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Topic: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? - page 4. (Read 38029 times)

legendary
Activity: 1260
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Quote
I hope Core replies with a 2MB/Segwit hard fork. It seems like a clever piece of technology. But I wasn't talking about Segwit. Segwit will only get us so far.

Is there any possibility, has there been any suggestion, that this could actually happen?
hero member
Activity: 546
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Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
Huh?  The bitcoin blocks are still valid bitcoin blocks when segwit is deployed.  Transactions with a segregated witness will have the signature in a separate chain, but this does not change the validity of the block. The blocks and the transactions in the blocks are perfectly valid to all nodes.

This is completely wrong. The segregated tx's are absolutely invalid to present nodes. A nasty hack to make them appear as "I dont know what to do with this, so I will assume its valid" does not mean a tx is valid. They will remain UNVALIDATED by nodes that are not upgraded.
No, it is correct.  Transactions with a segregated witness will be completely valid to present nodes.  They will look like a normal "anyonecanpay" transaction.  

Are they "anyonecanpay" transactions?  Yes or No? Of course they are not.

If they are not, then how can you say "they have been validated"?  The transaction has been misrepresented, it is something completely different to what the node thinks it is, yet you maintain that as correct.   Nodes will essentially be SPV clients with respect to segwit transactions. That is the fraud of this so-called "soft-fork" plan. Which, of course, has already been discredited by Peter Todd.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1013
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC
Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.
According to "ShadowOfHarbinger" it was released days ago, but he is full of crap and might be lying.

You mean the statement he linked to: "Source code is out there. Binaries/release soon." ?

I'm not sure what to say. Looks pretty unambiguous to me.
When the source code is out, it is released.  You don't need binaries for that.

This is getting beyond stupid. But I used to respect you so I'll play along.

The entire quote:

"#Bitcoin Classic tree tagged for the first beta ("classic-0.11.2.b1")
Source code is out there. Binaries/release soon."


Most people will wait until the final binaries are released.

hmmpfff..... not really the point, but:

https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/website/issues/3

Look! They have 288, Core has 136!

That was useful.
Except the people on this issue are mostly unnamed shills, not named identifiable people.

Ok, now we're back to the "quality" of the backers. Then show me the heavy hitters!

Few big players have voiced support for Core. At least I couldn't find many, maybe you see something I can't see (sry, there's bitmynt). Exchanges like Huobi, Bitfinex and Kraken are probably waiting to see which side of the net the ball lands.
Or they just don't care about the drama, and will stick with standard bitcoin.
Whatever standard bitcoin will be.
Standard bitcoin is well defined in Satoshi's paper.  Diversion from consensus is not allowed.  Only bugfixes and more restrictions have been allowed, and Satoshi did many of those himself.

"They vote with their CPU power, expressing their acceptance of
valid blocks by working on extending them and rejecting invalid blocks by refusing to work on
them. Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this consensus mechanism."


I am glad we agree.

Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.
The source has been released, and this means the software has been released.  Don't fool yourself.

Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.

If a majority of miners do it, they will do it again just for the fun of it.  The coins will be worthless anyway.
You can't be serious? If that's not a joke it's the worst "slippery slope" argument I've ever heard.
I have tried to get an answer to what I think is the biggest problem here many times, but you keep ignoring it:
SPV wallets, which most people use, will connect to a random fork and spend and receive conins on a random chain every time they connect. What do you think the users loosing coins due to this will do?  Run to buy coins from the chanfork which is mos popular this week, or get the f out of Bitcoin before it is too late?

The reason why so many fork supporters run a full node is obvious: If the fork happens, there is no other way to be sure to use the correct altcoin than by running a full node supporting the altcoin they want to use, and not even that will work if the standard bitcoin fork comes back ahead of their altchain.  Yes, the coins will become worthless.  People use bitcoin as a currency for transactions and storage of value, not for the drama.  When the coins can't be used reliably without keeping up with the drama, people are going to jump ship.
You're welcome to call Bitcoin Classic/XT/Unlimited an altcoin if you want.  It does make it difficult to take your call for less drama serious though. I just hope you make it clear to your customers that you're selling coins from an obsolete husk of the Core project when the time comes.
I do make it very clear that I sell Bitcoin and no altcoins.  I always did.  I link to bitcoin.org in my FAQ.

