[XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1684.

smooth

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Quote from: smoothie on October 23, 2015, 05:51:35 AM

Quote from: smooth on October 23, 2015, 05:04:25 AM

Quote from: smoothie on October 22, 2015, 11:26:13 PM

Quote from: chennan on October 22, 2015, 11:21:52 PM

Quote from: americanpegasus on October 22, 2015, 11:19:14 PM

I just saw a quote by a user that Monero has an "opaque blockchain" which I don't think is correct.

Monero has a private blockchain, in the the sender and receiver are always protected from knowing each other, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) the amount of money moving across the blockchain is still visible in some respects.

If someone sent 300,000 Monero across the blockchain, then observers would be able to see that a large amount of money moved today but not be able to pin it down to a particular user or transaction time (with proper mixin settings)

I thought that with the new CT ring developments coming out, people wouldn't be able to tell what amount of monero is being transacted unless you have the right key which shows you the amount for that particular transaction? Wouldn't this be a non issue with the upcoming developments?

In theory yes. It has not been implemented yet into monero so testing needs to happen over months to come.

For now AP is right you can see how much is moved and when. But not who sent to who specifically.

Also you can't really tell it moved between two people. Much of it could be change going back to the sender and it could be someone moving from one wallet to another.

Above comments about CT are correct. However, even with CT, using math an observer can still verify that the coins spent are equal to the coins received. You just can't tell the number.

This is assuming you have the "Amount Key"?

No. The equality sum(in)-sum(out)-fee=0 is independently verified by every node or any observer without any key.

To explain in simplified terms how this works, there is a random blinding term x, which is secret.

Ignoring fee here for simplicity:

hidden_in = real_in + x

hidden_out = real_out + x

Of course real_in - real_out = 0

But hidden_in - hidden_out = 0 i.e. (real_in + x) - (real_out + x) = 0 also

hidden_in and hidden_out are visible on the blockchain.

(Magic crypto math means that you can't do something silly to break this like solve for x.)

equipoise

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Activity: 794

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Monero (XMR) - secure, private, untraceable

Quote from: smoothie on October 23, 2015, 05:51:35 AM

Quote from: smooth on October 23, 2015, 05:04:25 AM

Quote from: smoothie on October 22, 2015, 11:26:13 PM

Quote from: chennan on October 22, 2015, 11:21:52 PM

Quote from: americanpegasus on October 22, 2015, 11:19:14 PM

I just saw a quote by a user that Monero has an "opaque blockchain" which I don't think is correct.

Monero has a private blockchain, in the the sender and receiver are always protected from knowing each other, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) the amount of money moving across the blockchain is still visible in some respects.

If someone sent 300,000 Monero across the blockchain, then observers would be able to see that a large amount of money moved today but not be able to pin it down to a particular user or transaction time (with proper mixin settings)

I thought that with the new CT ring developments coming out, people wouldn't be able to tell what amount of monero is being transacted unless you have the right key which shows you the amount for that particular transaction? Wouldn't this be a non issue with the upcoming developments?

In theory yes. It has not been implemented yet into monero so testing needs to happen over months to come.

For now AP is right you can see how much is moved and when. But not who sent to who specifically.

Also you can't really tell it moved between two people. Much of it could be change going back to the sender and it could be someone moving from one wallet to another.

Above comments about CT are correct. However, even with CT, using math an observer can still verify that the coins spent are equal to the coins received. You just can't tell the number.

This is assuming you have the "Amount Key"?

I don't think this is a correct assumption.

smoothie

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Activity: 2492

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LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: smooth on October 23, 2015, 05:04:25 AM

Quote from: smoothie on October 22, 2015, 11:26:13 PM

Quote from: chennan on October 22, 2015, 11:21:52 PM

Quote from: americanpegasus on October 22, 2015, 11:19:14 PM

I just saw a quote by a user that Monero has an "opaque blockchain" which I don't think is correct.

Monero has a private blockchain, in the the sender and receiver are always protected from knowing each other, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) the amount of money moving across the blockchain is still visible in some respects.

If someone sent 300,000 Monero across the blockchain, then observers would be able to see that a large amount of money moved today but not be able to pin it down to a particular user or transaction time (with proper mixin settings)

I thought that with the new CT ring developments coming out, people wouldn't be able to tell what amount of monero is being transacted unless you have the right key which shows you the amount for that particular transaction? Wouldn't this be a non issue with the upcoming developments?

In theory yes. It has not been implemented yet into monero so testing needs to happen over months to come.

For now AP is right you can see how much is moved and when. But not who sent to who specifically.

Also you can't really tell it moved between two people. Much of it could be change going back to the sender and it could be someone moving from one wallet to another.

Above comments about CT are correct. However, even with CT, using math an observer can still verify that the coins spent are equal to the coins received. You just can't tell the number.

