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Topic: Why was Ordinal NFTs created? (Read 1252 times)

sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 468
May 12, 2023, 10:03:43 PM
#91

Sure, there might be a different solution, but nobody has proposed one yet. I just hope this is not what pushes Bitcoiners towards accepting POS.

if bitcoin ever went to POS then i think it's got bigger problems than ordinals. Shocked it wouldn't even be bitcoin anymore.
legendary
Activity: 2226
Merit: 1971
A Bitcoiner chooses. A slave obeys.
May 12, 2023, 12:34:33 PM
#90
~
Sorry, I don't think that makes sense. What should be the advantage of PoS when dealing with Ordinals? Ordinals even benefits miners, so it re-assures the current PoW model.

Just because the miners are benefiting does not mean this NFT/memecoin fad is good for Bitcoin. POS has nothing to do with ordinals but rather I am talking about POW being forced into a corner and people might start seeing the switch to POS as an easy option in order to decrease the congestion as well as the transaction fees (by upping the scalability of the blockchain.)

Take a look at what happened to Ethereum once the PoW started showing the weakness of congestion and ridiculously high transaction costs. That became the main argument for the switch to POS. But they sacrificed their decentralization for it. I am simply connecting the dots and seeing something similiar happening to Bitcoin, because of ordinals.

Sure, there might be a different solution, but nobody has proposed one yet. I just hope this is not what pushes Bitcoiners towards accepting POS.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 468
May 11, 2023, 08:44:04 PM
#89

People shorting Bitcoin
you cant sell something you don't own. unless someone else owns it and lets you sell it but why would they let you do that?  Shocked because if they hand over their bitcoin to you and you sell it then they just lost their bitcoin.

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People who make money of ordinals
maybe but i'm not clear on how.

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Govt and Banks who want to see Bitcoin fail so they can hock their CBDCs
i'm not sure govt and banks are worried about what bitcoin does to the extent that it determines whether they introduce some digital stablecoin of their own. they're going to do that regardless. or not.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
May 11, 2023, 04:41:42 PM
#88
Thanks @pooya87 for the explanation. What I'm still missing is how the 0-input-0-output transactions can distort the inscription numbers. Maybe because there is not a single satoshi in the in/outputs, so the Satoshi order (according to the "Ordinal Theory") is not modified, but it is assigned an inscription number anyway?

I also don't think it's correct to describe ord as a "centralized" system - it's simply a software which assigns the ordinals to satoshis in a particular way. I guess if Casey changes something, most will follow his changes, so it could be described as "de facto centralized". But you can still fork it.

So can we assume the very goal of Ordinals is to be a coordinated attack on Bitcoin, to push Bitcoin out of the competition or, more likely, push Bitcoin towards a POS consensus?
Sorry, I don't think that makes sense. What should be the advantage of PoS when dealing with Ordinals? Ordinals even benefits miners, so it re-assures the current PoW model.

In my opinion, we could describe it as an "attack", but only in the broadest sense: that some group is extracting money from it, for example a NFT trading company, or miners themselves. If it really was thought to "damage" Bitcoin then it's not a very intelligent way, as as I wrote several times, fads come and go, and once people develop alternatives or switch massively to LN/sidechains, the potential vulnerability lowers steadily.
legendary
Activity: 2226
Merit: 1971
A Bitcoiner chooses. A slave obeys.
May 11, 2023, 11:18:47 AM
#87
Our options seem to be running out and it seems that Ordinals will not go away, even if we were to restore the pre-taproot transaction size limit or introduce some filter method.

So can we assume the very goal of Ordinals is to be a coordinated attack on Bitcoin, to push Bitcoin out of the competition or, more likely, push Bitcoin towards a POS consensus? If the second hypothesis is true, then who would have the most to gain? Who would have the most control over Bitcoin?

When ETH became POS we saw three addresses that had almost half of all Ethereum. That was a very dangerous moment of decentralization for ETH. But could this decentralization happen to Bitcoin?