I'm sure there'll be plenty of time to argue semantics when you're in front of the judge if a fork should happen. It's not obvious that everyone will agree with your terminology.

I don't know what will be done to SPVs if it gets as far as you seem to believe. I'll leave that to people smarter than me. But I do know that these technical difficulties are far more manageable than trying to recoup the lost competitive advantage if we allow Bitcoin to be held back until Core is done with their "Roadmap". You're from Norway, so you must know the dangers of relying on technology that doesn't exist yet. Do you remember "The Norwegian Moon Landing" at Mongstad?
When Core is done with their roadmap, the SPV problem will at least be solved by the fraud proofs included in the segwit proposal.  This makes the world a bit safer for SPV wallets.  Segwit has a testnet, and works, btw.  Many wallets have it implemented already.  You are welcome to test it.  Join #segwit-dev on Freenode to discuss.

I hope Core replies with a 2MB/Segwit hard fork. It seems like a clever piece of technology. But I wasn't talking about Segwit. Segwit will only get us so far.
legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
Huh?  The bitcoin blocks are still valid bitcoin blocks when segwit is deployed.  Transactions with a segregated witness will have the signature in a separate chain, but this does not change the validity of the block. The blocks and the transactions in the blocks are perfectly valid to all nodes.

This is completely wrong. The segregated tx's are absolutely invalid to present nodes. A nasty hack to make them appear as "I dont know what to do with this, so I will assume its valid" does not mean a tx is valid. They will remain UNVALIDATED by nodes that are not upgraded.
No, it is correct.  Transactions with a segregated witness will be completely valid to present nodes.  They will look like a normal "anyonecanpay" transaction.  Non-upgraded nodes will not generate special segwit addresses, and therefore will not receive transactions to segwit addresses.  They are just transactions to other people which you don't have the private key to.  You can't import those addresses to an old wallet either.  But transactions to segwit addresses will still be recorded by old nodes, and included in their UTXO set.

Very old nodes cannot fully validate all constraints in any recent block, because they don't know about them.  This has always been the case.  Still the blocks are perfectly valid to all nodes.  In case of a hard forking change, the new blocks will not be valid to older nodes.  Segregated witness is not a hard forking change.

Try it out yourself.  The testnet is open.
legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.
According to "ShadowOfHarbinger" it was released days ago, but he is full of crap and might be lying.

You mean the statement he linked to: "Source code is out there. Binaries/release soon." ?

I'm not sure what to say. Looks pretty unambiguous to me.
When the source code is out, it is released.  You don't need binaries for that.

hmmpfff..... not really the point, but:

https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/website/issues/3

Look! They have 288, Core has 136!

That was useful.
Except the people on this issue are mostly unnamed shills, not named identifiable people.

Few big players have voiced support for Core. At least I couldn't find many, maybe you see something I can't see (sry, there's bitmynt). Exchanges like Huobi, Bitfinex and Kraken are probably waiting to see which side of the net the ball lands.
Or they just don't care about the drama, and will stick with standard bitcoin.
Whatever standard bitcoin will be.
Standard bitcoin is well defined in Satoshi's paper.  Diversion from consensus is not allowed.  Only bugfixes and more restrictions have been allowed, and Satoshi did many of those himself.

Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.
The source has been released, and this means the software has been released.  Don't fool yourself.

If a majority of miners do it, they will do it again just for the fun of it.  The coins will be worthless anyway.
You can't be serious? If that's not a joke it's the worst "slippery slope" argument I've ever heard.
I have tried to get an answer to what I think is the biggest problem here many times, but you keep ignoring it:
SPV wallets, which most people use, will connect to a random fork and spend and receive conins on a random chain every time they connect. What do you think the users loosing coins due to this will do?  Run to buy coins from the chanfork which is mos popular this week, or get the f out of Bitcoin before it is too late?

