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Topic: Writing down seed phrase: printer ink or pen ink ? (Read 1190 times)

legendary
Activity: 2870
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a thief knows that a diary can be used to blackmail someone.

Aside from how much thief bother doing it, there's risk of getting tracked or the victim decide it's cheaper to ignore the blackmail.

I know that these are very real scenarios you are talking about here, but can't you evade most of them by keeping a revolver under your pillow while you sleep?

Most country has strict permit for gun ownership though.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469
Aside from how much thief bother doing it, there's risk of getting tracked or the victim decide it's cheaper to ignore the blackmail.


it all depends how much trouble the victim could get in if their personal data got shared to the wrong party.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
a thief knows that a diary can be used to blackmail someone.
Burglars don't want to keep taps on their victims. Get money, get out, and don't look back.

can't you evade most of them by keeping a revolver under your pillow while you sleep?
Maybe in Texas, but not where I live.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
a thief knows that a diary can be used to blackmail someone. if it has really sensitive personal information or just information the person doesn't want anyone to know. that's why a diary is a liability just as much as a bitcoin private key on a piece of paper is a liability if anyone finds it.
It is so much easier to hide a tiny piece of paper at home than it is to hide anything else. For example I have a lot of books at home, a bunch of documents, etc. that makes hiding some text inside one of them very easy.
Not to mention that a thief coming to your home would steal other valuables such as jewelry not search for your paper wallet which could be encrypted which would make it useless to them.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469

I know that these are very real scenarios you are talking about here, but can't you evade most of them by keeping a revolver under your pillow while you sleep?

no not if you're not home when they rob you.

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Most theives are cowards, particularly when they are by themselves and you point first, so he wouldn't dare take anything while there's a gun pointed to his head.


that's why they wait until you're not there.

legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

I know that these are very real scenarios you are talking about here, but can't you evade most of them by keeping a revolver under your pillow while you sleep?

Most theives are cowards, particularly when they are by themselves and you point first, so he wouldn't dare take anything while there's a gun pointed to his head.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469

It indeed won't help against a targeted attack, but how likely are those?

if the thief knows about bitcoin, i'd say it is very likely.

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I'm talking about the millions of burglaries where the thief looks for valuables and wants to get out as quickly as possible again. 12 words under your pillow will be noticed, 12 words in a long written text will be ignored.

a thief knows that a diary can be used to blackmail someone. if it has really sensitive personal information or just information the person doesn't want anyone to know. that's why a diary is a liability just as much as a bitcoin private key on a piece of paper is a liability if anyone finds it.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
a reasonably sophistocated attacker would simply get the diary into a text file then search for strings of keywords in the bip 39 wordlist. "blanket air setup scrap feature actress prison bitter cash torch vacant valley" would stick out like a sore thumb. so keeping the 12 words together would be like handing over your seed phrase to an attacker on a silver platter.
It indeed won't help against a targeted attack, but how likely are those? I'm talking about the millions of burglaries where the thief looks for valuables and wants to get out as quickly as possible again. 12 words under your pillow will be noticed, 12 words in a long written text will be ignored.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469

That's easy: just read through your own handwriting, until you stumble onto 12 words that form an incoherent sentence. It might take you a few hours, but you'll find it.

well yeah but if someone else found the diary they would do the same exact thing.


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That's true. And that's why I wouldn't suggest adding your own encoding, just keep the 12 words together. I'll give you a hint: search for "Blanket" on this page Smiley

a reasonably sophistocated attacker would simply get the diary into a text file then search for strings of keywords in the bip 39 wordlist. "blanket air setup scrap feature actress prison bitter cash torch vacant valley" would stick out like a sore thumb. so keeping the 12 words together would be like handing over your seed phrase to an attacker on a silver platter.

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That's because I couldn't find a meaningful diary to download as an example Tongue In real life, if you have a diary already, you can just add the seed words today in the middle of your story. The coming months it will be hidden "deeper".
not really. an attacker will just be even more motivated to crack your diary. the bigger it is the more exciting for them. especially if they think there is any type of anomoly with your diary like you are trying to hide some type of information or the diary entries don't make sense.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
yeah but in that case, the person the diary belongs to might forget how to decode it too. so back to square 1.
That's easy: just read through your own handwriting, until you stumble onto 12 words that form an incoherent sentence. It might take you a few hours, but you'll find it.

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whenever you try and obfuscate information inside other information, you run the risk that you forget the encoding process and how to recover the information.
That's true. And that's why I wouldn't suggest adding your own encoding, just keep the 12 words together. I'll give you a hint: search for "Blanket" on this page Smiley

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a diary composed of list of meaningless sentences, sounds like a bitcoin private key hiding somewhere. Grin
That's because I couldn't find a meaningful diary to download as an example Tongue In real life, if you have a diary already, you can just add the seed words today in the middle of your story. The coming months it will be hidden "deeper".
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469

If you don't know what you're looking for, you're going to have to read through 100 pages of (potentially) terrible handwriting. If you don't even know there's a seed phrase in it, I'd say it could be safer than a piece of paper with 12 words.

yeah but in that case, the person the diary belongs to might forget how to decode it too. so back to square 1. whenever you try and obfuscate information inside other information, you run the risk that you forget the encoding process and how to recover the information. the chances are extremely high in the 100 pages of dummy text you gave that the person who created the diary would forget how to recover their seed phrase. unless the only words in that entire diary on the wordlist were the seed words but that would be a red flag to anyone analyzing the diary they would figure that out too.

a diary composed of list of meaningless sentences, sounds like a bitcoin private key hiding somewhere. Grin
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
why would a diary be any safer than a piece of paper? ~ if anyone ever finds your diary, there will be no doubt that it's something to read through.
I'd have to be really bored to read diaries, and for sure wouldn't expect to find money in there. I can imagine it works to "hide in plain sight". Let's say you have 100 pages like this:
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But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains. But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains. But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains. But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains. Blanket air setup scrap feature actress prison bitter cash torch vacant valley. But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains.But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but because occasionally circumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us ever undertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure? On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equal blame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated
(quote taken from blindtextgenerator.com with 12 added seed words from IanColeman)

If you don't know what you're looking for, you're going to have to read through 100 pages of (potentially) terrible handwriting. If you don't even know there's a seed phrase in it, I'd say it could be safer than a piece of paper with 12 words.
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1296
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Engrave it on steel & hide it in your home or something. I don’t like seed words written or printed on paper. Too many things can go wrong. You’ll need at least one copy, preferably not in the same location.
Putting text on a metal object will be the best way, although there are many nuances here too: starting from whether the metal is not oxidized and what grade of steel. The choice of how to store  seed phrase will depend on what kind of environmental exposure you want to protect the item from in the first place.
 
If we return to the question that OP asks (what to choose between printer ink or pen ink?), then it seems to me that both options are not very good. In the case of using a printer, phrase will have to be entered on the PC, which is a weak point due to which the text can be compromised. Pen ink fades over time and the text ceases to be readable, which is also bad. Of these two options, I would still choose pen ink with the caveat that will need to choose high-quality ink that will be resistant and will not lose its properties over a long period of time.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469
piece of paper, I'm sure you have faced the issue of finding an invoice or some paper on which you have written a phone number and now can't find it.
I keep my diary really safe so if you are that kinda person, I would suggest a diary over a piece of paper and please write using a BALL Point Pen

why would a diary be any safer than a piece of paper? they made out of the same material. plus if anyone ever finds your diary, there will be no doubt that it's something to read through. because it contains personal information. private stuff.
legendary
Activity: 3556
Merit: 9709
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Engrave it on steel & hide it in your home or something. I don’t like seed words written or printed on paper. Too many things can go wrong. You’ll need at least one copy, preferably not in the same location.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
saving your seed on any kind of mobile app or note on a PC/Laptop is absolutely not advisable.

I personally feel the safest is a diary, but I have had people have an opposite view on this.
but a diary is way better than a piece of paper, I'm sure you have faced the issue of finding an invoice or some paper on which you have written a phone number and now can't find it.
I keep my diary really safe so if you are that kinda person, I would suggest a diary over a piece of paper and please write using a BALL Point Pen
legendary
Activity: 3682
Merit: 1580
You need the threshold number of seed phrases or master private keys, which in a 3-of-5 wallet will be three. You then need at least a master public key from the remaining shares, which will be the other two. However, for these other two shares, instead of the master public key you can use a seed phrase or master private key instead, since the wallet can derive the necessary master public keys.
Now you have confused me. Grin
If I use a 3-of-5 multisig setup and I have all 5 seed phrases, will the wallet accept all those seeds or do I have to import some xpubs manually? I am asking if I am the one who need to get my hands on the xpubs or will the wallet do that itself? I know that everything is derived from the seed, but I always thought you need some xpubs as well without the wallet doing the deriving part. 

xpub can be derived from the seed so you don't need to store the xpub separately if you have the seed.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
-snip-
Depends on the wallet software I guess, but most that I have used will quite happily accept five seed phrases. Even if you were to enter three seed phrases and two master public keys, the wallet would still need to derive the other three master public keys from the three seed phrases you entered in order to derive the addresses in the wallet, so no reason it couldn't derive all five master public keys from five seed phrases.
legendary
Activity: 2730
Merit: 7065
You need the threshold number of seed phrases or master private keys, which in a 3-of-5 wallet will be three. You then need at least a master public key from the remaining shares, which will be the other two. However, for these other two shares, instead of the master public key you can use a seed phrase or master private key instead, since the wallet can derive the necessary master public keys.
Now you have confused me. Grin
If I use a 3-of-5 multisig setup and I have all 5 seed phrases, will the wallet accept all those seeds or do I have to import some xpubs manually? I am asking if I am the one who need to get my hands on the xpubs or will the wallet do that itself? I know that everything is derived from the seed, but I always thought you need some xpubs as well without the wallet doing the deriving part. 
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
That I do not know how to do. Please drop a link about it to get some idea.
Every wallet which uses seed phrases uses that seed phrase to derive your master private and public keys, and indeed, all your private and public keys. The process involves a number of hash functions to turn your seed phrase in to a seed number and then that seed number in to private keys, and then elliptic curve multiplication to turn the private keys in to public keys. You don't need to know how to do this manually (and few people do) - your wallet software will do it all for you. You give it the seed phrase, it will work out the corresponding xpub.

A bit confuse now. In a 3 - of - 5 wallet don't I need at least three cosigner and all 5 xpubs to restore the wallet.
You need the threshold number of seed phrases or master private keys, which in a 3-of-5 wallet will be three. You then need at least a master public key from the remaining shares, which will be the other two. However, for these other two shares, instead of the master public key you can use a seed phrase or master private key instead, since the wallet can derive the necessary master public keys.
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