Topic: Why the Winklevoss ETF will send Bitcoin to the moon. - page 2. (Read 5497 times)
The ETF, if approved, will produce huge upward pressure on the price. It's the next stage of widespread adoption of bitcoin, after the early adopters and hedge funds. Ordinary people will feel much more comfortable buying a government-approved financial instrument through their online brokerage account, compared to the way we have to buy bitcoins today. I just hope the SEC won't delay approval too long!
It could be the first ETF that could be audited by clients 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
I'm sick right now so I don't feel like searching for it, but I'm pretty sure of the following:
1. A share will always be .1 BTC exactly. So $80 right now.
2. They are not diluting money away from the real thing. For every share, they guarantee to buy the real thing.
3. In the US, there are rules on investing your pre-tax retirement money (401k for corporate, 403b for non-profits, and IRA for personal). You can't take the money out without a substantial penalty unless you are 59½. It has to be invested in an SEC-registered fund. Bitcoin is not an SEC-registered fund. The ETF will be an SEC-registered fund.
4. This allows access to billions of dollars of retirement funds that can't currently come into bitcoin. Well, I borrowed half of my 401k to do it and I pay the interest back to myself. But it's really not that doable.
5. Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter, since the SEC usually takes years to approve anything. So by the time the SEC approves it, we'll probably already be at the top of the sigmoid adoption curve and there will be no money to be made in it anyway.
1. A share will always be .1 BTC exactly. So $80 right now.
2. They are not diluting money away from the real thing. For every share, they guarantee to buy the real thing.
3. In the US, there are rules on investing your pre-tax retirement money (401k for corporate, 403b for non-profits, and IRA for personal). You can't take the money out without a substantial penalty unless you are 59½. It has to be invested in an SEC-registered fund. Bitcoin is not an SEC-registered fund. The ETF will be an SEC-registered fund.
4. This allows access to billions of dollars of retirement funds that can't currently come into bitcoin. Well, I borrowed half of my 401k to do it and I pay the interest back to myself. But it's really not that doable.
5. Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter, since the SEC usually takes years to approve anything. So by the time the SEC approves it, we'll probably already be at the top of the sigmoid adoption curve and there will be no money to be made in it anyway.
I hope people will think twice before buying into the winkelvi bs
I see absolutely nothing wrong with a certain demographic buying up all those shares. They're still going to get a piece of the action whereas they otherwise would not, because they don't know how to do what we do .... to acquire Bitcoin. This will be suitable for them. Its not BS. Its just another way to get in on Bitcoin for those who have no other means. Not everyone gets the best possible option all the time. That is normal. Sure, they'll be getting a less than awesome price, but in exchange they get some perks that we don't. Sometimes people by 2nd hand 3rd hand 4th hand with a lot of things. Others find ways to get things right from the manufacturer. There's a market for both parties. 
there is no advantage to holding shares vs holding btc, is there? 
Exactly. So why bother is my question in a nutshell.
Because you have 50million dollars and its hard to get that down at MtGox.
And older folks rather not take the risk of losing their private key and maintaining security of their funds. If shares is the same as owning actual, its a nice incentive for them to hand over the risks to the ETF.
A ETF (exchange Traded Fund) is not the same as holding Bitcoin. Like a gold ETF it is meant to dilude money away from the real thing.
Let's say a ETF holds 100K BTC. The ETF makes some rule, the balance between BTC an $ should allways be between 25&33% so in the case a bitcoin is 1$ the total btc have a value of 100K. As soon as the first money flows in, this is all being parked on the side and not one bitcoin is actually bought extra. As soon as more then 50K moved into the fund the first extra bitcoin will be bought, because 50K = 33% of 150K (100K btc + $ 50K)
if the price of a bitcoin at that point rises to lets say 2$ this means the fund is worth 100K btc * 2$ = 200K$ + 50K investment money. At this point the fund exists of 80% btc and 20% $ (50K out of 250K) and this means the ETF should sell BTC until they meet their goal of at least 25% dollars.
A ETF makes the price of everything it trades in less volitile, but the owners don´t actually own any BTC, they own a piece of a fund that holds BTC. All the money put in an ETF is wasted money IMO, because you just give away your money to a trading bot with certain rules. If you want to own something you buy it, if you don´t want to own it you don´t buy it, but i would never put in an ETF, for one because it wil charges you fees 2nd because you have no personal controll over it, maybe one day the rules will change and they put it on a website somewhere with very small letters in order so you will never find out. ETF´s are often used by institutional investors (e.g. pensionfunds or 401K's in the US) because the pricefluctuation is smaller then the underlying asset/commodity and therefore less risky than the real thing + an ETF often pays dividend because of the trades they make, so you get a return on your investment.
I hope people will think twice before buying into the winkelvi bs, i am in no posission to tell you what to do with your money, but i put it in bitcoin because i want to own what I have, putting money in a Bitcoin ETF is like putting it in the bank, it's not your anymore and if for some reason the SHTF (like china stating they have enough $ and don't want any more, 2 days ago, news that is no where broadcasted but will impact the entire world) hold a piece of paper (could be a digital document) in dollar value.
I would love all pensionfunds to put in money though, because this would make it allmost impossible for BTC to ever lose all value, simply because they invest with funds that are numerous times the total marketcap of BTC today.
thanks for the clarification
there is no advantage to holding shares vs holding btc, is there?
Exactly. So why bother is my question in a nutshell.
Because you have 50million dollars and its hard to get that down at MtGox.
