https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40865.20
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Topic: X6500 Custom FPGA Miner - page 55. (Read 219954 times)
There's an interesting discussion going on about FPGA's here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40865.20
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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40865.20
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Well, there is always piracy 
Damn you xilinx, I would buy it if it were affordable but their prices are just plain ridiculous.
But to be honest this makes me loose interest in their products, and the more I read about the technology involved I think it would be best if bitcoin miners were developed with the help of the underdog competition. I have to research this further but there seems to be alot of designs which utilize parallel processing new to the market which also provide foss toolchains.
Damn you xilinx, I would buy it if it were affordable but their prices are just plain ridiculous.
But to be honest this makes me loose interest in their products, and the more I read about the technology involved I think it would be best if bitcoin miners were developed with the help of the underdog competition. I have to research this further but there seems to be alot of designs which utilize parallel processing new to the market which also provide foss toolchains.
What seems to be a real bummer here and at the competition is that these fpgas cannot be developed for with the free xilinx webpack.
That's real bad for anyone interested in hdl design as well.
That's real bad for anyone interested in hdl design as well.
It's true, it is a bummer. I don't know why Xilinx would want to limit anyone's ability to develop for their chips. There are a few ways around this though:
- If you're a student, ask Xilinx for a free license. Heck, ask them even if you're not a student. Who knows!
- Get a 30 day trial of ISE. Before I had a full license, I once extended my 30 day trial 3 or 4 times, and it never complained. Hopefully they haven't changed that.
- Develop HDL without the software, but send it off to a friend to synthesize it for you. For example, PM me!
How exactly did you go about programming your chip? I'm curious, quite honestly.
Nah that is just a cpld with a parallel board for learning a little vhdl. Those chips are obviously a different caliber but the reason why it shouldn't work all the same are just licensing issues. But I'm not exactly sure if this really is the case for private use but from what I've heard the free xilinx software refuses to work all the same. 
How exactly did you go about programming your chip? I'm curious, quite honestly.
What seems to be a real bummer here and at the competition is that these fpgas cannot be developed for with the free xilinx webpack.
That's real bad for anyone interested in hdl design as well.
That's real bad for anyone interested in hdl design as well.
Quote
How's the new design going guys?
Pretty well, Karmicads. Today we talked about how we're going to protect the circuit from overcurrent. We might also be adding overvoltage protection. Small details basically. I'm pushing hard to send the board design out on Sunday afternoon, to get our prototype made.
Noice. Hows about a reverse polarity diode. Only be a few cents extra. I assume it'd fry something if the supply polarity were hooked up backwards.
Any comment about this? http://www.enusbaum.com/blog/2011/08/23/why-the-idea-of-fpga-bitcoin-mining-is-stupid/
hope it's legit to post the link here
hope it's legit to post the link here
Building himself up to his own level of self importance:
Quote
here’s the part where I let everyone in on a little secret: Ready?
[Insert: Dramatic pregnant pause]
Quote
Are you sure?
[Insert: Another dramatic pregnant pause]
Quote
Ok, but don’t say I didnt warn you:
[OK! I'll try to hold back my excitement]
Quote
Modern GPU’s are (essentially) FPGA’s
Did I blow your mind? Do you need a minute?
What people seem to forget is that modern GPU’s are essentially FPGA’s in that you’re writing a program that will take advantage of a dedicated computing resource for which the management of allocation and assignment is abstracted out through the hardware.
ATI/AMD cards for example make extensive use of Stream Processors (or as they were once called, “Programmable Shaders“) which allows the equivalent of the FPGA ‘cores’ to be programmed and executed on the GPU.
So what we’re left with is a video card that is also essentially a FPGA that can execute custom programs in a massively parallel environment. And just like Alton Brown, I love a multitasker! So there’s absolutely no need for FPGA miners as they’ll never be cost effective and the alternatives yield much higher returns.
Did I blow your mind? Do you need a minute?
What people seem to forget is that modern GPU’s are essentially FPGA’s in that you’re writing a program that will take advantage of a dedicated computing resource for which the management of allocation and assignment is abstracted out through the hardware.
