording transactions are not sufficiently high to incentivize miners, miners may cease expending processing power to solve blocks and confirmations of transactions on the Blockchain could be slowed. A reduction in the processing power expended by miners on the Bitcoin Network could increase the likelihood of a malicious actor or botnet obtaining control in excess of 50 percent of the processing power active on the Bitcoin Network or the Blockchain, permitting such actor or botnet to manipulate the source code of the Bitcoin Network in a manner that adversely affects an investment in the Shares or the ability of the Trust to operate. If transaction fees are not sufficiently high, miners may not have an adequate incentive to continue mining and may cease their mining operations. Miners ceasing operations would reduce the collective processing power on the Bitcoin Network, which would adversely affect the confirmation process for transactions and make the Bitcoin Network more vulnerable to a malicious actor or botnet obtaining control in excess of 50 percent of the processing power on the Bitcoin Network. Any reduction in confidence in the confirmation process or processing power of the Bitcoin Network may adversely impact an investment in the Shares. " They also realize this could cause serious liquidity problems for the shares and they might possibly be locked out of buying or selling reasonably.
- This ETF is for brokerage accounts & small time investors might not be allowed to buy in until it's too late!
"...The Shares may be purchased from the Trust only in one or more blocks of [50,000] Shares (a block of [50,000] Shares is called a Basket). The Trust will issue Shares in Baskets to certain authorized participants (Authorized Participants) on an ongoing basis as described in “Plan of Distribution.” Baskets will be offered continuously at the net asset value (NAV) for [50,000] Shares on the day that an order to create a Basket is accepted by the Trustee. The Trust will not issue fractions of a Basket."
"... Baskets may be created or redeemed only by Authorized Participants. Each Authorized Participant must (1) be a registered broker-dealer or other securities market participant such as a bank or other financial institution which is not required to register as a broker-dealer to engage in securities transactions, (2) be a direct participant in DTC, (3) have entered into an agreement with the Trustee and the Sponsor (“Authorized Participant Agreement”) and (4) have established a Bitcoin custody account (“Authorized Participant Custody Account”) with the Trustee. The Authorized Participant Agreement provides the procedures for the creation and redemption of Baskets and for the delivery of Bitcoins required for such creations or redemptions."
- Even the "Authorized Paricipants" admit speculators are the only ones using Bitcoin
"As relatively new products and technologies, Bitcoins and the Bitcoin Network have not been widely adopted as a means of payment for goods and services by major retail and commercial outlets. Conversely, a significant portion of Bitcoin demand is generated by speculators and investors seeking to profit from the short—or long-term holding of Bitcoins. The relative lack of acceptance of Bitcoins in the retail and commercial marketplace limits the ability of end-users to pay for goods and services with Bitcoins. A lack of expansion by Bitcoins into retail and commercial markets, or a contraction of such use, may result in increased volatility or a reduction in the Blended Bitcoin Price, either of which could adversely impact an investment in the Shares."
- Unlimited ability to issue shares!!! One share doesn't even equal one bitcoin & it never will!
- There are many many events that can happen causing this ETF to terminate.. Here is what they mention from 2013 :
• Shareholders acting in respect of at least 75 percent of the outstanding Shares notify the Trustee that they elect to terminate the Trust;
• 60 days have elapsed since the Trustee notified the Sponsor of the Trustee’s election to resign and a successor trustee has not been appointed and accepted its appointment;
• the SEC determines that the Trust is an investment company under the Investment Company Act of 1940 and the Trustee has actual knowledge of that determination;
• the CFTC determines that the Trust is a commodity pool under the Commodity Exchange Act of 1936, as amended (“CEA”), and the Trustee receives notice from the Sponsor that, because of that determination, termination of the Trust is advisable;
• the Trust is determined to be a “money transmitter” under the regulations promulgated by FinCEN under the authority of the US Bank Secrecy Act and is required to comply with certain FinCEN regulations thereunder, and the Trust receives notice from the Sponsor that, because of that determination, termination of the Trust is advisable;
• the Trust fails to qualify for treatment, or ceases to be treated, as a grantor trust for US federal income tax purposes, and the Trustee receives notice from the Sponsor that the Sponsor determines that, because of that tax treatment or change in tax treatment, termination of the Trust is advisable;
• a United States regulator requires the Trust to shut down or forces the Trust to liquidate its Bitcoins;
• the aggregate market capitalization of the Trust, based on the closing price of the Shares, was less than $[ ] million (as adjusted for inflation by reference to the US Consumer Price Index) at any time after the first anniversary of the Trust’s formation and the Trustee receives, within six months after the last trading date on which the aggregate market capitalization of the Trust was less than $[ ] million, notice from the Sponsor of its decision to terminate the Trust;
• 60 days have elapsed since DTC ceases to act as depository with respect to the Shares and the Sponsor has not identified another depository that is willing to act in such capacity; or
• the Trustee elects to terminate the Trust after the Sponsor is conclusively deemed to have resigned effective immediately as a result of the Sponsor being adjudged bankrupt or insolvent, or a receiver of the Sponsor or of its property being appointed, or a trustee or liquidator or any public officer taking charge or control of the Sponsor or of its property or affairs for the purpose of rehabilitation, conservation or liquidation.
[/list]
I think I could go on forever but it is very hard to preach to people who only see things one sided & one way. I am a supporter of bitcoin but even though I have made money in the process I am worried about other people getting sucked in & never being able to cash out or use their currency! I am just noticing that this amazing technology is being stolen from bitcoin & being moved to other practical uses. I am noticing all the money being moved out of bitcoin and only "dumb" money flowing in. As the system gets bigger it looks more and more unsustainable. I mean c'mon we are mining close to $2mil worth of bitcoin per day everyday... In 2013 it was calculated that every 24hrs miners are burning through over $300,000 in just electricity cost! Some miners out there haven't sold yet & their expenses keep rising! Soon they won't be able to take out more loans to cover costs and they will have to join all the other miners who are dumping. WOW! 2016 should be very surprising and interesting indeed!!! If somehow you were a firm believer that this ETF will turn bitcoin completely around somehow... You must consider that the Winklevoss twins will at least do everything in their power & throw all the money they can into constantly suppressing the price of each bitcoin so they can buy up a lot more for future profit. So why would you be a buyer anywhere near these levels when in the short term you will be able to buy 2,3, maybe even more than 4times as much in bitcoin! IN THE SHORT TERM!!!
This ETF has already taken a year and a half... Watch what happens in price over the next year... Good luck to all.
Jump to: