CDC Says Natural Immunity Outperformed Vaccines Against Delta Strain
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-says-natural-immunity-outperformed-vaccines-against-delta-strain/ar-AASWPCZ
So if the CDC is now admitting that natural immunity provided better protection than the vaccines alone, why are governments, corporations, and organizations still pushing vaccine mandates on people and sports figures who have already had Covid? Why are people losing their jobs who have already had Covid? 🤡🤡🤡🤡
Topic: [WO/Hat-Gang Only - MODERATED] The fucking COVID vax thread (No hat? Fuck off!) - page 4. (Read 7327 times)
February 04, 2022, 01:52:58 PM
February 04, 2022, 12:50:11 PM
Do you have definitive proof that they weren't? This argument goes both ways.
That's not how burden of proof works. The person making the claim, i.e. you, should provide proof instead of demanding that I run around your constantly moving goalposts and do your work for you. I gave you the data on excess deaths. You dismissed it "because CDC" but forgot to post the non-CDC uber-reliable and trustworthy data showing otherwise.
February 04, 2022, 11:44:22 AM
So if a person died in a motorcycle crash and tested positive for Covid, we have no idea how they recorded that. They could have recorded the death once for blunt force trauma, and recorded it again separately as a Covid death.
Meanwhile we know for certain, at least for our country (.ch), that this was counted as covid case and later on as covid death. That's not even a matter of dispute anymore.
This fact has been admitted by officials in the last weeks (no, not on telegram, on official channels like national TV etc.). As an advanced conspiracy terrorist I have to assume this to be the case for other countries as well.
That's something Malone mentioned in the Rogan podcast and instead of crying foul and wining like little babies, the vaccists could take Malone to court and prove him wrong. Now guess why he is still not charged yet??
Also they (=our gubbermint) refused until today to count vaccinated infections against non-vaccinated (when it still accounted to something and delta was going through the care homes). They say they lack the means to...
As for motivation: there have been financial incentives to report someone as covid case rather than a victim of a shooting.
February 04, 2022, 11:33:40 AM
I don't even have to say that, because everyone knows by now that they are incentivized to do so.
There is also a great incentive for me to rob a bank but it doesn't mean that I'd do it.
Do you have actual proof that the excess deaths didn't exist and were just fake/double-counted COVID deaths?
Do you have definitive proof that they weren't? This argument goes both ways.
You're placing your trust in Govt and Big Pharma, who have had ulterior motives through this entire debacle.
February 04, 2022, 11:27:29 AM
I don't even have to say that, because everyone knows by now that they are incentivized to do so.
There is also a great incentive for me to rob a bank but it doesn't mean that I'd do it.
Do you have actual proof that the excess deaths didn't exist and were just fake/double-counted COVID deaths?
February 04, 2022, 11:15:06 AM
Yes, I know your next argument (being very generous here) would be "how do we know that" states and funeral homes and doctors aren't all in on the conspiracy.
I don't even have to say that, because everyone knows by now that they are incentivized to do so.
https://truthtellernl.wordpress.com/2021/12/30/governments-bounty-on-your-life-hospitals-incentive-payments-for-covid-19-are-about-100k-per-covid-patient/
https://www.cnet.com/personal-finance/covid-funeral-reimbursement-now-9000-heres-how-to-apply-today/
February 04, 2022, 11:03:38 AM
How do we even know that? How do we know they didn't have duplicate entry for Covid associated fatalities? The mortality data for Covid is published by the CDC, an entity that is already criminally suspect at best.
The CDC doesn't create the data. It collects data from states. If there was any significant discrepancy in the way you're suggesting, it would be very obvious.
Yes, I know your next argument (being very generous here) would be "how do we know that" states and funeral homes and doctors aren't all in on the conspiracy.
February 04, 2022, 10:55:12 AM
If all the data is flawed then w t f is everyone arguing about?
Hilarious
Hilarious Well, you bring up a great point. And frankly I'm all for throwing out all the data, because it's all flawed as far as I'm concerned.
How about we use our eyes and see what is happening around us? And perhaps use our common sense?
I mean, how much more proof do people need that these vaccines aren't even preventing serious infection and illness?
'80% of serious COVID cases are fully vaccinated' says Ichilov hospital director
Vaccine has "no significance regarding severe illness," says Prof. Yaakov Jerris.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/321674
Quote
“Right now, most of our severe cases are vaccinated,” Jerris told Channel 13 News. “They had at least three injections. Between seventy and eighty percent of the serious cases are vaccinated. So, the vaccine has no significance regarding severe illness, which is why just twenty to twenty-five percent of our patients are unvaccinated.”