ATI/AMD cards for example make extensive use of Stream Processors (or as they were once called, “Programmable Shaders“) which allows the equivalent of the FPGA ‘cores’ to be programmed and executed on the GPU.
So what we’re left with is a video card that is also essentially a FPGA that can execute custom programs in a massively parallel environment. And just like Alton Brown, I love a multitasker! So there’s absolutely no need for FPGA miners as they’ll never be cost effective and the alternatives yield much higher returns.
WANKER!! The simple fact is that GPU's DON'T compete NOW with FPGA technology and they are not optimized for SHA256 hashing but for video preprocessing. That's WHY they are so inefficient with mining bitcoin compared to the FPGA. Can the author of this article write some code to make a 6990 do (in terms of energy costs) what the Spartan 6 will do? NO?I thought not. If GPU's could do what dedicated bitcoin mining FPGA's could do, then these guys (fpgaminer, fizzisist, newMeat1 et. al.), would have been deploying firmware upgrades instead of the costly (but worthwhile) FPGA based hardware solution. You have to account for difficulty increases and power costs. This guy can't see past his nose.
I don't know why everyone gets so uppity about stuff like this. It is an interesting application of fringe technology. It may or may not pay off...
I see too much crap about Moore's law and the difficulty/price point at which GPU mining becomes inefficient. Difficulty has dropped for a month straight. The market is in chaos. The social scene is in complete and utter chaos. Who pretends they can read the future in such tumultuous times?
I think the author makes an excellent point, in his 2-year comparison, or maybe that was a commenter. They all seem to be named Eric.
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How's the new design going guys?
Pretty well, Karmicads. Today we talked about how we're going to protect the circuit from overcurrent. We might also be adding overvoltage protection. Small details basically. I'm pushing hard to send the board design out on Sunday afternoon, to get our prototype made.
picocomputing.com and their ilk are feasting on governmental, spooky, military and bank funded customers, who do not count every penny, since it is all paid by tax payers one way or another.
I doubt that those providers ever will get prices to a reasonable level for competitive bitcoin mining market. If they would want to get into this market, their margins will have to shrink significantly.
I doubt that those providers ever will get prices to a reasonable level for competitive bitcoin mining market. If they would want to get into this market, their margins will have to shrink significantly.
Hi guys,
did someone look at this site: http://www.picocomputing.com ?
Could they have something that helps producing faster/cheaper boards?
did someone look at this site: http://www.picocomputing.com ?
Could they have something that helps producing faster/cheaper boards?
I had a chat with them in 2010 before I went GPU route. Their prices were not competitive comparing to GPU's. I doubt they are any better now and surely not any better than home-grown variety of FPGA boards developed by Bitcoin community recently.
Though of course maybe they quoted me a silly price first. Not the price they really ready to take. All this marketing BS such people play all the time.
WANKER!! The simple fact is that GPU's DON'T compete NOW with FPGA technology and they are not optimized for SHA256 hashing but for video preprocessing. That's WHY they are so inefficient with mining bitcoin compared to the FPGA. Can the author of this article write some code to make a 6990 do (in terms of energy costs) what the Spartan 6 will do? NO?I thought not. If GPU's could do what dedicated bitcoin mining FPGA's could do, then these guys (fpgaminer, fizzisist, newMeat1 et. al.), would have been deploying firmware upgrades instead of the costly (but worthwhile) FPGA based hardware solution. You have to account for difficulty increases and power costs. This guy can't see past his nose.
I love your reaction to this, Karmicads. I'm not sure what this guy's trying to get at here. Maybe he's been working on some new firmware for the GPUs that will be much more efficient at mining? I certainly have no idea how to do this. Also, by the same logic, GPUs are essentially CPUs. Why would you mine with GPUs, then?
We can all see the FPGA more efficient but to me its also more risky. The GPU's are an asset thats easy to sell for a good price. good luck selling $620 FPGA boards if bitcoin tanks. I would MUCH rather have a $620 PC then a $620 FPGA. The pc is useful even if i chose not to bitcoin. Or i can sell it for around $620 if bitcoin is gone.