The reason why so many fork supporters run a full node is obvious: If the fork happens, there is no other way to be sure to use the correct altcoin than by running a full node supporting the altcoin they want to use, and not even that will work if the standard bitcoin fork comes back ahead of their altchain.  Yes, the coins will become worthless.  People use bitcoin as a currency for transactions and storage of value, not for the drama.  When the coins can't be used reliably without keeping up with the drama, people are going to jump ship.
You're welcome to call Bitcoin Classic/XT/Unlimited an altcoin if you want.  It does make it difficult to take your call for less drama serious though. I just hope you make it clear to your customers that you're selling coins from an obsolete husk of the Core project when the time comes.
I do make it very clear that I sell Bitcoin and no altcoins.  I always did.  I link to bitcoin.org in my FAQ.

Quote from: Fatman3001 on February 01, 2016, 03:08:04 PM
I don't know what will be done to SPVs if it gets as far as you seem to believe. I'll leave that to people smarter than me. But I do know that these technical difficulties are far more manageable than trying to recoup the lost competitive advantage if we allow Bitcoin to be held back until Core is done with their "Roadmap". You're from Norway, so you must know the dangers of relying on technology that doesn't exist yet. Do you remember "The Norwegian Moon Landing" at Mongstad?
When Core is done with their roadmap, the SPV problem will at least be solved by the fraud proofs included in the segwit proposal.  This makes the world a bit safer for SPV wallets.  Segwit has a testnet, and works, btw.  Many wallets have it implemented already.  You are welcome to test it.  Join #segwit-dev on Freenode to discuss.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
I have tried to get an answer to what I think is the biggest problem here many times, but you keep ignoring it:
SPV wallets, which most people use, will connect to a random fork and spend and receive conins on a random chain every time they connect.  Whyat do you think the users loosing coins due to this will do?  Run to buy coins from the chanfork which is mos popular this week, or get the f out of Bitcoin before it is too late?
Quote
SPV clients which connect to full nodes can detect a likely hard fork by connecting to several full nodes and ensuring that they’re all on the same chain with the same block height, plus or minus several blocks to account for transmission delays and stale blocks. If there’s a divergence, the client can disconnect from nodes with weaker chains.

SPV clients should also monitor for block and transaction version number increases to ensure they process received transactions and create new transactions using the current consensus rules.
source
In the madness of someone intentionally hardforking with little support and only a few nodes, there is still a very high chance of a SPV wallet getting on a different fork.

Madness, in that scenario, is a choice, not a condition.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

Huh?  The bitcoin blocks are still valid bitcoin blocks when segwit is deployed.  Transactions with a segregated witness will have the signature in a separate chain, but this does not change the validity of the block. The blocks and the transactions in the blocks are perfectly valid to all nodes.



This is completely wrong. The segregated tx's are absolutely invalid to present nodes. A nasty hack to make them appear as "I dont know what to do with this, so I will assume its valid" does not mean a tx is valid. They will remain UNVALIDATED by nodes that are not upgraded.
legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
I have tried to get an answer to what I think is the biggest problem here many times, but you keep ignoring it:
SPV wallets, which most people use, will connect to a random fork and spend and receive conins on a random chain every time they connect.  Whyat do you think the users loosing coins due to this will do?  Run to buy coins from the chanfork which is mos popular this week, or get the f out of Bitcoin before it is too late?
Quote
SPV clients which connect to full nodes can detect a likely hard fork by connecting to several full nodes and ensuring that they’re all on the same chain with the same block height, plus or minus several blocks to account for transmission delays and stale blocks. If there’s a divergence, the client can disconnect from nodes with weaker chains.