Jerris also revealed some of the confusion in reporting cases. Speaking at a cabinet meeting on Sunday, he told ministers, “Defining a serious patient is problematic. For example, a patient with a chronic lung disease always had a low level of oxygen, but now he has a positive coronavirus test result which technically makes him a ‘serious coronavirus patient,’ but that’s not accurate. The patient is only in a difficult condition because he has a serious underlying illness.”
Jerris also revealed some of the confusion in reporting cases. Speaking at a cabinet meeting on Sunday, he told ministers, “Defining a serious patient is problematic. For example, a patient with a chronic lung disease always had a low level of oxygen, but now he has a positive coronavirus test result which technically makes him a ‘serious coronavirus patient,’ but that’s not accurate. The patient is only in a difficult condition because he has a serious underlying illness.”
February 04, 2022, 10:46:14 AM
Suchmoon's argument hinges on the idea that mortality data during the 2020 year period was recorded completely accurately.
How do we even know that? How do we know they didn't have double entry for Covid associated fatalities? The mortality data for Covid is published by the CDC, an entity that is already criminally suspect at best.
We already know that some deaths that were completely unrelated to Covid were counted as Covid deaths:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/19/sharyl_attkisson_serious_questions_about_the_way_covid_deaths_have_been_counted.html
How do we even know that? How do we know they didn't have double entry for Covid associated fatalities? The mortality data for Covid is published by the CDC, an entity that is already criminally suspect at best.
We already know that some deaths that were completely unrelated to Covid were counted as Covid deaths:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/19/sharyl_attkisson_serious_questions_about_the_way_covid_deaths_have_been_counted.html
Quote
The same time Colorado’s coroners were challenging the death count, Dr. Deborah Birx of the White House Coronavirus Task Force was being asked about the same thing.
Birx (April 7, 2020): The intent is right now, that if someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.
Some of the eyebrow-raising examples of deaths attributed to covid include— Fatalities after traffic accidents, three Colorado nursing home deaths, even though the attending physicians said they weren’t related to coronavirus.
And a case in Nashville, Tennessee. In August 2020, Hal Short’s wife was stunned to see Covid-19 named as the cause on her husband’s death certificate— after he died of an aggressive cancer. He’d tested negative for coronavirus three times. Only after the family complained, was Covid-19 removed a clerical error blamed.
Birx (April 7, 2020): The intent is right now, that if someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.
Some of the eyebrow-raising examples of deaths attributed to covid include— Fatalities after traffic accidents, three Colorado nursing home deaths, even though the attending physicians said they weren’t related to coronavirus.
And a case in Nashville, Tennessee. In August 2020, Hal Short’s wife was stunned to see Covid-19 named as the cause on her husband’s death certificate— after he died of an aggressive cancer. He’d tested negative for coronavirus three times. Only after the family complained, was Covid-19 removed a clerical error blamed.
If all the data is flawed then w t f is everyone arguing about?
Hilarious February 04, 2022, 10:41:32 AM
Suchmoon's argument hinges on the idea that mortality data during the 2020 year period was recorded completely accurately.
How do we even know that? How do we know they didn't have duplicate entry for Covid associated fatalities? The mortality data for Covid is published by the CDC, an entity that is already criminally suspect at best.
We already know that some deaths that were completely unrelated to Covid were counted as Covid deaths:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/19/sharyl_attkisson_serious_questions_about_the_way_covid_deaths_have_been_counted.html
So if a person died in a motorcycle crash and tested positive for Covid, we have no idea how they recorded that. They could have recorded the death once for blunt force trauma, and recorded it again separately as a Covid death.
How do we even know that? How do we know they didn't have duplicate entry for Covid associated fatalities? The mortality data for Covid is published by the CDC, an entity that is already criminally suspect at best.
We already know that some deaths that were completely unrelated to Covid were counted as Covid deaths:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/19/sharyl_attkisson_serious_questions_about_the_way_covid_deaths_have_been_counted.html
Quote
The same time Colorado’s coroners were challenging the death count, Dr. Deborah Birx of the White House Coronavirus Task Force was being asked about the same thing.
Birx (April 7, 2020): The intent is right now, that if someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.
Some of the eyebrow-raising examples of deaths attributed to covid include— Fatalities after traffic accidents, three Colorado nursing home deaths, even though the attending physicians said they weren’t related to coronavirus.
