Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1915. (Read 3314330 times)

Quote from: mmortal03 on May 03, 2015, 10:41:13 AM

I have no problem figuring out capital gains on XBT or XMR and paying the appropriate tax to the Canadian government. I do have a big problem with DRM and bootloader locked devices. The real evil is corporations such as Microsoft and Apple that push DRM to meet the greed of organizations such as the MPAA.

But you are completely free to use alternatives to their devices. The state is the only thing that could, at-least in theory, even conceivably be able to enforce the monopoly that would be necessary in order to cause drm bootloader locked devices to negatively impact your life in any serious way.

Dont get me wrong im not saying that apple and microsoft aren't evil. But what harm is an evil dog without teeth? The state is the teeth in the mouth of evil corporations.

Have you tried to purchase a mobile device that is not bootloader locked? Ever heard of the PRISM program? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29 In the PRISM program the state uses corporate teeth to bite not the other way around.

Edit: Corporations are the teeth in the mouths of evil states.

ArticMine

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Quote from: farfiman on May 03, 2015, 10:11:58 AM

...snip
I have no problem figuring out capital gains on XBT or XMR and paying the appropriate tax to the Canadian government. I do have a big problem with DRM and bootloader locked devices. The real evil is corporations such as Microsoft and Apple that push DRM to meet the greed of organizations such as the MPAA. If they had their way I would not be able to use XBT or XMR, would not have any of the capital gains and would not have to pay said taxes.
...snip

How? Let's say you start using crypto on a daily basis- lets say 3-5 times a day. Coffee on the way to work, fill gas, buy an online newspaper, a game on playstation, and chinese food in the evening. 1000-1500 transactions in a tax year - most of them small.
How?

Exactly. And, FIFO, right? Have fun with that, buying Bitcoins, then buying Moneroj, and doing your taxes on each of *those* conversions, as well as on each purchase.

Actually FIFO is easier that the Canadian adjusted cost base system. I use a spreadsheet on LibreOffice calc to calculate this. Yes one does have to keep track of all expenses, but that has the added advantage of promoting fiscal prudence among citizens. In most "developed" countries the rise in poverty and the fall of the middle class is driven by debt fuelled consumption as opposed to falling incomes. This is why we see citizens and governments with ever increasing debt and corporations with ever increasing cash reserves. If the tax system makes consumption inconvenient by forcing people to track expenses that is actually a good thing. I do agree with don't buy, it is actually the easiest path to wealth for many people. A good place to start is propriety operating system licenses and bootloader locked devices.

By the way don't buy also applies to governments who could save billions of dollars by saying no to the likes of Microsoft and using FLOSS instead.

Anon136

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Quote from: farfiman on May 03, 2015, 10:11:58 AM

I have no problem figuring out capital gains on XBT or XMR and paying the appropriate tax to the Canadian government. I do have a big problem with DRM and bootloader locked devices. The real evil is corporations such as Microsoft and Apple that push DRM to meet the greed of organizations such as the MPAA.

But you are completely free to use alternatives to their devices. The state is the only thing that could, at-least in theory, even conceivably be able to enforce the monopoly that would be necessary in order to cause drm bootloader locked devices to negatively impact your life in any serious way.

Dont get me wrong im not saying that apple and microsoft aren't evil. But what harm is an evil dog without teeth? The state is the teeth in the mouth of evil corporations.

mmortal03

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...snip
I have no problem figuring out capital gains on XBT or XMR and paying the appropriate tax to the Canadian government. I do have a big problem with DRM and bootloader locked devices. The real evil is corporations such as Microsoft and Apple that push DRM to meet the greed of organizations such as the MPAA. If they had their way I would not be able to use XBT or XMR, would not have any of the capital gains and would not have to pay said taxes.
...snip

How? Let's say you start using crypto on a daily basis- lets say 3-5 times a day. Coffee on the way to work, fill gas, buy an online newspaper, a game on playstation, and chinese food in the evening. 1000-1500 transactions in a tax year - most of them small.
How?

Exactly. And, FIFO, right? Have fun with that, buying Bitcoins, then buying Moneroj, and doing your taxes on each of *those* conversions, as well as on each purchase.

ArticMine

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Quote from: ?? on ??

The real threat is not governments. It is corporations such as Microsoft and Apple who use DRM to control their customers for their own profit.

Hey, corporations aren't the ones putting a gun to your head and forcing you to pay. Don't like, don't buy.

I expect XMR price to continue decline for a while.

The pen is mightier that the sword and corporations are using DRM to control the pen. That is why DRM is so evil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pen_is_mightier_than_the_sword

Edit: The sword does have some uses. Here is an excellent example of using the sword to liberate the pen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuQZTAJ2KLk

farfiman

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Quote from: rpietila on May 03, 2015, 08:47:16 AM

...snip
I have no problem figuring out capital gains on XBT or XMR and paying the appropriate tax to the Canadian government. I do have a big problem with DRM and bootloader locked devices. The real evil is corporations such as Microsoft and Apple that push DRM to meet the greed of organizations such as the MPAA. If they had their way I would not be able to use XBT or XMR, would not have any of the capital gains and would not have to pay said taxes.
...snip

How? Let's say you start using crypto on a daily basis- lets say 3-5 times a day. Coffee on the way to work, fill gas, buy an online newspaper, a game on playstation, and chinese food in the evening. 1000-1500 transactions in a tax year - most of them small.
How?