SPV clients should also monitor for block and transaction version number increases to ensure they process received transactions and create new transactions using the current consensus rules.
source
In the madness of someone intentionally hardforking with little support and only a few nodes, there is still a very high chance of a SPV wallet getting on a different fork.
legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
Really?  Tell me then, why would someone invest the kind of money needed to gain more than 50% of the hashrate, just to destroy the value of it?  This is not as obvious to me as it is yo you.
Tell me then, why would someone invest money in a monority chain with 25% of hash power, just to make a hard fork permanent and destory the value of it?
People will mine on the correct chain for profit.  It is the one most of the users will use.  More than 90% of nodes are currently running Core.  Just a month back less than 87% of all nodes ran Core.  Which means the users are running Core, and will want Core coins.  People will SPV wallets are more than 90% likely to connect to a Core chain, and only see Core coins.  The value will dwindle, but Bitcoin is still the coin of choice for more than 90% of the users.

It is the major consensus decide what is real bitcoin, nothing else. Please do your home work and make sure you fully understand why a coin's value will be very close to its mining cost (e.g. total hash power)
Invalid blocks are invalid, no matter how many miners build on top of the invalid blocks.
Until they cheat the old nodes to believe that they are valid, which is exactly the soft fork do. SW blocks are invalid for example, they are definitely not bitcoin blocks, but they cheat old nodes to believe that they are still valid. Unfortunately, the moment they start to cheat the old nodes, old nodes will also accept invalid SW blocks that they can not identify, that's where you get your hard fork
Huh?  The bitcoin blocks are still valid bitcoin blocks when segwit is deployed.  Transactions with a segregated witness will have the signature in a separate chain, but this does not change the validity of the block.  The blocks and the transactions in the blocks are perfectly valid to all nodes.

Only upgraded nodes will know how to check the validity of transactions where the spent txout is from a transaction with segregated witness, but this won't be a problem.  It won't activate until at least 95% of the hashrate support it.  Any chainforks will therefore be short, and can not be hard.

The July 04 fork was not a hard fork.  Chainforks happen every day.  For that reason you should not accept
The July 04 fork IS a hard fork, a few nodes with majority of hash power mined the longest chain, and the consensus did not regard that longest chain to be valid.  The rule says that the longest chain should be the correct chain, but consensus says it is not. This is a perfect example that consensus decide what is bitcoin, not code.
The rule says the longest chain is only correct if it follows all the rules.  Simply being the longest is not enough.  The stupid miner announced support for BIP66 without actually supporting it.  He lost money, and was probably thought a lesson.  All nodes, both old and upgraded, were on the correct chain as soon as it overtook the malicious chain.

The August 2010 fork, which was much longer, was even correct according to the current consensus at that time.  Unfortunately this was non-intentional, and a new version was rushed out to mine out the chain with the malicious block at low difficulty.

It is similar in 2013 fork, consensus decided 0.7 is bitcoin, not 0.8, so that even 0.8 have more hash power and the longest chain, it is not bitcoin
Of course, even though Gavin wanted to hard fork even then by defining the 0.8 behaviour correct.  That would have been disastrous.  I remember the other developers spent some time convincing him.

Like you said, fork happens every day, because there is constantly disagreement in the network, but that is unavoidable, unless you want to have a communism type total domination disallow any kind of different voice, fork will always happen. You might remember that when we had the first reward halving, there was a hard fork that is permanently mining 50 bitcoin forever, but that did not create the situation you described, it just died like any other hard fork due to no major consensus
Correct.  No consensus make hard forks die.  Which is why all the current Bit-altcoins are stillborn, and very few actually run them.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1013
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC
Both coins will soon get worthless, since people can't use them.  Hashpower is not the same as users or nodes.
correct. nevertheless thats not the situation we have at the moment. its not 80% hashpower against the rest of the community.
in fact its more like some part of core stands against pretty much everyone else in the bitcoin universe.
Where on Earth did you get that idea!?  The number of nodes running bit-altcoins, like "Bitcoin XT", "Bitcoin Classic", "Bitcoin Unlimited", etc, is decreasing, and less than 10% of the total.  If you see at e.g. the "Bitcoin Classic" website, the list of supporters is very short.  The vast majority still run and support standard Bitcoin.  
Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.
According to "ShadowOfHarbinger" it was released days ago, but he is full of crap and might be lying.

You mean the statement he linked to: "Source code is out there. Binaries/release soon." ?