And a case in Nashville, Tennessee. In August 2020, Hal Short’s wife was stunned to see Covid-19 named as the cause on her husband’s death certificate— after he died of an aggressive cancer. He’d tested negative for coronavirus three times. Only after the family complained, was Covid-19 removed a clerical error blamed.
Birx (April 7, 2020): The intent is right now, that if someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death.
Some of the eyebrow-raising examples of deaths attributed to covid include— Fatalities after traffic accidents, three Colorado nursing home deaths, even though the attending physicians said they weren’t related to coronavirus.
And a case in Nashville, Tennessee. In August 2020, Hal Short’s wife was stunned to see Covid-19 named as the cause on her husband’s death certificate— after he died of an aggressive cancer. He’d tested negative for coronavirus three times. Only after the family complained, was Covid-19 removed a clerical error blamed.
So if a person died in a motorcycle crash and tested positive for Covid, we have no idea how they recorded that. They could have recorded the death once for blunt force trauma, and recorded it again separately as a Covid death.
February 04, 2022, 12:02:01 AM
non-COVID tests and checkups were delayed and people died from other causes, which were not detected in time.
There might have been some of that but it wouldn't match the COVID-19 numbers and waves if there was a significant increase of deaths elsewhere.
At any rate, mortality data is publicly available (e.g. on the CDC site) so you should be able to find such anomalies if they exist.
February 03, 2022, 11:13:04 PM
I don't know, I don't want to get too conspiratorial either, but the other day I saw Rand Paul talking about the same thing: that the statistics had been inflated by including as Covid cases and Covid deaths completely asymptomatic people who had been admitted to hospitals, etc. for other causes.
Excess death numbers matched or exceeded reported COVID-19 deaths throughout 2020-2021, and also matched the spikes. This means that if COVID-19 numbers were inflated, these people still died of something that they wouldn't have died of otherwise... so is there another pandemic that we don't know about?
Well, I've already said that I don't want to get too conspiranoid, but I think it's a fallacy to think that if there was an excess of deaths, it was due to another pandemic (even if said sarcastically). The excess deaths can be partly explained by COVID, partly due to hospital overcrowding, which meant that non-COVID tests and checkups were delayed and people died from other causes, which were not detected in time.
February 03, 2022, 05:45:53 PM
Where i live, the 2020 (and 2021) death rate was reported higher because people didn't go to the hospital or doctor because they where overrun (the hospitals) or the people were in fear. "I'll go let it check by the doc at some later time.." This led to undiscovered or late discovered health problems like cancer, heart conditions or preconditions, which were not addressed at all or got discovered too late. Addtionally, there were less free ICU's (and those were prioritized for Covid patients), operations were cancelled or delayed, mostly transplantations.
A combination that led to many deaths, which could have been avoided or delayed, leading to some kind of "Secondary Triage".
A combination that led to many deaths, which could have been avoided or delayed, leading to some kind of "Secondary Triage".
February 03, 2022, 05:16:21 PM
Comorbidities don't make the numbers false.
Actually they do, if you misreport the actual underlying cause completely wrong to boost the numbers. Slap a Covid positive test on nearly every death, and then death by Covid arbitrarily becomes "the defacto reason".
Again, the numbers couldn't be "boosted" without creating a mismatch with excess deaths, and there is no such mismatch so your hypothesis here is fundamentally incorrect.
Again, take a look at the excess deaths and try to explain that away without resorting to fallacies. Number of excess deaths in 2020 in the US was actually higher than the official COVID-19 death count so if anything the COVID-19 numbers were possibly under-reported.
Well, we didn't have all those people taking the Covid vaccines in previous years. And suicides, overdoses, homicides, etc. were way up too. So....lol.
LOL indeed - there were no COVID vaccines in 2020. And I doubt that "suicides, overdoses, homicides, etc" were reported as COVID-19 comorbidities to any significant extent but feel free to prove otherwise.
February 03, 2022, 03:56:21 PM
Comorbidities don't make the numbers false.
Actually they do, if you misreport the actual underlying cause completely wrong to boost the numbers. Slap a Covid positive test on nearly every death, and then death by Covid arbitrarily becomes "the defacto reason".
Again, take a look at the excess deaths and try to explain that away without resorting to fallacies. Number of excess deaths in 2020 in the US was actually higher than the official COVID-19 death count so if anything the COVID-19 numbers were possibly under-reported.
Well, we didn't have all those people taking the Covid vaccines in previous years. And suicides, overdoses, homicides, etc. were way up too. So....lol.
Anyway, I'm done debating for now.
February 03, 2022, 02:52:47 PM
You mean kinda like claiming that 385,000 deaths in 2020 were caused by Covid infection is false, because 94% of them had 1-4 comorbidities?