ArticMine

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Government's public purpose is to provide public services. But its real purpose is to be a power monopoly. They are in a difficult position, because if they care too much of the services for the people, they end up being attacked by other governments. If they care only for their staying in power, they end up becoming tyrannies and also succumb to bloody revolutions.

People should try to stay away from these power games. The more I have read and heard about history, governments are always the same. Follow your conscience.

The real threat is not governments. It is corporations such as Microsoft and Apple who use DRM to control their customers for their own profit. A perfect example of this fast growing problem is the following support request:

Quote from: ArticMine on May 02, 2015, 10:11:21 PM

Quote from: Sarthak on May 02, 2015, 08:27:26 AM

Hey I'm using windows 8.1 RT and I cant download anything from outside except the store and the Store Doesn't have any Bitcoin related Applications! Now how do I setup a cold wallet? Sad

You can't. Windows 8.1 RT can best be described as a Portable Orwellian Telescreen. Only those applications authorized by Big Brother (Microsoft and the MPAA) are permitted and Bitcoin is not one of them. I would recommend a computer running GNU/Linux for anything related to Bitcoin.

I have no problem figuring out capital gains on XBT or XMR and paying the appropriate tax to the Canadian government. I do have a big problem with DRM and bootloader locked devices. The real evil is corporations such as Microsoft and Apple that push DRM to meet the greed of organizations such as the MPAA. If they had their way I would not be able to use XBT or XMR, would not have any of the capital gains and would not have to pay said taxes.

Every time one pays for or supports any DRM infected content one is supporting an evil that is many times worse than the vast majority of governments on the planet.

mmortal03

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Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 08:24:16 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on May 02, 2015, 10:03:25 AM

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins. Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

Say you actually wanted to comply with such a law, where every crypto transaction might have capital gains implications. Am I really expected to keep a receipt of every single purchase I make with a cryptocurrency? Explain to me how one should even begin to keep such records for compliance if I buy things with Monero?

rpietila

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Government's public purpose is to provide public services. But its real purpose is to be a power monopoly. They are in a difficult position, because if they care too much of the services for the people, they end up being attacked by other governments. If they care only for their staying in power, they end up becoming tyrannies and also succumb to bloody revolutions.

People should try to stay away from these power games. The more I have read and heard about history, governments are always the same. Follow your conscience.

MalMen

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Quote from: jehst on May 03, 2015, 04:23:16 AM

Quote from: Erik Goff on May 03, 2015, 03:21:55 AM

For example, i pay 10 cents to have my trash removed, or 10 cents every time when i flush the toilet. ... Labor based tax ( the one people want to hide form their gov) is obsolete. with utility-based tax, governments are reduced back to what they should do: provide services for citizens.

I don't think so. Our most expensive life purchases are real estate and vehicles. We can't hide either one. If people use cryptocurrency to hide their income sources, then governments will just tax us more on what they can see. They'll simply assume you're making a certain salary if you own a certain type of property and drive a certain type of car.

If you don't pay up, they just seize your house and car.

In addition, they'll increase the sales tax on physical goods. And if you have a physical store selling physical goods, you won't be able to hide your activity there.

(Of course, you can take advantage of this system if you're wealthy by living your whole life in a low-end house driving a low-end car and not consuming physical goods. Then, congratulations, you die a winner tax-wise.)

I agree with that.... For example, in my country its iligal to be free energy independent, if you have solar panels that produce all you need to your house you cannot use that power for free, you need allways to sell that power and buy it again so the governament can tax it... i imagine that they will not like an currency that they cannot control at all

jehst

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21 million. I want them all.

Quote from: Erik Goff on May 03, 2015, 03:21:55 AM

For example, i pay 10 cents to have my trash removed, or 10 cents every time when i flush the toilet. ... Labor based tax ( the one people want to hide form their gov) is obsolete. with utility-based tax, governments are reduced back to what they should do: provide services for citizens.

I don't think so. Our most expensive life purchases are real estate and vehicles. We can't hide either one. If people use cryptocurrency to hide their income sources, then governments will just tax us more on what they can see. They'll simply assume you're making a certain salary if you own a certain type of property and drive a certain type of car.

If you don't pay up, they just seize your house and car.

In addition, they'll increase the sales tax on physical goods. And if you have a physical store selling physical goods, you won't be able to hide your activity there.

(Of course, you can take advantage of this system if you're wealthy by living your whole life in a low-end house driving a low-end car and not consuming physical goods. Then, congratulations, you die a winner tax-wise.)