I think that no matter how dire the situation becomes, we should steer clear of POS. It feels like a trap that we are being cornered into.
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org
May 11, 2023, 05:09:37 AM
#86
As a miner I am not getting dirty rich off the fees.

btc was 31k viabtc paid 97% back to miners. net is   30.07k

btc is 27.5k viabtc is paying 130% back to miners. 35.75k

so  if I made $30.07 a day now I make $35.75 a day

not dirty rich.

Have to ride this out. btc hodl vs btc spam

who wins?

miners only win if price rises with fees.

hodlers only win if price rises while they hold

I don't think BRC-20 transactions are going to last long even in the (likely) event that nobody decides to take an official action against them.

After all, it's still a meme coin, so it's subject to trends just like other memes.

Miners would surely benefit in the long run from assets being transferred on bitcoin, but only if they are placed on a protocol that allows for some kind of value/usefulness on the asset. BRC-20 is way too small to store anything useful.

So, for the question on what is the best way for miners to earn fees in the long run, if its not from transactions, it's going to be by using it to make "genuine certifications" for stuff in various industries.

For example, the fashion industry will probably pay big money to mint these things to stop counterfeits

Other kinds of brands that are obsessed with genuine stuff (like ISVs for their software or someone like Apple) would also want a certification for each serial number that can't be tampered with.

So I see an important use case that some new network on top of Bitcoin can provide for these businesses, and all the fees they pay will go to miners and whoever is operating the new network.

And most importantly: The tokens are private, as in, some random bloke on the internet cannot mint a particular kind of token because it will be secret to the business who owns the keys or whatever, for minting such tokens.

This basically kills hype as the assets cannot be traded, avoiding unsustainable fee increases that hurt users.

And I think people are starting to realize that the infrastructure is already in place for hosting that kind of thing. For example there is Taro/RGB (hosting this on Lightning however, is a bad idea and will not work for design reasons), so the basic design for a minted asset has already been made.

So with this constant stream of fees "royalties", you're basically making a similar amount of money that can offset block rewards loss, if such an asset becomes an industry standard (we are talking big like ISO and IEEE like that - of course the public perception on Bitcoin has to completely flip on its head before that becomes possible).



Now this is just an idea, and I'm not going to touch it with a 10 foot stick at the moment, because there are more important things that need to be done ATM (improve Lightning wallets gallery).
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
May 11, 2023, 02:32:14 AM
#85
Basically, there seems to be a technique to inscribe a satoshi you don't own, with some 0-value input/output sorcery.
Well they never inscribed satoshis to begin with using the Ordinals Attack. They are saying it that way to make the attack look like a fancy protocol. Tongue

(Technically I haven't understood it fully, others may provide an ELI5).
In consensus rules the only thing about values that is checked is that the sum of outputs is not bigger than sum of inputs. This is why you can send 0 satoshis and spend 0 satoshi outputs. It is also not a new thing. Here is the oldest transaction that did this from 2012:
https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/transaction/3a5e0977cc64e601490a761d83a4ea5be3cd03b0ffb73f5fe8be6507539be76c
These transactions are non-standard and majority of nodes won't relay them.

The problem is if you want to ignore these satoshis you have to modify inscription numbers, and then lots of them will be "off".
The fix is actually trivial since it is a centralized service and modifying it with a workaround or a way to ignore this transaction or anything like it is very easy.

yeah, here is casey's exact statement:

“However, fixing the bug by making [the Ordinals protocol] ignore this inscription would change inscription numbers after the curious transaction. I'm honestly not sure what to do!” added Rodarmor soon after the issue was found.

As I've said before, those who created this attack are very incompetent which has been clear from day one from the way they are abusing the exploit in Taproot scripts.
jr. member
Activity: 31
Merit: 17
May 10, 2023, 11:46:05 PM
#84

Quote

if everyone wins when price goes up then price would never go down so who wins when price goes down?  Shocked

People shorting Bitcoin
People who make money of ordinals
Govt and Banks who want to see Bitcoin fail so they can hock their CBDCs
legendary
Activity: 4256
Merit: 8551
'The right to privacy matters'
May 10, 2023, 11:26:32 PM
#83

miners only win if price rises with fees.

hodlers only win if price rises while they hold

if everyone wins when price goes up then price would never go down so who wins when price goes down?  Shocked

Well depends my coins that i mined and held were 31k

As I was mining at that price my pool paid at 97% so like I said new coin was worth 30.4 due to fees.


price dropped to 27.5

my pool paid at 130% so those coins mined  were like 35k

so depending on how many coins I mined and held this crazy attack made me money on new mining and lost me money on the older held coins.