And older folks rather not take the risk of losing their private key and maintaining security of their funds. If shares is the same as owning actual, its a nice incentive for them to hand over the risks to the ETF.
A ETF (exchange Traded Fund) is not the same as holding Bitcoin. Like a gold ETF it is meant to dilude money away from the real thing.
Let's say a ETF holds 100K BTC. The ETF makes some rule, the balance between BTC an $ should allways be between 25&33% so in the case a bitcoin is 1$ the total btc have a value of 100K. As soon as the first money flows in, this is all being parked on the side and not one bitcoin is actually bought extra. As soon as more then 50K moved into the fund the first extra bitcoin will be bought, because 50K = 33% of 150K (100K btc + $ 50K)
if the price of a bitcoin at that point rises to lets say 2$ this means the fund is worth 100K btc * 2$ = 200K$ + 50K investment money. At this point the fund exists of 80% btc and 20% $ (50K out of 250K) and this means the ETF should sell BTC until they meet their goal of at least 25% dollars.
A ETF makes the price of everything it trades in less volitile, but the owners don´t actually own any BTC, they own a piece of a fund that holds BTC. All the money put in an ETF is wasted money IMO, because you just give away your money to a trading bot with certain rules. If you want to own something you buy it, if you don´t want to own it you don´t buy it, but i would never put in an ETF, for one because it wil charges you fees 2nd because you have no personal controll over it, maybe one day the rules will change and they put it on a website somewhere with very small letters in order so you will never find out. ETF´s are often used by institutional investors (e.g. pensionfunds or 401K's in the US) because the pricefluctuation is smaller then the underlying asset/commodity and therefore less risky than the real thing + an ETF often pays dividend because of the trades they make, so you get a return on your investment.
I hope people will think twice before buying into the winkelvi bs, i am in no posission to tell you what to do with your money, but i put it in bitcoin because i want to own what I have, putting money in a Bitcoin ETF is like putting it in the bank, it's not your anymore and if for some reason the SHTF (like china stating they have enough $ and don't want any more, 2 days ago, news that is no where broadcasted but will impact the entire world) hold a piece of paper (could be a digital document) in dollar value.
I would love all pensionfunds to put in money though, because this would make it allmost impossible for BTC to ever lose all value, simply because they invest with funds that are numerous times the total marketcap of BTC today.
there is no advantage to holding shares vs holding btc, is there?
Exactly. So why bother is my question in a nutshell.
Because you have 50million dollars and its hard to get that down at MtGox.
And older folks rather not take the risk of losing their private key and maintaining security of their funds. If shares is the same as owning actual, its a nice incentive for them to hand over the risks to the ETF.
The reason for the ETF, which you probably don't know is to make an income off bitcoin on a weekly basis. Ever hear of writing options!!!!!!!!! That's where the money on bitcoin will be made. 10$ price swing on a option you bought for 2$ at the current strike price 500% profit in minutes! Wake up and read some books on trading and the market!
Options on volatile products are priced higher, market makers are not stupid.
That's exactly what people that are writing the option want!!!! Huge volatility premium. I mean if I can sell 100$ out of the money for a couple bucks on wed and it expires on Friday..... Pretty sure I just got paid without losing a thing! Just look at an option chain on appl or goog. Way out of the money is still great weekly gains!
The reason for the ETF, which you probably don't know is to make an income off bitcoin on a weekly basis. Ever hear of writing options!!!!!!!!! That's where the money on bitcoin will be made. 10$ price swing on a option you bought for 2$ at the current strike price 500% profit in minutes! Wake up and read some books on trading and the market!
Options on volatile products are priced higher, market makers are not stupid.
The reason for the ETF, which you probably don't know is to make an income off bitcoin on a weekly basis. Ever hear of writing options!!!!!!!!! That's where the money on bitcoin will be made. 10$ price swing on a option you bought for 2$ at the current strike price 500% profit in minutes! Wake up and read some books on trading and the market!
there is no advantage to holding shares vs holding btc, is there?
Exactly. So why bother is my question in a nutshell.
Because you have 50million dollars and its hard to get that down at MtGox.
Well...yes, there is that...
there is no advantage to holding shares vs holding btc, is there?
Exactly. So why bother is my question in a nutshell.
Because you have 50million dollars and its hard to get that down at MtGox.
there is no advantage to holding shares vs holding btc, is there?
Exactly. So why bother is my question in a nutshell.
there is no advantage to holding shares vs holding btc, is there?
Most of the gold ETF's in Canada hold gold COMPANIES..not gold itself. Otherwise, why bother with the ETF's MER? Waste of money....just hold gold outright.
If its a true ETF, then wouldn't it be comprised of a collection of companies that deal with Bitcoin? Therefore not investing in the currency itself? Look at ishares ETF's. They are made up of dozens of companies for whatever particular sector you want to invest in.
Look at gold ETFs, they hold gold and/or derivatives to match the performance of an index or price.
If its a true ETF, then wouldn't it be comprised of a collection of companies that deal with Bitcoin? Therefore not investing in the currency itself? Look at ishares ETF's. They are made up of dozens of companies for whatever particular sector you want to invest in.
We just need all of the exchange to collaborate and switch over to mBTC when price reaches $1000. Then people can buy 1 mBTC for a dollar! Quick, get them while they're still cheap, we're gonna hit $50 in a few years 
EDIT: In fact, they should all just do it now.
Why bother with mBTC when we already have satoshis?EDIT: In fact, they should all just do it now.
You can currently buy a million satoshis for less than $9.
Hmm how do you know if you are able to invest with them?
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