This is a valid point, but you also have to factor in the depreciation of the GPUs. Furthermore, as we see with the Pico computing example, people are interested in FPGA coprocessors for other cryptography and computational work, and they're willing to pay a lot of money for them. There's a good chance you could resell our boards to people working in that field if Bitcoin did completely collapse. Hi guys,
did someone look at this site: http://www.picocomputing.com ?
Could they have something that helps producing faster/cheaper boards?
Cheers.
spiccioli.
did someone look at this site: http://www.picocomputing.com ?
Could they have something that helps producing faster/cheaper boards?
Cheers.
spiccioli.
I had a chat with them in 2010 before I went GPU route. Their prices were not competitive comparing to GPU's. I doubt they are any better now and surely not any better than home-grown variety of FPGA boards developed by Bitcoin community recently.
Though of course maybe they quoted me a silly price first. Not the price they really ready to take. All this marketing BS such people play all the time.
Hi guys,
did someone look at this site: http://www.picocomputing.com ?
Could they have something that helps producing faster/cheaper boards?
Cheers.
spiccioli.
did someone look at this site: http://www.picocomputing.com ?
Could they have something that helps producing faster/cheaper boards?
Cheers.
spiccioli.
Any comment about this? http://www.enusbaum.com/blog/2011/08/23/why-the-idea-of-fpga-bitcoin-mining-is-stupid/
hope it's legit to post the link here
hope it's legit to post the link here
Building himself up to his own level of self importance:
Quote
here’s the part where I let everyone in on a little secret: Ready?
[Insert: Dramatic pregnant pause]
Quote
Are you sure?
[Insert: Another dramatic pregnant pause]
Quote
Ok, but don’t say I didnt warn you:
[OK! I'll try to hold back my excitement]
Quote
Modern GPU’s are (essentially) FPGA’s
Did I blow your mind? Do you need a minute?
What people seem to forget is that modern GPU’s are essentially FPGA’s in that you’re writing a program that will take advantage of a dedicated computing resource for which the management of allocation and assignment is abstracted out through the hardware.
ATI/AMD cards for example make extensive use of Stream Processors (or as they were once called, “Programmable Shaders“) which allows the equivalent of the FPGA ‘cores’ to be programmed and executed on the GPU.
So what we’re left with is a video card that is also essentially a FPGA that can execute custom programs in a massively parallel environment. And just like Alton Brown, I love a multitasker! So there’s absolutely no need for FPGA miners as they’ll never be cost effective and the alternatives yield much higher returns.
Did I blow your mind? Do you need a minute?
What people seem to forget is that modern GPU’s are essentially FPGA’s in that you’re writing a program that will take advantage of a dedicated computing resource for which the management of allocation and assignment is abstracted out through the hardware.
ATI/AMD cards for example make extensive use of Stream Processors (or as they were once called, “Programmable Shaders“) which allows the equivalent of the FPGA ‘cores’ to be programmed and executed on the GPU.
So what we’re left with is a video card that is also essentially a FPGA that can execute custom programs in a massively parallel environment. And just like Alton Brown, I love a multitasker! So there’s absolutely no need for FPGA miners as they’ll never be cost effective and the alternatives yield much higher returns.
WANKER!! The simple fact is that GPU's DON'T compete NOW with FPGA technology and they are not optimized for SHA256 hashing but for video preprocessing. That's WHY they are so inefficient with mining bitcoin compared to the FPGA. Can the author of this article write some code to make a 6990 do (in terms of energy costs) what the Spartan 6 will do? NO?I thought not. If GPU's could do what dedicated bitcoin mining FPGA's could do, then these guys (fpgaminer, fizzisist, newMeat1 et. al.), would have been deploying firmware upgrades instead of the costly (but worthwhile) FPGA based hardware solution. You have to account for difficulty increases and power costs. This guy can't see past his nose.
Any comment about this?
Yes, the author's logic circuitry is broken
There's a valid answer posted to the article already that brings up electricity costs. It's not just about the ROI with the difficulty levels of today but at what price level a GPU miner vs an FPGA (or ASIC) miner can keep running their rigs.
Quoting from the author in the comments:
Quote
So at the end of the FPGA break even period, you’ll have ONE paid off FPGA cranking out 300 Mhash/sec, or two 6990′s putting out 1.5 Ghash/sec
"Paid off" doesn't negate the cost of running the rig. 750W for the GPUs, 16W for the FPGA (numbers from the article) = 47 times more expensive. 1.5Ghash/s vs 300Mhash/s = 5 times more hashing power.
