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Topic: You should write two copies of your seed phrase. - page 2. (Read 614 times)

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18509
It seems that I need to learn more about some notions of algorithms and about the ECDLP signature system.
The bottom line is that there is nothing to worry about for many years or even decades.

Out of all the various parts of bitcoin, the bit which is the most vulnerable to quantum computers (via Shor's algorithm) is the elliptic curve itself, which means an attacker being able to take a public key and calculate its corresponding private key. Reverse engineering from addresses (rather than from public keys), mining, and many other parts of the protocol are less vulnerable because they use various hashes, which are far more quantum resistant than the ECDLP.

So at some point in the future we will likely fork to some new quantum resistant cryptography before quantum computers pose a serious risk. We don't need to make any decision regarding this for years or even decades, and indeed, making such decisions now would be a mistake given the entire field is in its infancy and any system we chose today would likely have been replaced by something else by the time it was actually relevant.

but on the other hand, it will be quite crucial, because it doesn't take long to break or crack the ECDLP signature system.
Don't forget that in such a scenario then almost all the encryption currently used across the entire internet will similarly be broken, including everything to do with the fiat banking system.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
But what if, you have 1,000 Bitcoins in your wallet, and you forget one word, JUST ONE WORD, and you have no copies of your seed phrase anywhere because "remembering 12 word is not that hard". You'll definitely know the true meaning of manual brute-forcing. Hahaha.

One missing word from the seed is not too much of a problem, I think that finding even three words is feasible with today's technology in some reasonable time. As time goes on computers will become more and more powerful and some who have really messed up with their backup hope to be able to discover their treasure chest.

Of course, a lot of bad things can be avoided if we take some basic precautions, and one of the basic ones is to understand that only one backup represents a big risk, but even 2 or 3 in the same location in some cases will not help if it is about ordinary paper.


I was merely making a point that the inconvenience of thinking about brute-forcing a word isn't worth the stress that the user would be going through if a simple back-up would have made him/her avoid all of the stress.

Personally, as posted, I like both digital, and physical back-ups for both convenience and redundancy.
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1703
airbet.io
-snip-
It seems that I need to learn more about some notions of algorithms and about the ECDLP signature system.
Thank you for explaining in detail.

-snip- A sufficiently powerful quantum computer (again, decades away) could easily break the ECDLP.
If in a few decades, a powerful enough quantum computer can break ECDLP, it will be a technological advance, but on the other hand, it will be quite crucial, because it doesn't take long to break or crack the ECDLP signature system.

what makes you confident in remembering the secret place where you stored your keys?
If I forget, I'll ask my wife. And as I said above, I can at least look for a physical back up in places I am likely to store one. If you forget your seed phrase, then you are shit outta luck.
In the end, we must have a trusted person to remind us of a secret we once made.
Maybe it's like a legacy that our children and grandchildren will remember.
Like a Treasure that has some clues to find it.

But it becomes an old technology that has many mysteries to be solved, but in modern times like this the way it is done will certainly be different.
There are many secret places that can be used to store anything and they can only be accessed by the owner and the rightful heir.

Any pleasant past events or any events that are memorable will be easy to remember, but not with complicated codes or random numbers, it is very difficult for anyone when it has entered the years.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18509
Be frank, aren't there some long poems that you learned so well in school that you still remember them word by word?
If yes, then I hope you got my point.
Of course. But as I pointed out in an older post which was quoted earlier in this thread, I am under no illusion that I could very easily forget such things through no fault of my own and with absolutely no warning. Anyone can have a stroke at any time. Anyone can simply trip and hit their head on the sidewalk at any time. Anyone can contract meningitis at any time. The number of possible ways your memory can be damaged cannot be counted. I don't like those odds, especially when it is so trivially easy to overcome them by simply writing your seed phrase on a piece of paper.

what makes you confident in remembering the secret place where you stored your keys?
If I forget, I'll ask my wife. And as I said above, I can at least look for a physical back up in places I am likely to store one. If you forget your seed phrase, then you are shit outta luck.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 772
Watch Bitcoin Documentary - https://t.ly/v0Nim
Memorizing isn't that hard or bad practice.
Only if you also have physical back ups. Relying only on your memory is very bad practice.
Be frank, aren't there some long poems that you learned so well in school that you still remember them word by word?
If yes, then I hope you got my point.

And if you get into crash or get a heart attack, develop dementia or something terrible happens, the first question is if you survive and the second question is, if you actually remember that you have bitcoins or in best case, where you saved your seeds.
You are more likely to remember where you physically put something than a list of words you just repeat to yourself over and over. And if you forget the location of your back up, you can at least look for it. If you forget your memorized seed phrase, your coins are gone.
-snip-
By the way, if you try to memorize 18 or 24 words, then you shouldn't trust your mind in this case because it's too much to properly remember for a long period of time. 12 words are fine!
12 words will also not be fine and you should not trust your mind completely. The human brain is indeed capable of remembering anything in the long run if it is trained, but the human brain also has an age. As we get older or enter the aging period the brain's ability will decrease slightly.
Senile dementia will be a problem if you have to remember 12 words without any copies.
If I am an old man with not so good memory, I wouldn't trust myself. Finally, everything comes down to what you are capable to handle. But guys, if you say that if you get stroke or heart attack or dementia or crush accident or fell from the mountain, etc, then I have a question, what makes you confident in remembering the secret place where you stored your keys? Let's be frank, in such extreme cases, our methods don't have any advantage. If you save your seeds in a place that's easy to reach for everyone, then you are not actually keeping your seeds safe and if you save it in a secret place that's hard to find for anyone and you experience extremely bad accident, then more likely you won't be able to recall that place and in extreme cases, you won't be able to even acknowledge that you had something saved. This applies to memorizing, if one is fucked, doesn't matter he/she memorizes or saves it in a secret safe place, the person is in trouble.

