Winkelvoss ETP could become THE pricing mechanism for BTC - page 3.

NewLiberty

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Quote from: skivrmt on January 20, 2014, 10:00:12 AM

Quote from: molecular on January 20, 2014, 05:35:35 AM

Quote from: Lloydie on January 20, 2014, 03:24:59 AM

Quote from: hdbuck on January 19, 2014, 07:02:31 PM

Quote from: pening on January 19, 2014, 06:24:43 PM

Quote from: Praeconium on January 19, 2014, 04:59:42 PM

... wouldn't there be more benefit purely for ease of transactions if a public company would have all of its assets in Bitcoin, and issue shares against it?

Well done, you just described an exchange traded fund... Cheesy

soo, thats just a parallel market with no use of the BTC involved and without the possibility of withdrawing?! im not sure whats the purpose here.. Roll Eyes

The purpose is to allow retail investors and pension funds to invest in bitcoins as an asset class and not have to worry about where to buy it, when to buy it, how to store it and when to sell it.

The WBT will probably act as a one way trapdoor for Bitcoins, driving up the value of remaining Bitcoins on the market. And that is a very, very good thing.

I would never trust such a legal monster. It's a paper market and once (if) established as a pricing mechanism for BTC, it may even present a nice attack surface for price manipulation.

If you don't have exclusive access to the key, you don't own it.

Price manipulation? How? An ETF established through a US Stock Exchange is an ETF, whether dividend paying stocks or Bitcoin. GLD is a super popular Gold ETF. If you own this ETF, gold bullion is stored for you in a vault in London. Not going to be much different owning this bitcoin ETF. Bitcoins will be stored for you somewhere.

Price manipulation, yes. Imagine that. There are even some famous examples, but it happens daily.

Hunt Brothers?
GATA?

Here's a quick primer from Forbes:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2010/07/23/gold-etfs-and-the-manipulation-game/

Dragonkiller

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Quote from: skivrmt on January 20, 2014, 10:00:12 AM

Quote from: molecular on January 20, 2014, 05:35:35 AM

Quote from: Lloydie on January 20, 2014, 03:24:59 AM

Quote from: hdbuck on January 19, 2014, 07:02:31 PM

Quote from: pening on January 19, 2014, 06:24:43 PM

Quote from: Praeconium on January 19, 2014, 04:59:42 PM

... wouldn't there be more benefit purely for ease of transactions if a public company would have all of its assets in Bitcoin, and issue shares against it?

Well done, you just described an exchange traded fund... Cheesy

soo, thats just a parallel market with no use of the BTC involved and without the possibility of withdrawing?! im not sure whats the purpose here.. Roll Eyes

The purpose is to allow retail investors and pension funds to invest in bitcoins as an asset class and not have to worry about where to buy it, when to buy it, how to store it and when to sell it.

The WBT will probably act as a one way trapdoor for Bitcoins, driving up the value of remaining Bitcoins on the market. And that is a very, very good thing.

I would never trust such a legal monster. It's a paper market and once (if) established as a pricing mechanism for BTC, it may even present a nice attack surface for price manipulation.

If you don't have exclusive access to the key, you don't own it.

Price manipulation? How? An ETF established through a US Stock Exchange is an ETF, whether dividend paying stocks or Bitcoin. GLD is a super popular Gold ETF. If you own this ETF, gold bullion is stored for you in a vault in London. Not going to be much different owning this bitcoin ETF. Bitcoins will be stored for you somewhere.

at what ratio though? how many claims to one bitcoin? and if it came to it, they can always settle in cash. it's a good way to get exposure to the price of bitcoin, but it's not the same as having your own private keys.

skivrmt

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Quote from: molecular on January 20, 2014, 05:35:35 AM

Quote from: Lloydie on January 20, 2014, 03:24:59 AM

Quote from: hdbuck on January 19, 2014, 07:02:31 PM

Quote from: pening on January 19, 2014, 06:24:43 PM

Quote from: Praeconium on January 19, 2014, 04:59:42 PM

... wouldn't there be more benefit purely for ease of transactions if a public company would have all of its assets in Bitcoin, and issue shares against it?

