Topic: [∞ YH] solo.ckpool.org 2% fee solo mining USA/DE 255 blocks solved! - page 370. (Read 1514894 times)

Quote from: NiceHashSupport on May 17, 2015, 11:41:13 AM

...
Best share isn't relevant at all since it's only a few lines of code to withhold blocks but always submit all shares that are not a block.
... and I know coz I wrote the original small bit of code in cgminer that identified the blocks and reported them in cgminer.

... and I've no idea what that guy from the hash place is going on about.
It is as jonnybravo0311 said above and as I posted in my thread.
Does the hash guy not understand how mining works?

It's simple, if you rent mining power, you must trust the source of the mining power.
There is no way for you to verify if they are withholding blocks from you without a VERY large amount of data.
And just to make it worse, they could easily withhold 3 out of every 4 blocks they find and it would be next to impossible to show they are doing that.
It is a clear and present risk.
Ignore the hash guy further above with the vested interest in this.

But it is also an attack that does not benefit miner at all. Except very large farms to benefit from possible tiny bit lower difficulty. And the bigger the farm, the more chances such attack can be identified. We think there are not enough pros for any big farm to get into this and so far, we also have no proofs of any farm doing this so these claims are just pure speculations.

The claims are not speculation.
It is something that is easy to do and something that does have an effect on the pool being mined on.
... and on top of that, there have been cases of block withholding.
The most recent one was on Eligius where the person block withholding still was getting paid, but the rest of the miners were paying for it.

Another effect is also blatantly obvious and that is the effect on the pool's luck.
If a smaller pool has regular bad luck, guess what (yeah I'm sure this level of thinking is beyond your pay grade) that will turn miners away from the pool.

...
I wouldn't talk about this publicly, because you just gave an idea to anyone to possibly rent SHA256 hashpower via own proxy (that witholds block shares) and send the rest to the pool. It is probably one of the methods how to destroy big PPS pools (with very little input).

Block withholding is OLD news and been happening for a long time (years)

loshia

legendary

Activity: 1610

Merit: 1000

Do you mean a real open sourced miner like spondo and others?
With buld firmware by you or someone who you trust?
To be honest 90 % of hardware runs like it is and nobody gives a shit what is going inside ....

philipma1957

legendary

Activity: 4354

Merit: 9201

'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: NiceHashSupport on May 17, 2015, 11:41:13 AM

Quote from: philipma1957 on May 17, 2015, 11:27:43 AM

Quote from: philipma1957 on May 17, 2015, 11:27:43 AM

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Best share isn't relevant at all since it's only a few lines of code to withhold blocks but always submit all shares that are not a block.
... and I know coz I wrote the original small bit of code in cgminer that identified the blocks and reported them in cgminer.

... and I've no idea what that guy from the hash place is going on about.
It is as jonnybravo0311 said above and as I posted in my thread.
Does the hash guy not understand how mining works?

It's simple, if you rent mining power, you must trust the source of the mining power.
There is no way for you to verify if they are withholding blocks from you without a VERY large amount of data.
And just to make it worse, they could easily withhold 3 out of every 4 blocks they find and it would be next to impossible to show they are doing that.
It is a clear and present risk.
Ignore the hash guy further above with the vested interest in this.

Well I have made 1 block with hash rented from nicehash .

I made it on www.mmpool.org

and to say we must trust the company renting hash to us to point to a pool in every case except a pool like f2pool is true.

the real danger of renting bad hash is not at this pool.

The real danger is sending 1 ph a day in 'bad' rentals to f2pool if f2pool fails to detect this they payout.

1 ph of dead hash to f2pool would cost them almost 9.4 coins a day

So attacking f2pool with 5 ph of bad hash form 3 or 4 renting spots could cost f2pool a lot of coins.

close to 50 coins a day.

If any one needs to be on guard it is f2pool.

If I rent 1 ph at 10 btc paying a 3% fee to do so I get 9.7 btc rental credit and f2pool pay me 96% I get back 9.312 coins

so I lose .688 btc and I cost f2pool 9.312 btc a day

this is with 1ph of rentals so in 10 days I spend 6.88 btc and f2pool pays 93.12 btc to me which is a loss.

So of every pool in the world f2pool could lose more then any one.

I think spending 0.688 btc per day to cost 9.312 btc in damage per day to f2pool might attract some people.

I wouldn't talk about this publicly, because you just gave an idea to anyone to possibly rent SHA256 hashpower via own proxy (that witholds block shares) and send the rest to the pool. It is probably one of the methods how to destroy big PPS pools (with very little input).

Well while some would say don't give anyone ideas. This idea has been around here and there my guess is this is why very few PPS pools are around as this risk is there and is very hard to stop.