I'm not sure what to say. Looks pretty unambiguous to me.

bitcoin services are in favor of 2MB. that means stamp, coinbase, blockchain.org, bitpay, etc etc
Most Bitcoin services support standard Bitcoin.  By any metric.
https://bitcoinclassic.com/

If you look at the list at Bitcoin Classics website there are a lot of heavy hitters.
Not a lot.  There are a few who took VC money from the same people.

A much longer list than the one on the "Bitcoin Classic" site.

hmmpfff..... not really the point, but:

https://github.com/bitcoinclassic/website/issues/3

Look! They have 288, Core has 136!

That was useful.

Few big players have voiced support for Core. At least I couldn't find many, maybe you see something I can't see (sry, there's bitmynt). Exchanges like Huobi, Bitfinex and Kraken are probably waiting to see which side of the net the ball lands.
Or they just don't care about the drama, and will stick with standard bitcoin.

Whatever standard bitcoin will be.

Quote from: Fatman3001 on February 01, 2016, 03:08:04 PM
so its basically a minor group of devs against everyone else.
Again: How did you get this idea?  I have been in #bitcoin on Freenode since 2010, and the support for the current consensus is almost unison.  People are mostly making fun of this sillly forking idea.  It is harder to operate a bunch of shills and sybils on IRC than Bitcointalk and Reddit, of course.
And you wonder why people are frustrated with Core?
Yes.

Quote from: Fatman3001 on February 01, 2016, 03:08:04 PM
Quote
The forkers don't even agree on how to fork.  The current count is 380 nodes running "Bitcoin XT", 103 running "Bitcoin Classic" and 75 running "Bitcoin Classic".  We may end up with four different blockchains.
Bitcoin unlimited clients will work as long as they're set to 2MB/2MB+. I'm not sure how XT will deal with this, but it shouldn't be a problem for them to implement a 2MB version if they want to keep pusing for their own solution.
Currently Unlimited has more support than Classic, XT has much more support than both of them, and Core dwarfs them all.  Support for larger blocksize forks have dwindled since the bitcoin developers agreed on a roadmap which scales much better than the alternatives, and avoids a hard fork.  On January 1st there were almost 750 nodes trying to fork vs 4879 nodes running Bitcoin Core.  The number of Core nodes is increasing, and the number of fork nodes is decreasing.  Looks like most people are pushing for the Core solution.

Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.

Quote from: Fatman3001 on February 01, 2016, 03:08:04 PM
Quote from: sturle on February 01, 2016, 02:55:29 PM
The forkers don't even agree on how to fork.  The current count is 380 nodes running "Bitcoin XT", 103 running "Bitcoin Classic" and 75 running "Bitcoin Classic".  We may end up with four different blockchains.
1Bitcoin, 3 shitcoins. Cool
How would XT and Classic both activate when each require 750/1000 blocks to activate?
If a majority of miners do it, they will do it again just for the fun of it.  The coins will be worthless anyway.
You can't be serious? If that's not a joke it's the worst "slippery slope" argument I've ever heard.
I have tried to get an answer to what I think is the biggest problem here many times, but you keep ignoring it:
SPV wallets, which most people use, will connect to a random fork and spend and receive conins on a random chain every time they connect.  Whyat do you think the users loosing coins due to this will do?  Run to buy coins from the chanfork which is mos popular this week, or get the f out of Bitcoin before it is too late?

The reason why so many fork supporters run a full node is obvious: If the fork happens, there is no other way to be sure to use the correct altcoin than by running a full node supporting the altcoin they want to use, and not even that will work if the standard bitcoin fork comes back ahead of their altchain.  Yes, the coins will become worthless.  People use bitcoin as a currency for transactions and storage of value, not for the drama.  When the coins can't be used reliably without keeping up with the drama, people are going to jump ship.

You're welcome to call Bitcoin Classic/XT/Unlimited an altcoin if you want.  It does make it difficult to take your call for less drama serious though. I just hope you make it clear to your customers that you're selling coins from an obsolete husk of the Core project when the time comes.