5/47 = 0.11
So, the GPU solution the author proposes, with reinvesting the profits into more GPUs, is 11% as effective as going down the FPGA route.
(After having written all this I'm somewhat surprised by my own numbers, but I'll post it anyway. I suspect I'll be corrected)
Any comment about this? http://www.enusbaum.com/blog/2011/08/23/why-the-idea-of-fpga-bitcoin-mining-is-stupid/
hope it's legit to post the link here
hope it's legit to post the link here
(Bump) How's the new design going guys?
Here's a little cost analysis of our board. You guys will find this interesting, I think. Basically it shows that the preorders were enough to "get us over the hump", where the price is really steep. From here on out, there's little gain to be had, until we get to 1,000 units.
It's a good thing we got at least 50 orders, otherwise I don't think we could have delivered for under $620. Like fizzisist was saying, all those little taxes, shipping, and Paypal fees really add up.
It's a good thing we got at least 50 orders, otherwise I don't think we could have delivered for under $620. Like fizzisist was saying, all those little taxes, shipping, and Paypal fees really add up.
Haha, you're the man molecular! 
I don't think fpgaminer has even gotten it running on Linux yet (cause he's been really busy lately). Yeah, please write something up... then add it to the wiki, or we can add it for you.
http://fpgamining.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
EDIT- give us a picture here, too, please! It's amazing how small that thing looks.
Here are some FPGA mining articles we've found. Interesting stuff!
http://hackaday.com/2011/08/22/fpga-bitcoin-miner-is-probably-the-most-power-efficient/
http://www.bitcoinminer.com/post/9612343341/all-things-it-fpga-bitcoin-mining
I don't think fpgaminer has even gotten it running on Linux yet (cause he's been really busy lately). Yeah, please write something up... then add it to the wiki, or we can add it for you.
http://fpgamining.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
EDIT- give us a picture here, too, please! It's amazing how small that thing looks.
Here are some FPGA mining articles we've found. Interesting stuff!
http://hackaday.com/2011/08/22/fpga-bitcoin-miner-is-probably-the-most-power-efficient/
http://www.bitcoinminer.com/post/9612343341/all-things-it-fpga-bitcoin-mining
Quote from: x5000
FPGA is now searching for lottery ticket...
I've got a Golden Ticket!!
7BD107D0
Hex nonce: 7BD107D0
New nonce hex: 7bd107d0
Original data: 00000001e8162cee2367fac1993d45171558e47140cd2bb5efad0d1b0000077400000000df73099 e56202184f57a5fec25eeb7840d311513aa89894ea24e3e927a172c244e5e48501a096fe3000000 0000000080000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000080020000
Golden data: 00000001e8162cee2367fac1993d45171558e47140cd2bb5efad0d1b0000077400000000df73099 e56202184f57a5fec25eeb7840d311513aa89894ea24e3e927a172c244e5e48501a096fe3d007d1 7b00000080000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000080020000
Submitting work ...
Result: {"id":1,"error":null,"result":true}
I've got a Golden Ticket!!
7BD107D0
Hex nonce: 7BD107D0
New nonce hex: 7bd107d0
Original data: 00000001e8162cee2367fac1993d45171558e47140cd2bb5efad0d1b0000077400000000df73099 e56202184f57a5fec25eeb7840d311513aa89894ea24e3e927a172c244e5e48501a096fe3000000 0000000080000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000080020000
Golden data: 00000001e8162cee2367fac1993d45171558e47140cd2bb5efad0d1b0000077400000000df73099 e56202184f57a5fec25eeb7840d311513aa89894ea24e3e927a172c244e5e48501a096fe3d007d1 7b00000080000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000080020000
Submitting work ...
Result: {"id":1,"error":null,"result":true}
YESSSS!
I got it working, on LINUX! fucking hell yea!
Li, newMeat, should I write up a little linux guide. It's not been trivial ^^
EDIT: Arghhh! sorry, this is the wrong thread. will crosspost to x5000 thread
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