Erik Goff

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https://assetsplit.org/

Quote from: smooth on May 03, 2015, 01:40:11 AM

One of the things that technology does (all forms of technology, not just cryptocurrency) is change the conditions on the ground which create the context in which civilization is built and organized. So ultimately I have no doubt that one way or another people will be paying their fair share, but those ways will change, just as they have many times in the past.

I couldn't agree more. I believe crypto is going to force governments to change to 'utility-based tax' which is a good thing. For example, i pay 10 cents to have my trash removed, or 10 cents every time when i flush the toilet. Crypto/the internet of things makes this possible, and it could be the savior of the 'tragedy of the commons'. Labor based tax ( the one people want to hide form their gov) is obsolete. with utility-based tax, governments are reduced back to what they should do: provide services for citizens.

smooth

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Quote from: shmadz on May 02, 2015, 09:45:31 PM

Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 08:24:16 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on May 02, 2015, 10:03:25 AM

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins. Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

I'm hoping there will be a state or jurisdiction that will embrace crypto, somewhere in the world, sometime within the next few years.

I'm expecting that this hypothetical state would gain a great deal of intellectual immigration and we should see a new "brain drain" from nations that oppose crypto ( not just crypto currency, but as some nations are now considering making crypto that has no back door illegal.)

Either my country embraces freedom and privacy, or I'm gonna be looking for alternatives.

Don't me started on my crypto war scenario. It's not a pretty picture and the outlines are already visible. Not good.

smooth

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Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 10:17:45 PM

Quote from: Hueristic on May 02, 2015, 10:01:18 PM

Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 09:49:20 PM

Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 08:24:16 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on May 02, 2015, 10:03:25 AM

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins. Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

So you are... comparing paying taxes to killing jews and burying them in mass graves? ooooook. Seems a stretch.

No, he is pointing out the absurdity of your global statement.

So its absurd to follow laws concerning taxation? We have a name for people who do that..they are called criminals. Maybe you have read about a few or even know a few personally? If you think Monero or cryptocurrencies are some panacea that will get people out of paying their fair share...you are sadly mistaken.

One of the things that technology does (all forms of technology, not just cryptocurrency) is change the conditions on the ground which create the context in which civilization is built and organized. So ultimately I have no doubt that one way or another people will be paying their fair share, but those ways will change, just as they have many times in the past.

Johnny Mnemonic

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Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 08:24:16 PM

So its absurd to follow laws concerning taxation? We have a name for people who do that..they are called criminals.

If you follow laws you don't believe in, you're a criminal to humanity, and are responsible for some of the worst atrocities known to man.

jehst

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21 million. I want them all.

Quote from: cAPSLOCK on May 02, 2015, 02:51:29 PM

I know "don't quote the trolls", but what about when it is funny?

I really enjoy the troll compilation posts. When their posts are all together in once place, you can really see how small their vocabularies are.

Hueristic

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Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it

Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 10:17:45 PM

So its absurd to follow laws concerning taxation? We have a name for people who do that..they are called criminals. Maybe you have read about a few or even know a few personally? If you think Monero or cryptocurrencies are some panacea that will get people out of paying their fair share...you are sadly mistaken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

Anon136

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Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 10:17:45 PM

Quote from: Hueristic on May 02, 2015, 10:01:18 PM

Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 09:49:20 PM

Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 08:24:16 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on May 02, 2015, 10:03:25 AM

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins. Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

So you are... comparing paying taxes to killing jews and burying them in mass graves? ooooook. Seems a stretch.

No, he is pointing out the absurdity of your global statement.

So its absurd to follow laws concerning taxation? We have a name for people who do that..they are called criminals. Maybe you have read about a few or even know a few personally? If you think Monero or cryptocurrencies are some panacea that will get people out of paying their fair share...you are sadly mistaken.

holy strawman

QuantumQrack

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Quote from: Hueristic on May 02, 2015, 10:01:18 PM

Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 09:49:20 PM

Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 08:24:16 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on May 02, 2015, 10:03:25 AM

Cross-chain mixing works for some purposes, but Putin/Kirchner/Obama's tax thugs and lickspittle corporatists will demand to know the origin of your coins. Which is effectively a whitelisting approach putting the burden of proof on the user to prove their innocence against the presumption of guilt.

Right, what do you do when you buy something with such spent Bitcoins or Moneroj, when they come back and say, "We know you bought such and such with these, because it was shipped to your address. We now need a verifiable record of when and where you bought them, because you now potentially owe capital gains taxes on them."

I would advise everybody to just follow the rule of the law in your particular jurisdiction. :-)

I couldn't agree more. You should definitely always follow the states instructions.

So you are... comparing paying taxes to killing jews and burying them in mass graves? ooooook. Seems a stretch.

No, he is pointing out the absurdity of your global statement.

So its absurd to follow laws concerning taxation? We have a name for people who do that..they are called criminals. Maybe you have read about a few or even know a few personally? If you think Monero or cryptocurrencies are some panacea that will get people out of paying their fair share...you are sadly mistaken.

Hueristic

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Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it

Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 09:49:20 PM

Quote from: QuantumQrack on May 02, 2015, 08:24:16 PM