A year ago When the block withholding issues happened with two large pools. One was BTCguild I forget the other. I pushed for good well known people to do solo pools like this one since a solo pool is good protection from block withholding. Ck started his up and while I have not hit a block with him I always have a 'real' miner pointed to him.

http://solo.ckpool.org/users/1JdC6Xg3ajT3rge3FgPNSYYFpmf53Vbtje

When I rent from nice/west hash to mine:
1) here
2) kano's pool
3) f2pool
4) antpool.

I always do 3 to 4 rentals to get the total. It does help with this 'dead' hash issue. I also use 2 workers at the pools.

loshia

legendary

Activity: 1610

Merit: 1000

Shall we talk about all CLOSED SOURCE HARDWARE WITHOUT EXEPTIONS Wink

Block withholding is a super way to max their profits even more..

NiceHashSupport

hero member

Activity: 588

Merit: 501

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Best share isn't relevant at all since it's only a few lines of code to withhold blocks but always submit all shares that are not a block.
... and I know coz I wrote the original small bit of code in cgminer that identified the blocks and reported them in cgminer.

... and I've no idea what that guy from the hash place is going on about.
It is as jonnybravo0311 said above and as I posted in my thread.
Does the hash guy not understand how mining works?

It's simple, if you rent mining power, you must trust the source of the mining power.
There is no way for you to verify if they are withholding blocks from you without a VERY large amount of data.
And just to make it worse, they could easily withhold 3 out of every 4 blocks they find and it would be next to impossible to show they are doing that.
It is a clear and present risk.
Ignore the hash guy further above with the vested interest in this.

Well I have made 1 block with hash rented from nicehash .

I made it on www.mmpool.org

and to say we must trust the company renting hash to us to point to a pool in every case except a pool like f2pool is true.

the real danger of renting bad hash is not at this pool.

The real danger is sending 1 ph a day in 'bad' rentals to f2pool if f2pool fails to detect this they payout.

1 ph of dead hash to f2pool would cost them almost 9.4 coins a day

So attacking f2pool with 5 ph of bad hash form 3 or 4 renting spots could cost f2pool a lot of coins.

close to 50 coins a day.

If any one needs to be on guard it is f2pool.

If I rent 1 ph at 10 btc paying a 3% fee to do so I get 9.7 btc rental credit and f2pool pay me 96% I get back 9.312 coins

so I lose .688 btc and I cost f2pool 9.312 btc a day

this is with 1ph of rentals so in 10 days I spend 6.88 btc and f2pool pays 93.12 btc to me which is a loss.

So of every pool in the world f2pool could lose more then any one.

I think spending 0.688 btc per day to cost 9.312 btc in damage per day to f2pool might attract some people.

I wouldn't talk about this publicly, because you just gave an idea to anyone to possibly rent SHA256 hashpower via own proxy (that witholds block shares) and send the rest to the pool. It is probably one of the methods how to destroy big PPS pools (with very little input).

philipma1957

legendary

Activity: 4354

Merit: 9201

'The right to privacy matters'

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Best share isn't relevant at all since it's only a few lines of code to withhold blocks but always submit all shares that are not a block.
... and I know coz I wrote the original small bit of code in cgminer that identified the blocks and reported them in cgminer.

... and I've no idea what that guy from the hash place is going on about.
It is as jonnybravo0311 said above and as I posted in my thread.
Does the hash guy not understand how mining works?

It's simple, if you rent mining power, you must trust the source of the mining power.
There is no way for you to verify if they are withholding blocks from you without a VERY large amount of data.
And just to make it worse, they could easily withhold 3 out of every 4 blocks they find and it would be next to impossible to show they are doing that.
It is a clear and present risk.
Ignore the hash guy further above with the vested interest in this.

Well I have made 1 block with hash rented from nicehash .

I made it on www.mmpool.org

and to say we must trust the company renting hash to us to point to a pool in every case except a pool like f2pool is true.

the real danger of renting bad hash is not at this pool.

The real danger is sending 1 ph a day in 'bad' rentals to f2pool if f2pool fails to detect this they payout.

1 ph of dead hash to f2pool would cost them almost 9.4 coins a day

So attacking f2pool with 5 ph of bad hash form 3 or 4 renting spots could cost f2pool a lot of coins.

close to 50 coins a day.

If any one needs to be on guard it is f2pool.

If I rent 1 ph at 10 btc paying a 3% fee to do so I get 9.7 btc rental credit and f2pool pay me 96% I get back 9.312 coins

so I lose .688 btc and I cost f2pool 9.312 btc a day

this is with 1ph of rentals so in 10 days I spend 6.88 btc and f2pool pays 93.12 btc to me which is a loss.

So of every pool in the world f2pool could lose more then any one.

I think spending 0.688 btc per day to cost 9.312 btc in damage per day to f2pool might attract some people.

NiceHashSupport

hero member

Activity: 588

Merit: 501

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Best share isn't relevant at all since it's only a few lines of code to withhold blocks but always submit all shares that are not a block.
... and I know coz I wrote the original small bit of code in cgminer that identified the blocks and reported them in cgminer.