I likely (certainly) lost on the deal as I hodl more btc than I earned this last 10 days.

but I know miners that are almost all cash zero close to zero hodl

this week made them money even with coin price dropping.

It seems to be ending fees are lower nower.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 468
May 10, 2023, 10:20:34 PM
#82

miners only win if price rises with fees.

hodlers only win if price rises while they hold

if everyone wins when price goes up then price would never go down so who wins when price goes down?  Shocked
legendary
Activity: 4256
Merit: 8551
'The right to privacy matters'
May 10, 2023, 01:40:33 PM
#81

Only reason you miners like it is your getting dirty rich off the fees.
hard to argue with that.

Quote
Terrible for Bitcoin as a whole and has put people off using it for transactions.
i mean yeah that's definitely true. my first choice for sending money would not be using bitcoin these last few months, that's for sure. and i don't see that changing anytime soon. have to use other ways. probably forever.  Angry





As a miner I am not getting dirty rich off the fees.

btc was 31k viabtc paid 97% back to miners. net is   30.07k

btc is 27.5k viabtc is paying 130% back to miners. 35.75k

so  if I made $30.07 a day now I make $35.75 a day

not dirty rich.

Have to ride this out. btc hodl vs btc spam

who wins?

miners only win if price rises with fees.

hodlers only win if price rises while they hold
full member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 227
May 10, 2023, 12:54:13 PM
#80
The Ordinal NFT is actually combined since there is a difference between NFT and Ordinals itself.

Casey Rodarmor differentiated them very easily and improved the Ordinals to whole new dimensions. For example, an NFT would be a metadata which can be updated but that needs to be updated "off chain". What does it mean? Simply put, imagine an artwork of lets say monkey icon where image is little blurry. Then if there comes an update to this image and it needs to be made into high resolution image then one has to update it off chain but there was drawback to this. The original NFT would remain unattended unless and until owner refreshes the NFT on his dashboard.

On the other hand Casey Rodarmor gave amazing update to the next protocol that they coded. In case of Ordinals, they can be updated "on chain" which means if you are accessing the meta data of ordinals then it will updated live on the blockchain. This later formed the Ordinal NFT.

According to them NFT are incomplete while Ordinal NFT are complete.

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What are Ordinals?
Each Bitcoin is broken into 100,000,000 units called satoshis (or sats). The new Ordinals protocol allows people who operate Bitcoin nodes to inscribe each sat with data, creating something called an Ordinal. That data inscribed on Bitcoin can include smart contracts, which in turn enables NFTs. In rough terms, Ordinals are NFTs you can mint directly onto the Bitcoin blockchain.

But that’s not exactly right. That’s the short-hand understanding, but there are a few important differences between NFTs and Ordinals.

Bitcoin NFTs? Ordinals Inscriptions Explained (Finding, Buying, & More)

You can find detailed study on the Ordinal NFT, best article and worth 10 min reading.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 468
May 08, 2023, 10:39:53 PM
#79

Only reason you miners like it is your getting dirty rich off the fees.
hard to argue with that.

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Terrible for Bitcoin as a whole and has put people off using it for transactions.
i mean yeah that's definitely true. my first choice for sending money would not be using bitcoin these last few months, that's for sure. and i don't see that changing anytime soon. have to use other ways. probably forever.  Angry



hero member
Activity: 1220
Merit: 612
OGRaccoon
May 08, 2023, 08:57:54 AM
#78
Well it was created because it could be created. Anything that can be created will be created. The creator of Ordinals realized there was a way to spam data into transactions, an unintended consequence that was left open in the Taproot upgrade. People don't like it because it spams data into transactions, therefore filling up blocks with arbitrary data in the form of NFTs rather than monetary transaction data.