This is assuming you have the "Amount Key"?

smooth

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Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: americanpegasus on October 23, 2015, 05:00:30 AM

(Even as it still remains a commodity in the US)

It is a currency, a commodity, or property depending on who is defining it. Each agency defines it to maximize its own jurisdiction.

americanpegasus

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Activity: 770

Merit: 504

Quote from: smooth on October 23, 2015, 05:04:25 AM

Above comments about CT are correct. However, even with CT, using math an observer can still verify that the coins spent are equal to the coins received. You just can't tell the number.

It's not a bug. It's a feature. Wink

smooth

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Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: macsga on October 23, 2015, 04:46:02 AM

Greece won't be allowed to default; it would've happened a dozen of times within the last 6 years of recession.

Not on purpose no. Sometime accidents happen though. In 07 it was expected that a buyer could be found for Lehman, as is usually the case for large failing banks, but it didn't happen during that weekend and Monday TSHTF. That's how these crises occur usually, not by design. If something happens in Greece the details will be different but the outline will be the same.

smooth

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Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: smoothie on October 22, 2015, 11:26:13 PM

Quote from: chennan on October 22, 2015, 11:21:52 PM

Quote from: americanpegasus on October 22, 2015, 11:19:14 PM

I just saw a quote by a user that Monero has an "opaque blockchain" which I don't think is correct.

Monero has a private blockchain, in the the sender and receiver are always protected from knowing each other, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) the amount of money moving across the blockchain is still visible in some respects.

If someone sent 300,000 Monero across the blockchain, then observers would be able to see that a large amount of money moved today but not be able to pin it down to a particular user or transaction time (with proper mixin settings)

I thought that with the new CT ring developments coming out, people wouldn't be able to tell what amount of monero is being transacted unless you have the right key which shows you the amount for that particular transaction? Wouldn't this be a non issue with the upcoming developments?

In theory yes. It has not been implemented yet into monero so testing needs to happen over months to come.

For now AP is right you can see how much is moved and when. But not who sent to who specifically.

Also you can't really tell it moved between two people. Much of it could be change going back to the sender and it could be someone moving from one wallet to another.

Above comments about CT are correct. However, even with CT, using math an observer can still verify that the coins spent are equal to the coins received. You just can't tell the number.

americanpegasus

hero member

Activity: 770

Merit: 504

Quote from: owm123 on October 23, 2015, 04:56:28 AM

Do you think whether, as time progresses, these blockchain alliance and EU tax-free bitcoin news will have beneficial (or negative) effect on monero?

I think it would be extremely difficult or impossible to rule that Bitcoin is a currency and Monero is not. From my perspective, that ruling just made Monero officially a currency as well. (Even as it still remains a commodity in the US)

This has a lot of far reaching implications, some of which I can't even grasp right now. I think it definitely is yet another crack in the dam that holds back a flood of the worlds traditional value from flooding into crypto, and I have no doubts that *if* we see a big cryptorush next spring that many will feel they've missed the boat with Bitcoin and start looking for the "next opportunity".

What happens next may well blow all of us away.

owm123

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Do you think whether, as time progresses, these blockchain alliance and EU tax-free bitcoin news will have beneficial (or negative) effect on monero?

macsga

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Strange, yet attractive.

Quote from: Quicken on October 23, 2015, 04:00:57 AM

Quote from: owm123 on October 22, 2015, 10:27:45 PM

The problem is that regular people don't even know what Fungiblilty means. And most not even care, unless the effects of its lack in bitcoin will start causing problems.

It's worth remembering that the euro has questionable fungibility:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/euros-not-fungible-1097116

The world will wake up to fungibility if Greece is ever allowed to actually default.
Q

Greece won't be allowed to default; it would've happened a dozen of times within the last 6 years of recession. EU is based on its "austerity measures" to dictate its economic totalitarianism to other "default candidates" within the EU, via the Greek paradigm "see what happened in Greece?". Oversimplifying a disastrous economic attitude to contain the 0.3% of the EU GDP via erratic orders simply won't make it any better.

IMHO Dijsselbloem et al should quit politics that ruin the whole EU continent and contain themselves to what they do better; getting their fat paychecks from the Banksters & IMF for kissing their asses.

Quicken

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Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: owm123 on October 22, 2015, 10:27:45 PM

The problem is that regular people don't even know what Fungiblilty means. And most not even care, unless the effects of its lack in bitcoin will start causing problems.

It's worth remembering that the euro has questionable fungibility:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/euros-not-fungible-1097116

The world will wake up to fungibility if Greece is ever allowed to actually default.
Q

othe

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

Quote from: 8XMR on October 22, 2015, 11:31:08 PM

Quote from: smoothie on October 22, 2015, 11:26:13 PM

Quote from: chennan on October 22, 2015, 11:21:52 PM

Quote from: americanpegasus on October 22, 2015, 11:19:14 PM

I just saw a quote by a user that Monero has an "opaque blockchain" which I don't think is correct.