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf
No, not "like". Comorbidities don't make the numbers false. For example among some types of cancer, deaths come with 80%+ comorbidities. That doesn't mean cancer deaths are overstated. People die with otherwise manageable chronic conditions because cancer (or COVID-19) kills then, not because those comorbidities suddenly for no reason whatsover kill them. Same when people die of conditions caused by cancer (or by COVID-19, such as pneumonia). It's still cancer (or COVID-19) that killed them.
There is always a margin of error but it's nowhere near 18000 vs 9 and it may go both ways, so not "like" at all.
Again, take a look at the excess deaths and try to explain that away without resorting to fallacies. Number of excess deaths in 2020 in the US was actually higher than the official COVID-19 death count so if anything the COVID-19 numbers were possibly under-reported.
February 03, 2022, 02:00:01 PM
Being not fit for a certain purpose doesn't make it true or false. It's just not fit for a certain purpose. However claiming or implying that VAERS shows 18,000 deaths caused by the vaccines is false, because VAERS doesn't and can't show such a thing.
You mean kinda like claiming that 385,000 deaths in 2020 were caused by Covid infection is false, because 94% of them had 1-4 comorbidities?
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf
February 03, 2022, 01:32:12 PM
I don't know, I don't want to get too conspiratorial either, but the other day I saw Rand Paul talking about the same thing: that the statistics had been inflated by including as Covid cases and Covid deaths completely asymptomatic people who had been admitted to hospitals, etc. for other causes.
Excess death numbers matched or exceeded reported COVID-19 deaths throughout 2020-2021, and also matched the spikes. This means that if COVID-19 numbers were inflated, these people still died of something that they wouldn't have died of otherwise... so is there another pandemic that we don't know about?
Quote from: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-raw-death-count-single-series?country=~USA
OK, look:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356756711_Latest_statistics_on_England_mortality_data_suggest_systematic_mis-categorisation_of_vaccine_status_and_uncertain_effectiveness_of_Covid-19_vaccination
Effectively, look for the following aspects of this study:
1. You die within 14 days after the first vaccine shot (not Covid) you die "unvaccinated without Covid"
2. You die within 14 days after second shot (not Covid), you die "not fully vaccinated without Covid"
Look at the charts until it klicks
EDIT: These relations show up in statistics all over the world. Coincidence?
February 03, 2022, 12:53:43 PM
Except it has been:
As of January 27, 2022, more than 18.1 million doses of the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine have been given in the United States. [...] identified nine deaths that have been caused by or were directly attributed to TTS following J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccination.
That's out of ~12000 (not 18000) reported to VAERS.
You have convinced me; I'm out of any reason I can think of as to why we can use VAERS data to determine vaccine deaths, I'll agree with you there.
That's why I know these 9 deaths can not have been determined due to an adverse vaccine event from the 12,000 VAERS reports;
- That number can not be determined, by their own admission, yet they state it matter of fact;
- This is intentional deceit, which means I can not trust the article;
- Video from a previous post shows the reported covid death totals can not be trusted either, a second deceitful act by said organization;
- Why would they intentionally try to deceive me and falsify/pad/incorrectly label the numbers of deaths in multiple areas?
February 03, 2022, 12:09:31 PM
1. It can detect patterns of adverse events, but can not be used to to determine if adverse events occur? This is GIGO (Garbage in, Garbage out). Either the entire system is useless, or the data is valid (mostly valid? whatever sliding scale you'd like to use) => may, or may not be valid...
It's not all or nothing. There are uses for the data but not for determining the number of deaths caused by the vaccines. The disclaimer quite clearly describes the data being used by CDC as signals for further investigation.
2. The statement "VAERS shows 18,000 people died" is a true statement. Did 18,000 people actually die? Maybe; maybe more, maybe less. VAERS is limited, but that doesn't make it inherently false.
Being not fit for a certain purpose doesn't make it true or false. It's just not fit for a certain purpose. However claiming or implying that VAERS shows 18,000 deaths caused by the vaccines is false, because VAERS doesn't and can't show such a thing.
Has anyone with access to the Gov, updated version invalidated the claims made by "conspiritards"? Or do you use a blanket statement that contradicts itself to "debunk" it? The updated data is there, why hasn't it been shared?
Except it has been:
As of January 27, 2022, more than 18.1 million doses of the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine have been given in the United States. [...] identified nine deaths that have been caused by or were directly attributed to TTS following J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccination.
That's out of ~12000 (not 18000) reported to VAERS.
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