Well done, you just described an exchange traded fund... Cheesy

soo, thats just a parallel market with no use of the BTC involved and without the possibility of withdrawing?! im not sure whats the purpose here.. Roll Eyes

The purpose is to allow retail investors and pension funds to invest in bitcoins as an asset class and not have to worry about where to buy it, when to buy it, how to store it and when to sell it.

The WBT will probably act as a one way trapdoor for Bitcoins, driving up the value of remaining Bitcoins on the market. And that is a very, very good thing.

I would never trust such a legal monster. It's a paper market and once (if) established as a pricing mechanism for BTC, it may even present a nice attack surface for price manipulation.

If you don't have exclusive access to the key, you don't own it.

Price manipulation? How? An ETF established through a US Stock Exchange is an ETF, whether dividend paying stocks or Bitcoin. GLD is a super popular Gold ETF. If you own this ETF, gold bullion is stored for you in a vault in London. Not going to be much different owning this bitcoin ETF. Bitcoins will be stored for you somewhere.

kwest

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Considering the Winklevii hold approximately 1% of all bitcoins, they would (logically) want bitcoin's price to rise.. I assume that's their goal with the ETF. As such I'm sure they will do whatever it takes to achieve that outcome, and prevent a devaluation.

Lloydie

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Quote from: molecular on January 20, 2014, 05:35:35 AM

Quote from: Lloydie on January 20, 2014, 03:24:59 AM

The purpose is to allow retail investors and pension funds to invest in bitcoins as an asset class and not have to worry about where to buy it, when to buy it, how to store it and when to sell it.

The WBT will probably act as a one way trapdoor for Bitcoins, driving up the value of remaining Bitcoins on the market. And that is a very, very good thing.

I would never trust such a legal monster. It's a paper market and once (if) established as a pricing mechanism for BTC, it may even present a nice attack surface for price manipulation.

If you don't have exclusive access to the key, you don't own it.

More than that the WBT will charge annual fees. As you have computer talent, you should definitely avoid the fund but for the rest of humanity, they are probably safer with the fund.

I don't see how manipulation can take place unless the WBT lends out the btcs that they own. However, it's not smart to bet against a deflationary asset. The kind of manipulation that might take place is the WBT sucking up btcs. That I really don't think any of us would mind.

molecular

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Quote from: Lloydie on January 20, 2014, 03:24:59 AM

Quote from: hdbuck on January 19, 2014, 07:02:31 PM

Quote from: pening on January 19, 2014, 06:24:43 PM

Quote from: Praeconium on January 19, 2014, 04:59:42 PM

... wouldn't there be more benefit purely for ease of transactions if a public company would have all of its assets in Bitcoin, and issue shares against it?

Well done, you just described an exchange traded fund... Cheesy

soo, thats just a parallel market with no use of the BTC involved and without the possibility of withdrawing?! im not sure whats the purpose here.. Roll Eyes

The purpose is to allow retail investors and pension funds to invest in bitcoins as an asset class and not have to worry about where to buy it, when to buy it, how to store it and when to sell it.

The WBT will probably act as a one way trapdoor for Bitcoins, driving up the value of remaining Bitcoins on the market. And that is a very, very good thing.

I would never trust such a legal monster. It's a paper market and once (if) established as a pricing mechanism for BTC, it may even present a nice attack surface for price manipulation.

If you don't have exclusive access to the key, you don't own it.

Lloydie

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Quote from: hdbuck on January 19, 2014, 07:02:31 PM

Quote from: pening on January 19, 2014, 06:24:43 PM

Quote from: Praeconium on January 19, 2014, 04:59:42 PM

... wouldn't there be more benefit purely for ease of transactions if a public company would have all of its assets in Bitcoin, and issue shares against it?

Well done, you just described an exchange traded fund... Cheesy

soo, thats just a parallel market with no use of the BTC involved and without the possibility of withdrawing?! im not sure whats the purpose here.. Roll Eyes

The purpose is to allow retail investors and pension funds to invest in bitcoins as an asset class and not have to worry about where to buy it, when to buy it, how to store it and when to sell it.

The WBT will probably act as a one way trapdoor for Bitcoins, driving up the value of remaining Bitcoins on the market. And that is a very, very good thing.

hdbuck

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Quote from: pening on January 19, 2014, 06:24:43 PM

Quote from: Praeconium on January 19, 2014, 04:59:42 PM

... wouldn't there be more benefit purely for ease of transactions if a public company would have all of its assets in Bitcoin, and issue shares against it?