I don't know what will be done to SPVs if it gets as far as you seem to believe. I'll leave that to people smarter than me. But I do know that these technical difficulties are far more manageable than trying to recoup the lost competitive advantage if we allow Bitcoin to be held back until Core is done with their "Roadmap". You're from Norway, so you must know the dangers of relying on technology that doesn't exist yet. Do you remember "The Norwegian Moon Landing" at Mongstad?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

I have tried to get an answer to what I think is the biggest problem here many times, but you keep ignoring it:
SPV wallets, which most people use, will connect to a random fork and spend and receive conins on a random chain every time they connect.  Whyat do you think the users loosing coins due to this will do?  Run to buy coins from the chanfork which is mos popular this week, or get the f out of Bitcoin before it is too late?


Quote
SPV clients which connect to full nodes can detect a likely hard fork by connecting to several full nodes and ensuring that they’re all on the same chain with the same block height, plus or minus several blocks to account for transmission delays and stale blocks. If there’s a divergence, the client can disconnect from nodes with weaker chains.

SPV clients should also monitor for block and transaction version number increases to ensure they process received transactions and create new transactions using the current consensus rules.


source
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Warning: Confrmed Gavinista

According to "ShadowOfHarbinger" it was released days ago, but he is full of crap and might be lying.  


Classic code has been available for compilation and test for a few days. It is not an official 'release' ( but is probably what will be the rc)

These are the nodes (like mine) which show up in bitnodes.

Release dates to follow.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination

Really?  Tell me then, why would someone invest the kind of money needed to gain more than 50% of the hashrate, just to destroy the value of it?  This is not as obvious to me as it is yo you.

Tell me then, why would someone invest money in a monority chain with 25% of hash power, just to make a hard fork permanent and destory the value of it?

It is the major consensus decide what is real bitcoin, nothing else. Please do your home work and make sure you fully understand why a coin's value will be very close to its mining cost (e.g. total hash power)
Invalid blocks are invalid, no matter how many miners build on top of the invalid blocks.
Until they cheat the old nodes to believe that they are valid, which is exactly the soft fork do. SW blocks are invalid for example, they are definitely not bitcoin blocks, but they cheat old nodes to believe that they are still valid. Unfortunately, the moment they start to cheat the old nodes, old nodes will also accept invalid SW blocks that they can not identify, that's where you get your hard fork

Notice that a soft fork will also trigger a hard fork (See July 04 fork), but in a totally uncontrollable manner, because in a soft fork you don't know what kind of nodes people are running, and since that hard fork is uncontrollable, you will get much worse result than a prepared hard fork, where everyone knows exactly what will happen
The July 04 fork was not a hard fork.  Chainforks happen every day.  For that reason you should not accept

The July 04 fork IS a hard fork, a few nodes with majority of hash power mined the longest chain, and the consensus did not regard that longest chain to be valid. The rule says that the longest chain should be the correct chain, but consensus says it is not. This is a perfect example that consensus decide what is bitcoin, not code. It is similar in 2013 fork, consensus decided 0.7 is bitcoin, not 0.8, so that even 0.8 have more hash power and the longest chain, it is not bitcoin

Like you said, fork happens every day, because there is constantly disagreement in the network, but that is unavoidable, unless you want to have a communism type total domination disallow any kind of different voice, fork will always happen. You might remember that when we had the first reward halving, there was a hard fork that is permanently mining 50 bitcoin forever, but that did not create the situation you described, it just died like any other hard fork due to no major consensus

legendary
Activity: 1437
Merit: 1002
https://bitmynt.no
Both coins will soon get worthless, since people can't use them.  Hashpower is not the same as users or nodes.
correct. nevertheless thats not the situation we have at the moment. its not 80% hashpower against the rest of the community.
in fact its more like some part of core stands against pretty much everyone else in the bitcoin universe.
Where on Earth did you get that idea!?  The number of nodes running bit-altcoins, like "Bitcoin XT", "Bitcoin Classic", "Bitcoin Unlimited", etc, is decreasing, and less than 10% of the total.  If you see at e.g. the "Bitcoin Classic" website, the list of supporters is very short.  The vast majority still run and support standard Bitcoin.  
Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.
According to "ShadowOfHarbinger" it was released days ago, but he is full of crap and might be lying.  

bitcoin services are in favor of 2MB. that means stamp, coinbase, blockchain.org, bitpay, etc etc
Most Bitcoin services support standard Bitcoin.  By any metric.
https://bitcoinclassic.com/

If you look at the list at Bitcoin Classics website there are a lot of heavy hitters.
Not a lot.  There are a few who took VC money from the same people.