Monero has a private blockchain, in the the sender and receiver are always protected from knowing each other, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) the amount of money moving across the blockchain is still visible in some respects.

If someone sent 300,000 Monero across the blockchain, then observers would be able to see that a large amount of money moved today but not be able to pin it down to a particular user or transaction time (with proper mixin settings)

I thought that with the new CT ring developments coming out, people wouldn't be able to tell what amount of monero is being transacted unless you have the right key which shows you the amount for that particular transaction? Wouldn't this be a non issue with the upcoming developments?

In theory yes. It has not been implemented yet into monero so testing needs to happen over months to come.

For now AP is right you can see how much is moved and when. But not who sent to who specifically.

It is important that Monero implement CT before anyone else.

Let´s stay with calling it RingCT for Monero, as its fundamentally different from CT, has a reason we call it MG Sig.

Quote from: digicoin on October 23, 2015, 02:08:53 AM

Compact CT is the way to go. I think that Compact CT will significantly improve Monero's image and push up investor adoption. Zerocash (if implemented) has no advantage after that

We´ll see, the current CCT isn´t.

digicoin

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Compact CT is the way to go. I think that Compact CT will significantly improve Monero's image and push up investor adoption. Zerocash (if implemented) has no advantage after that

smoothie

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LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: LucyLovesCrypto on October 23, 2015, 01:03:11 AM

Quote from: 8XMR on October 22, 2015, 11:31:08 PM

Quote from: smoothie on October 22, 2015, 11:26:13 PM

Quote from: chennan on October 22, 2015, 11:21:52 PM

Quote from: americanpegasus on October 22, 2015, 11:19:14 PM

I just saw a quote by a user that Monero has an "opaque blockchain" which I don't think is correct.

Monero has a private blockchain, in the the sender and receiver are always protected from knowing each other, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) the amount of money moving across the blockchain is still visible in some respects.

If someone sent 300,000 Monero across the blockchain, then observers would be able to see that a large amount of money moved today but not be able to pin it down to a particular user or transaction time (with proper mixin settings)

I thought that with the new CT ring developments coming out, people wouldn't be able to tell what amount of monero is being transacted unless you have the right key which shows you the amount for that particular transaction? Wouldn't this be a non issue with the upcoming developments?

In theory yes. It has not been implemented yet into monero so testing needs to happen over months to come.

For now AP is right you can see how much is moved and when. But not who sent to who specifically.

It is important that Monero implement CT before anyone else.

What other coin is working on adding CT?

None I am aware of. But i wouldnt be surprised if one is trying to implement it quietly

LucyLovesCrypto

sr. member

Activity: 414

Merit: 251

Quote from: 8XMR on October 22, 2015, 11:31:08 PM

Quote from: smoothie on October 22, 2015, 11:26:13 PM

Quote from: chennan on October 22, 2015, 11:21:52 PM

Quote from: americanpegasus on October 22, 2015, 11:19:14 PM

I just saw a quote by a user that Monero has an "opaque blockchain" which I don't think is correct.

Monero has a private blockchain, in the the sender and receiver are always protected from knowing each other, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) the amount of money moving across the blockchain is still visible in some respects.

If someone sent 300,000 Monero across the blockchain, then observers would be able to see that a large amount of money moved today but not be able to pin it down to a particular user or transaction time (with proper mixin settings)

I thought that with the new CT ring developments coming out, people wouldn't be able to tell what amount of monero is being transacted unless you have the right key which shows you the amount for that particular transaction? Wouldn't this be a non issue with the upcoming developments?

In theory yes. It has not been implemented yet into monero so testing needs to happen over months to come.

For now AP is right you can see how much is moved and when. But not who sent to who specifically.

It is important that Monero implement CT before anyone else.

What other coin is working on adding CT?

8XMR

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Activity: 88

Merit: 10

Quote from: smoothie on October 22, 2015, 11:26:13 PM

Quote from: chennan on October 22, 2015, 11:21:52 PM

Quote from: americanpegasus on October 22, 2015, 11:19:14 PM

I just saw a quote by a user that Monero has an "opaque blockchain" which I don't think is correct.

Monero has a private blockchain, in the the sender and receiver are always protected from knowing each other, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) the amount of money moving across the blockchain is still visible in some respects.

If someone sent 300,000 Monero across the blockchain, then observers would be able to see that a large amount of money moved today but not be able to pin it down to a particular user or transaction time (with proper mixin settings)

I thought that with the new CT ring developments coming out, people wouldn't be able to tell what amount of monero is being transacted unless you have the right key which shows you the amount for that particular transaction? Wouldn't this be a non issue with the upcoming developments?

In theory yes. It has not been implemented yet into monero so testing needs to happen over months to come.