It's an interesting use of bitcoin, but it in no way helps Bitcoin, while it does hurt Bitcoin's ability to perform monetary transactions on-chain, which as we all know was already at a premium. Unfortunately there is a market for lame collections of digital images to be sold for money and therefore the economics of NFTs is such that the transaction fees are worth sending them around on Bitcoin.

Imagine you have a four lane highway and then someone realizes that there is no rule against circuses marching along the highway. Suddenly you've got several lanes filled up with a circus act while the people actually trying to travel have to be stuffed into one or two lanes instead of four. And there is a small but sufficient amount of those people who are willing to pay to watch the circus in the other lanes so the circus act clogging up the road is economically viable. That's what NFTs does to Bitcoin.




An interesting idea to think about is if NFTs end up spamming Bitcoin so much that they take over the chain, will it end up being in the best interest of Bitcoin to hard fork away with an anti-Ordinals upgrade and leave the original blockchain as a dead-end NFT-focused s**tcoin. That would be a very drastic scenario but Ordinals is essentially a spam attack on Bitcoin that is unlikely to go away as it seems even though the NFT fad largely died off already there are still enough people interested in paying money for cheap collections of digital images on the blockchain that the economics of NFTs are still worth it. The general consensus of the Bitcoin is to keep the chain immutable and not hard fork, but in cases such as this where unintended consequences of upgrades end up attacking Bitcoin and making it less useful the community may at some point need to consider moving the chain on to an upgrade that isn't compatible with such an attack, unless a soft-fork to stop Ordinals is possible.


But the answer to the questions is it was created because it could be. And yes it is an interesting use of Bitcoin, it's just not a good use of Bitcoin, due to Bitcoin being the digital currency for all of humanity and transaction space being at a premium. The last thing Bitcoin needs is arbitrary non-currency data lessening its ability to move money around.

Your opinion is it is spam. Others believe it to be art.

https://www.moma.org/learn/moma_learning/_assets/www.moma.org/wp/moma_learning/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Warhol.-Soup-Cans-469x292.jpg


is the above art?  mom.org says it is.

so you may not like it but if blockchain art is deleted I smell lawsuits.

Best you can do is set a future date to stop new additions.

Which will make the ones on the chain  now more costly.



I think we can safety say spam is exactly what happened.

Only reason you miners like it is your getting dirty rich off the fees.

Terrible for Bitcoin as a whole and has put people off using it for transactions.

Pandora's box is open..

sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 468
May 06, 2023, 12:03:25 AM
#77
appreciate the link.

Quote
The problem is if you want to ignore these satoshis you have to modify inscription numbers, and then lots of them will be "off".
yeah, here is casey's exact statement:

“However, fixing the bug by making [the Ordinals protocol] ignore this inscription would change inscription numbers after the curious transaction. I'm honestly not sure what to do!” added Rodarmor soon after the issue was found.

he's not sure what to do  Shocked luckily ordinals is not part of bitcoin core. and it can be ignored to that extent...

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Inscription numbers aren't that important in the Ordinals protocol, but if someone was selling things like "the 1000st monkey" or "the 100st BRC-20 token" based on that number, their business model may be broken now.
whoever had the 1000th monkey probably got it by a bit of luck since I don't think you can control exactly what number you get. but they were probably trying so yeah they wouldn't be too happy if casey in his infinite wisdom decided to renumber things...

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(As I wrote in the previous post, NFT ownership seems not to be broken by this attack.)
from the way the article sounded, i would agree. but it does maybe sound a small alarm bell to people who own monkeys that they need to get their house in order. and understand their monkey better.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
May 05, 2023, 09:02:33 PM
#76
what are you talking about exactly? what do you mean inscription numbers don't work anymore?  Shocked

This story:

Developer Inserts 'Bug' in Bitcoin Ordinals—How Bad Is It?

Basically, there seems to be a technique to inscribe a satoshi you don't own, with some 0-value input/output sorcery. (Technically I haven't understood it fully, others may provide an ELI5).

The problem is if you want to ignore these satoshis you have to modify inscription numbers, and then lots of them will be "off".