Well done, you just described an exchange traded fund... Cheesy

soo, thats just a parallel market with no use of the BTC involved and without the possibility of withdrawing?! im not sure whats the purpose here.. Roll Eyes

pening

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Quote from: Praeconium on January 19, 2014, 04:59:42 PM

... wouldn't there be more benefit purely for ease of transactions if a public company would have all of its assets in Bitcoin, and issue shares against it?

Well done, you just described an exchange traded fund... Cheesy

Praeconium

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Quote from: skivrmt on January 19, 2014, 04:24:28 PM

Quote from: aminorex on January 18, 2014, 06:30:57 PM

Quote from: Praeconium on January 18, 2014, 05:13:28 PM

Lawyer for Winkelvoss Twins’ Bitcoin ETF Says SEC Review Going Smoothly
http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/01/17/lawyer-for-winkelvoss-twins-bitcoin-etf-says-sec-review-going-smoothly/

Very nice observation Greg, however do You think that such fund could be opened on any other reputable exchange and have similar effect or ETF-like investing is predominantly US style?

Loads of ETPs in London, this much I know.

There are exchange traded funds (ETF's) on many exchanges around the world. Most are traded on the American Stock Exchange or the New York Stock exchange. My guess is if and when this ETF gets approved, it will stabilize the price, but it'll also be "over priced" vs. the real price of a Bitcoin.

Since they will be first to the market on an easy access way to trade Bitcoins (yes, arguments on other "easy" ways to own/trade), I think it'll trade above its net asset value (NAV), especially in the beginning. Many ETF's trade above their NAV and its not all that uncommon.

This was my point exactly ETFs are found mostly in developed world, and its not that easy for people of developing countries to trade in US, although its very much possible.

But ETFs regulation present problem on their own, wouldn't there be more benefit purely for ease of transactions if a public company would have all of its assets in Bitcoin, and issue shares against it? Although this may not be allowed in US, a it may be done elsewhere and list its shares on US stock exchanges, or at least those that are easy enough to invest for US citizen.

What actual benefits would a fund bring compared to regular shares for a fixed amount of btc?

skivrmt

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Quote from: aminorex on January 18, 2014, 06:30:57 PM

Quote from: Praeconium on January 18, 2014, 05:13:28 PM

Lawyer for Winkelvoss Twins’ Bitcoin ETF Says SEC Review Going Smoothly
http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/01/17/lawyer-for-winkelvoss-twins-bitcoin-etf-says-sec-review-going-smoothly/

Very nice observation Greg, however do You think that such fund could be opened on any other reputable exchange and have similar effect or ETF-like investing is predominantly US style?

Loads of ETPs in London, this much I know.

There are exchange traded funds (ETF's) on many exchanges around the world. Most are traded on the American Stock Exchange or the New York Stock exchange. My guess is if and when this ETF gets approved, it will stabilize the price, but it'll also be "over priced" vs. the real price of a Bitcoin.

Since they will be first to the market on an easy access way to trade Bitcoins (yes, arguments on other "easy" ways to own/trade), I think it'll trade above its net asset value (NAV), especially in the beginning. Many ETF's trade above their NAV and its not all that uncommon.

BitDreams

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Will a Bitcoin trust help to stabilize prices? I believe so.

aminorex

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Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: Praeconium on January 18, 2014, 05:13:28 PM

Lawyer for Winkelvoss Twins’ Bitcoin ETF Says SEC Review Going Smoothly
http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/01/17/lawyer-for-winkelvoss-twins-bitcoin-etf-says-sec-review-going-smoothly/

Very nice observation Greg, however do You think that such fund could be opened on any other reputable exchange and have similar effect or ETF-like investing is predominantly US style?

Loads of ETPs in London, this much I know.

aminorex

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Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: ?? on ??

Yes think it would be much easier to speculate with, instead of exchanges without even taking into consideration how unreliable exchanges have become. The term ETP is annoying to me for some reason.

I think it will drive interest rates on bitfinex down close to rates typical of margin lending at brokerages, because you can lever BTC via the ETP.