A much longer list than the one on the "Bitcoin Classic" site.

Few big players have voiced support for Core. At least I couldn't find many, maybe you see something I can't see (sry, there's bitmynt). Exchanges like Huobi, Bitfinex and Kraken are probably waiting to see which side of the net the ball lands.
Or they just don't care about the drama, and will stick with standard bitcoin.

so its basically a minor group of devs against everyone else.
Again: How did you get this idea?  I have been in #bitcoin on Freenode since 2010, and the support for the current consensus is almost unison.  People are mostly making fun of this sillly forking idea.  It is harder to operate a bunch of shills and sybils on IRC than Bitcointalk and Reddit, of course.
And you wonder why people are frustrated with Core?
Yes.

Quote
The forkers don't even agree on how to fork.  The current count is 380 nodes running "Bitcoin XT", 103 running "Bitcoin Classic" and 75 running "Bitcoin Classic".  We may end up with four different blockchains.
Bitcoin unlimited clients will work as long as they're set to 2MB/2MB+. I'm not sure how XT will deal with this, but it shouldn't be a problem for them to implement a 2MB version if they want to keep pusing for their own solution.
Currently Unlimited has more support than Classic, XT has much more support than both of them, and Core dwarfs them all.  Support for larger blocksize forks have dwindled since the bitcoin developers agreed on a roadmap which scales much better than the alternatives, and avoids a hard fork.  On January 1st there were almost 750 nodes trying to fork vs 4879 nodes running Bitcoin Core.  The number of Core nodes is increasing, and the number of fork nodes is decreasing.  Looks like most people are pushing for the Core solution.

The forkers don't even agree on how to fork.  The current count is 380 nodes running "Bitcoin XT", 103 running "Bitcoin Classic" and 75 running "Bitcoin Classic".  We may end up with four different blockchains.
1Bitcoin, 3 shitcoins. Cool
How would XT and Classic both activate when each require 750/1000 blocks to activate?
If a majority of miners do it, they will do it again just for the fun of it.  The coins will be worthless anyway.
You can't be serious? If that's not a joke it's the worst "slippery slope" argument I've ever heard.
I have tried to get an answer to what I think is the biggest problem here many times, but you keep ignoring it:
SPV wallets, which most people use, will connect to a random fork and spend and receive conins on a random chain every time they connect.  Whyat do you think the users loosing coins due to this will do?  Run to buy coins from the chanfork which is mos popular this week, or get the f out of Bitcoin before it is too late?

The reason why so many fork supporters run a full node is obvious: If the fork happens, there is no other way to be sure to use the correct altcoin than by running a full node supporting the altcoin they want to use, and not even that will work if the standard bitcoin fork comes back ahead of their altchain.  Yes, the coins will become worthless.  People use bitcoin as a currency for transactions and storage of value, not for the drama.  When the coins can't be used reliably without keeping up with the drama, people are going to jump ship.
legendary
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Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC
Both coins will soon get worthless, since people can't use them.  Hashpower is not the same as users or nodes.
correct. nevertheless thats not the situation we have at the moment. its not 80% hashpower against the rest of the community.
in fact its more like some part of core stands against pretty much everyone else in the bitcoin universe.
Where on Earth did you get that idea!?  The number of nodes running bit-altcoins, like "Bitcoin XT", "Bitcoin Classic", "Bitcoin Unlimited", etc, is decreasing, and less than 10% of the total.  If you see at e.g. the "Bitcoin Classic" website, the list of supporters is very short.  The vast majority still run and support standard Bitcoin. 

Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.

miners are in favor of 2MB.
Some miners, and I thought most of them pulled their support after talking to Jeff?  I am a miner, and I do not support the destruction of Bitcoin.