... and I've no idea what that guy from the hash place is going on about.
It is as jonnybravo0311 said above and as I posted in my thread.
Does the hash guy not understand how mining works?

It's simple, if you rent mining power, you must trust the source of the mining power.
There is no way for you to verify if they are withholding blocks from you without a VERY large amount of data.
And just to make it worse, they could easily withhold 3 out of every 4 blocks they find and it would be next to impossible to show they are doing that.
It is a clear and present risk.
Ignore the hash guy further above with the vested interest in this.

But it is also an attack that does not benefit miner at all. Except very large farms to benefit from possible tiny bit lower difficulty. And the bigger the farm, the more chances such attack can be identified. We think there are not enough pros for any big farm to get into this and so far, we also have no proofs of any farm doing this so these claims are just pure speculations.

sorry2xs

legendary

Activity: 924

Merit: 1000

Dark Passenger Bitcoin miner 2013,Bitcoin node

on the same thought, If the dev.of cgminer are aware of block witholding isn't it possible to stop it within the cgminer code it self just asking.

kano

legendary

Activity: 4634

Merit: 1851

Linux since 1997 RedHat 4

Quote from: NiceHashSupport on May 17, 2015, 10:03:31 AM

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Best share isn't relevant at all since it's only a few lines of code to withhold blocks but always submit all shares that are not a block.
... and I know coz I wrote the original small bit of code in cgminer that identified the blocks and reported them in cgminer.

... and I've no idea what that guy from the hash place is going on about.
It is as jonnybravo0311 said above and as I posted in my thread.
Does the hash guy not understand how mining works?

It's simple, if you rent mining power, you must trust the source of the mining power.
There is no way for you to verify if they are withholding blocks from you without a VERY large amount of data.
And just to make it worse, they could easily withhold 3 out of every 4 blocks they find and it would be next to impossible to show they are doing that.
It is a clear and present risk.
Ignore the hash guy further above with the vested interest in this.

jonnybravo0311

legendary

Activity: 1344

Merit: 1024

Mine at Jonny's Pool

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Exactly, probably impossible to identify. And since all PPS pools (and others to some extent) are voulnerable to this type of attack (and PPS pools being here for several years) - the big question is, why this question was 'opened' by kano regarding rentals? To me, it looks like an attempt to discredit certain rental sites. All rental sites together have less than 10 PHs, but major PPS pools have more than 50 PHs. If anyone should be worried about this are large PPS pools rather than rentals, because these pools have the most to loose in events of such attacks.

Kano didn't open any question. I raised this very same point months ago. It is not a dig against any rental site in particular but rather is a risk people take when renting gear. When I rent I take the chance that the person who owns the gear is not acting maliciously. The gear owner could be doing exactly what is described: running hardware/software that either by design or by accident is withholding block solutions. There is absolutely no risk to the gear owner since he is getting paid by the rental site as long as he is providing shares. There is nothing you as the rental site owner can do to validate whether or not this is taking place.

Let's say that I write some code to the effect of "do not submit any shares that are of 40B or greater". How would you know that I'm withholding that? To you I'm still hashing away and regularly submitting shares. You think all is good and pay me. The renter is still getting the hash rate he paid for.

NiceHashSupport

hero member

Activity: 588

Merit: 501

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

Exactly, probably impossible to identify. And since all PPS pools (and others to some extent) are voulnerable to this type of attack (and PPS pools being here for several years) - the big question is, why this question was 'opened' by kano regarding rentals? To me, it looks like an attempt to discredit certain rental sites. All rental sites together have less than 10 PHs, but major PPS pools have more than 50 PHs. If anyone should be worried about this are large PPS pools rather than rentals, because these pools have the most to loose in events of such attacks.

cisahasa

legendary

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

just to clear things..
stealing blocks when renting rigs is not possible.
but blocking minergear to submit high shares to pool is possible,
or blocking rentalsite submitting high share from miner to pool is possible.
this will only gain waste of energy and leaving the possible blocks to other miners.
correct me if im wrong.

Yes you can't steal a block, but that is not what we've mentioned in any of this or at my link.

You can't leave a block to someone else.
You can simply stop a block by not submitting it and no pool can identify that you didn't submit it.

If you are mining at 1,000 difficulty, a 1,000 difficulty share is worth the same as a 10,000,000,000 difficulty share, so stopping high shares is pretty much irrelevant.

talking about the same thing. possible but irrelevant and stupid if done.
only way to measure possible blocking attacks is to compare your bestshare at long period, or pools expected shares when block is found, (ck solo has no expected shares stats and shares does not matter..).
and suchs attacks are really hard to identify, too many variables and the so much missed/called: "can vary greatly depending on your luck.."

kano

legendary

Activity: 4634

Merit: 1851

Linux since 1997 RedHat 4