Inscription numbers aren't that important in the Ordinals protocol, but if someone was selling things like "the 1000st monkey" or "the 100st BRC-20 token" based on that number, their business model may be broken now.

(As I wrote in the previous post, NFT ownership seems not to be broken by this attack.)
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 468
May 05, 2023, 08:29:42 PM
#75

(made by the guy who yesterday launched a first successful "attack" on Ordinals ... the so called "inscription numbers" now don't work anymore, but the ownership does, so [for many, unfortunately] the protocol seems not to be broken still).

what are you talking about exactly? what do you mean inscription numbers don't work anymore?  Shocked
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
May 05, 2023, 07:18:02 PM
#74
I personally believe the reason why they refused to use a side-chain (even though other solutions existed) is because they wanted to gain maximum hype possible for their scams.
Yep, I believe that too. However, that's true for the hype phase. In the long run, the protocol offering the best compromise between the factors cost, safety and access to the Bitcoin ecosystem will win. And that may be a sidechain.

I've just read that there's a demo sidechain called Soma specially for NFTs, a so-called "spacechain" in beta testing on signet, which would work in a decentralized fashion. (made by the guy who yesterday launched a first successful "attack" on Ordinals ... the so called "inscription numbers" now don't work anymore, but the ownership does, so [for many, unfortunately] the protocol seems not to be broken still).

However, I'd also argue that those using Bitcoin to pay and receive payments would benefit from moving parts of their activity to a sidechain if it is decentralized enough. The problem is that RSK is almost completely centralized, Stacks is already better but uses a premined token. Drivechain is probably the best long term proposal but needs a controversial code change. Thus the idea of a "decentralized Stacks fork" with a merge-mined token.

I merely suggested a "miner-chain" merged-mined with Bitcoin to continue paying the miners through block rewards.

I've partly read what you discussed about miner incentives, but I guessed partly it was also about scaling/improving the "block congestion" issue. The proposed Soma spacechain would already be able to fulfill both goals - its reward policy could be designed in a way an infinite coin issuance (like in Dogecoin or in Monero) is ensured.
member
Activity: 64
Merit: 17
May 05, 2023, 12:14:32 PM
#73
So in the long run, would this not increase bitcoin scaling problem?
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
May 04, 2023, 01:35:20 AM
#72
Just an observation: Now (in late April/early May 2023) the focus of the Ordinals community seems to have been directed to smaller inscriptions like BRC-20 tokens which could already have been achieved without Taproot because they're definitely below the 10K script size limit.

(BRC-20 tokens are basically tokens like those possible with Omni or Counterparty, only that they're using Ordinals to store a JSON text file Roll Eyes with the parameters of each token/transaction. I'm still wondering why they use that silly and ultra-inefficient approach).

Now these small inscriptions are causing fees to grow even more than the first big Ordinals wave in February/March. The reason is actually simple: storing a 50K picture with 10 sat/bytes is already expensive, but a small token transfer of no more than 300-400 bytes is perhaps even possible with 100 sat/bytes.

This could lead me to conclude that the bigger Inscription transactions aren't really the problem for the current blockchain bloat. The problem are periods of extremely high blockchain activity when some kind of "hype" is going on, regardless of the size of the individual transactions. And such a hype could have been already possible with pre-Taproot rules.

So I think the solution is not hard forking into a new limit. Instead sidechains should be made finally possible, because these could provide enough space to get rid of the problems when these "hypes" arise.

With Stacks providing already a relatively descentralized method for sidechains, why not fork Stacks and use a decentralized (non-premined) merged-mined token to power a sidechain supported explicitly by the Bitcoin community, to make transactions smooth again?

(PS: Reading the last posts, isn't this exactly your idea @Wind_FURY?)


My last post is actually only about continuing miner incentives when all of the coins are mined. philipma1957 believes that there might be a situation when fees alone might not be enough to incentivize miners. I merely suggested a "miner-chain" merged-mined with Bitcoin to continue paying the miners through block rewards.

Your suggestion, to push out Ordinals from the Bitcoin blockchain to the miner-chain, made it better. Everyone will get what they want.
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