Praeconium

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Lawyer for Winkelvoss Twins’ Bitcoin ETF Says SEC Review Going Smoothly
http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/01/17/lawyer-for-winkelvoss-twins-bitcoin-etf-says-sec-review-going-smoothly/

Very nice observation Greg, however do You think that such fund could be opened on any other reputable exchange and have similar effect or ETF-like investing is predominantly US style?

TheButterZone

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RIP Mommy

One hopes it will, and that BTC stabilize at no less than $1,000 per.

felente

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Quote from: NewLiberty on July 17, 2013, 10:21:25 PM

...
I hope it manages to make it through the regulatory hurdles, and I suspect that it will.

im almost sure it will. im just not sure that i hope for...
hm... don't know... don't know...

NewLiberty

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Quote from: felente on July 17, 2013, 01:31:34 PM

Quote from: DrGregMulhauser on July 17, 2013, 05:26:32 AM

Quote from: ProfMac on July 17, 2013, 05:02:43 AM

How can I tell my daughter why it is a good idea to buy into this when a mechanism is visible to remove value, and none is visible to increase it?

It's like any ETF: the fees are only worth paying if you place a value higher than the fees on whatever benefits the ETF might be offering. In this particular case, some people might like the liquidity, some people might like being able to hold it in a brokerage account, some people might like to hold it in a retirement account where the funds are otherwise unavailable to them, etc. For many people who are already fully capable of buying Bitcoins directly, I don't think there's much advantage at all.

exactly THIS is the main problem.
we should not tell our daughters to buy into "this". we should teach them to deal with bitcoins directly.

trying to adopt bitcoin to be convenient as a sofa is a big mistake. then there will be no mind evolution, no financial revolution, nothing. anything stays where it is.

anyone who understands bitcoins true potential and designation, should try to go and develop "other" way, no matter how inconvenient it should be.

I wonder about this sometimes. I don't think everyone has to understand it, and I don't think it can ever become ubiquitous if mind evolutions are required for everyone. That ubiquitousness will get you your financial revolutions and true potentials even if some people remain baffled about what is going on around them. There is good value toward your goals in making things easier.
While I agree about helping our daughters deal with bitcoins directly, that is because we care about our daughters personally enough to go through that effort for them. A lot of folks that have credit cards don't really understand those either. There is a place in the economy for a WBT ETF. It just may be that most of us here won't be that place, but there are those that do want it. If I can put this ETF in a retirement account that I can't put actual bitcoins into, then that might be a really great thing. I hope it manages to make it through the regulatory hurdles, and I suspect that it will.

wachtwoord

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Quote from: felente on July 17, 2013, 05:00:19 PM

Quote from: wachtwoord on July 17, 2013, 04:34:07 PM

...The risks of them losing them are so much higher than the potential profit they might make.

With ETF's this problem doesn't exist...

what do you meant under "risks" losing bitcoins (directly)?
what problem doesn't exist with ETFs?

Quote from: wachtwoord on July 16, 2013, 10:36:54 AM

Quote from: cryptoanarchist on July 16, 2013, 10:21:39 AM

Quote from: wachtwoord on July 16, 2013, 06:14:44 AM

They're 100% backed.

Holy fucking christ, there sure are some naive people on here. Please read some fucking history. Or tell you what, I'll sell you shares of my bitcoins - 5% off!!

They are 100% backed.

it's you again?

Both the risk of losing the private keys to your own Bitcoins and leaking the private keys to others, allowing them to take them.

Yes it's me again. Do you still not understand this is 100% backed?

felente

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Quote from: wachtwoord on July 17, 2013, 04:34:07 PM

...The risks of them losing them are so much higher than the potential profit they might make.

With ETF's this problem doesn't exist...

what do you meant under "risks" losing bitcoins (directly)?
what problem doesn't exist with ETFs?

Quote from: wachtwoord on July 16, 2013, 10:36:54 AM

Quote from: cryptoanarchist on July 16, 2013, 10:21:39 AM

Quote from: wachtwoord on July 16, 2013, 06:14:44 AM

They're 100% backed.

Holy fucking christ, there sure are some naive people on here. Please read some fucking history. Or tell you what, I'll sell you shares of my bitcoins - 5% off!!

They are 100% backed.

it's you again?

Topic: Winkelvoss ETP could become THE pricing mechanism for BTC - page 3. (Read 15389 times)