For now AP is right you can see how much is moved and when. But not who sent to who specifically.

It is important that Monero implement CT before anyone else.

smoothie

legendary

Activity: 2492

Merit: 1491

LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: chennan on October 22, 2015, 11:21:52 PM

Quote from: americanpegasus on October 22, 2015, 11:19:14 PM

I just saw a quote by a user that Monero has an "opaque blockchain" which I don't think is correct.

Monero has a private blockchain, in the the sender and receiver are always protected from knowing each other, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) the amount of money moving across the blockchain is still visible in some respects.

If someone sent 300,000 Monero across the blockchain, then observers would be able to see that a large amount of money moved today but not be able to pin it down to a particular user or transaction time (with proper mixin settings)

I thought that with the new CT ring developments coming out, people wouldn't be able to tell what amount of monero is being transacted unless you have the right key which shows you the amount for that particular transaction? Wouldn't this be a non issue with the upcoming developments?

In theory yes. It has not been implemented yet into monero so testing needs to happen over months to come.

For now AP is right you can see how much is moved and when. But not who sent to who specifically.

smoothie

legendary

Activity: 2492

Merit: 1491

LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: ArticMine on October 22, 2015, 11:04:26 PM

Quote from: smoothie on October 22, 2015, 08:44:32 PM

Quote from: ArticMine on October 22, 2015, 08:10:56 PM

Bitcoin still has to deal with the related issues of the 1 MB blocksize limit and the development of a fee market for when the emission runs out. Both of these issues will over time prove to be fatal. Monero has both of them fixed. Bitcoin can buy some time by increasing the blocksize limit in a hard fork, but I do not see a solution to the question of securing the network once the emission runs out.

The privacy / fungibility of Monero will in the end turn out to be by comparison just a bonus.

As Trace Mayer eluded to, transaction privacy is much more of an important topic with bitcoin than the block size as of right now.

Emission of bitcoin won't run out for what like 4 decades? I dont know the exact number of years.

Bitcoin transactions aren't taking up the full 1MB yet but at the same time there has been countless hours of discussions, trolling, conferences, travel, phone calls etc that are all billable hours yet it isn't that big of an issue to the people hiring bitcoin to do what it is they want bitcoin to do.

Yes, but this ignores the impact of cross chain mixing. If Monero were to grow to a size that could threaten Bitcoin, normal trading between Bitcoin and Monero would make most Bitcoin blockchain analysis very difficult if not impossible. Even today a simple way to mix Bitcoin is to sell Bitcoin for Monero, run the XMR through the Monero network with say a mixin of 5 and then trade the Monero back for Bitcoin. If the amounts are below typical AML/KNC levels this can be done both legally and anonymously. By the way the ratio of the emission to the number of coins of Bitcoin will be below that of Monero in about 13 years. (1.5625 XBT per 10 min vs 3 XMR per 10 min). This is a lot sooner that many realize. As for the 1 MB blocksize limit if there is any significant growth in Bitcoin the impact will be felt when transactions simply do not confirm.

My take is that are "good enough" privacy / fungibility fixes for Bitcoin, including ironically Monero itself. The issues I have raised are fundamentally fatal and cannot be easily fixed.

Edit: Take care of the longterm and the short term will take care of itself. The reverse is not the case.

We need to see how things pan out. There is so much going on in this world and the implications of cryptocurrency and how it fits into our world is going to be mind boggling.

Your topics are definitely ones to consider but I do not think one is more important than another. I think they are all issues and over time we dont know what the future will throw at us to know which of these issues truly is going to be of utmost attention to consider.

With monero it seems all bases are covered. SO that is a good thing.

So much info to consider. Tongue

chennan

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Quote from: americanpegasus on October 22, 2015, 11:19:14 PM

I just saw a quote by a user that Monero has an "opaque blockchain" which I don't think is correct.

Monero has a private blockchain, in the the sender and receiver are always protected from knowing each other, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) the amount of money moving across the blockchain is still visible in some respects.

If someone sent 300,000 Monero across the blockchain, then observers would be able to see that a large amount of money moved today but not be able to pin it down to a particular user or transaction time (with proper mixin settings)

I thought that with the new CT ring developments coming out, people wouldn't be able to tell what amount of monero is being transacted unless you have the right key which shows you the amount for that particular transaction? Wouldn't this be a non issue with the upcoming developments?

americanpegasus

hero member

Activity: 770

Merit: 504

I just saw a quote by a user that Monero has an "opaque blockchain" which I don't think is correct.

Monero has a private blockchain, in that the sender and receiver are always protected from knowing each other, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) the amount of money moving across the blockchain is still visible in some respects.

If someone sent 300,000 Monero across the blockchain, then observers would be able to see that a large amount of money moved today but not be able to pin it down to a particular user or transaction time (with proper mixin settings)

Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1684. (Read 3313576 times)