Anecdotal evidence suggests they were hesitant after Jeff spoke with them. But none of them has officially withdrawn their support. Antpool is even at r/btc asking them to hurry up releasing classic.

community/users are in favor of 2MB. (i would estimate 80/20 in favor of 2MB)
You made that up.  By the number of nodes, it is 5509 against 541 in favor of standard Bitcoin.  Remember that supporters of different forks have a strong incentive to run an alternative implementations, since SPV clients will stop working reliably after a hard fork.

Bitcoin Classic hasn't been released yet.

bitcoin services are in favor of 2MB. that means stamp, coinbase, blockchain.org, bitpay, etc etc
Most Bitcoin services support standard Bitcoin.  By any metric.

https://bitcoinclassic.com/

If you look at the list at Bitcoin Classics website there are a lot of heavy hitters.

https://github.com/bitcoin-core/website/issues/50

Few big players have voiced support for Core. At least I couldn't find many, maybe you see something I can't see (sry, there's bitmynt). Exchanges like Huobi, Bitfinex and Kraken are probably waiting to see which side of the net the ball lands.

Quote from: ImI on February 01, 2016, 11:12:59 AM
so its basically a minor group of devs against everyone else.
Again: How did you get this idea?  I have been in #bitcoin on Freenode since 2010, and the support for the current consensus is almost unison.  People are mostly making fun of this sillly forking idea.  It is harder to operate a bunch of shills and sybils on IRC than Bitcointalk and Reddit, of course. 

And you wonder why people are frustrated with Core?

Quote from: sturle on February 01, 2016, 02:55:29 PM
Quote from: canth on February 01, 2016, 02:16:17 PM
The forkers don't even agree on how to fork.  The current count is 380 nodes running "Bitcoin XT", 103 running "Bitcoin Classic" and 75 running "Bitcoin Classic".  We may end up with four different blockchains.
1Bitcoin, 3 shitcoins. Cool
How would XT and Classic both activate when each require 750/1000 blocks to activate?
If a majority of miners do it, they will do it again just for the fun of it.  The coins will be worthless anyway.

You can't be serious? If that's not a joke it's the worst "slippery slope" argument I've ever heard.
legendary
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https://bitmynt.no
The forkers don't even agree on how to fork.  The current count is 380 nodes running "Bitcoin XT", 103 running "Bitcoin Classic" and 75 running "Bitcoin Classic".  We may end up with four different blockchains.
1Bitcoin, 3 shitcoins. Cool
How would XT and Classic both activate when each require 750/1000 blocks to activate?
If a majority of miners do it, they will do it again just for the fun of it.  The coins will be worthless anyway.
legendary
Activity: 1260
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Besides a few payment processors, any evidence to support such claims?
afaik from those pools, exchanges, payment processors that went public pretty much all supported 2MB. the bitcoin-economy seems to be pretty decided on that matter. i obv wont go and search for every statement, i remember a dicussion at #bitcoin-dev where core devs also agreed that the economy seems to be against them. they blamed it on wrong communications etc.
or in other words, name important players of the bitcoin economy which publicly declared that they wanna keep 1MB. you wont find any.
I haven't researched this much, since I assume that the vast majority who didn't publicly announce support for any of the four forks, support the current roadmap, but here is one in addition to myself.  From #localbitcoins-chat:
Quote
--- Day changed Wed Jan 20 2016
00:59 < belcher> jeremias and MaxLBC, does localbitcoins.com have a policy on the contentious hardforks which increase the block size? proposed by e.g. bitcoin-xt, bitcoin unlimited, bitcoin classic, or would you only ever hardfork with near-unanimous agreement of all bitcoin's users
08:03 <@jeremias> regarding hard fork, I think localbitcoins is not in the 2mb camp
Localbitcoins is one of the largest exchanges (perhaps the largest) by number of users, and one of the largest by BTC volume.

I don't think you will find anyone who support the status quo, if that is what you mean by 1 MB.  The roadmap scales much better than any suggested blocksize increment.

buut butt social media Cry
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