So, once again, I want to say that everything comes with a price!
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18509
Quantum computers that use Grover's algorithm in the case of breaking symmetric encryption algorithms such as AES (Advanced Encryption Standard) are only able to weaken their strength or reduce all possible encryption keys to half.
That's not accurate.

As I said above, Grover's algorithm allows a problem to be solved in the square root of n-time. Half of 2256 is 2255. Grover's algorithm reduces 2256 to the square root of 2256, which is 2128.

But in Bitcoin using the 256-bit ECDSA digital signature system, the possibility of encryption keys that can be done effectively Brute Force from 2256 to 2128.
If you are talking about solving the ECDLP, rather than brute forcing part of a seed phrase as above, then you are now talking about Shor's algorithm, not Grover's. Shor's runs in polylogarithmic time, and can factor a k bit number in k3 time. A sufficiently powerful quantum computer (again, decades away) could easily break the ECDLP.

Making more copies is risky too.
The best solution is to have a set up where compromise of one back up is insufficient to steal your coins, such as separate seed phrase and passphrase back ups, or a multi-sig. Make two copies of each part. That way you have redundancy against accidental loss as well as greater protection against theft.
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1703
airbet.io
Making more copies is risky too. A burglar might steal your home copy while you are not home... You may protect yourself from a natural disaster but then there will be other risks... On the other hand having only one copy is also risky because anything can happen to it. There isn't a foolproof easy solution to this problem imo. Physical paper wallets have their own risks, memorizing the seed words is also dangerous because dementia is a bitch... computers can get broken or get hacked if they are connected to the internet. Should you make 2 copies of your priv keys? Maybe. But I know for sure, you shouldn't make more than 2.
There is no easy solution, every choice will have risks and the risks will certainly vary.
Having more than one backup will be risky if the other backup is known by others, therefore securing all backups becomes the main focus.

Don't let one of the backups get out of your control. It is not easy to safeguard something valuable, especially when it is related to future investments that can only be opened with the key.

There are so many security alternatives that can be used as options, but look back at what risks can occur. Adjust to our needs and abilities as users. 


Quote
"Security isn't securities. It's knowing that someone cares whether you are or cease to be"
- Malcolm Forbes
  Entrepreneur and publisher (Forbes Magazine) from the United States
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 2420
Hear me out guys.

Paper can be really fragile, and all it takes is a tear or water spill or defacing to deny you access to your BTC forever.

So, you should make a second copy of your seed phrase that is identical to the first, and store it on a different place from the first seed so that they both cannot go down together except in extreme circumstances like a natural disaster.

Making more copies is risky too. A burglar might steal your home copy while you are not home... You may protect yourself from a natural disaster but then there will be other risks... On the other hand having only one copy is also risky because anything can happen to it. There isn't a foolproof easy solution to this problem imo. Physical paper wallets have their own risks, memorizing the seed words is also dangerous because dementia is a bitch... computers can get broken or get hacked if they are connected to the internet. Should you make 2 copies of your priv keys? Maybe. But I know for sure, you shouldn't make more than 2.
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1703
airbet.io
Could be. A sufficiently powerful quantum computer running Grover's algorithm can perform a brute force search in O(√n) functions, rather than O(n) functions as a standard computer would. This means that a 2128 string could be brute forced in only 264 iterations. This is all dependent on very powerful quantum computers though, which are a long way off.
Quantum computers that use Grover's algorithm in the case of breaking symmetric encryption algorithms such as AES (Advanced Encryption Standard) are only able to weaken their strength or reduce all possible encryption keys to half.

In contrast, if a quantum computer solves an asymmetric encryption algorithm such as RSA, then a quantum computer can break it, especially for RSA-1024.

But in Bitcoin using the 256-bit ECDSA digital signature system, the possibility of encryption keys that can be done effectively Brute Force from 2256 to 2128.
So with the calculation capabilities of Quantum Computing and Grover's algorithm, it takes 2.6 x 1032 years.

Currently, it is still very unlikely to be used commercially, Quantum Computers are also tagged with very expensive prices such as D-Wave Systems products and some special licenses are needed because they are only used by a few large companies and research institutions.  
https://www.dwavesys.com/solutions-and-products/systems/

Source:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Elliptic_Curve_Digital_Signature_Algorithm
https://www.section.io/engineering-education/aes-rsa-encryption/
https://www.csis.org/blogs/strategic-technologies-blog/encryption-security-post-quantum-world

I think people get too hung up on metal seed phrase storage, and it can actually lead to poor practices. Because of the expense of such devices, many people will just buy a single device and that will be their only back up. Only having one back up is a very risky situation, especially if that one back up is stored at home alongside the device(s) your wallet(s) are installed on. Two pieces of paper in separate geographical locations is safer (not to mention cheaper and easier) than a single metal back up.
Expensive because the materials used also support security (depending on how many assets are stored) it doesn't matter if the metal reserve costs hundreds of dollars but is used to store assets worth millions of dollars, it is not easily damaged and even withstands any conditions.

Actually, this is only optional for advanced security. Using standard security or more affordable ways is also fine, as long as the backup is in good condition.
Having 2 or more backups will help, but all of them must be secure and have full control.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1246
Hear me out guys.

Paper can be really fragile, and all it takes is a tear or water spill or defacing to deny you access to your BTC forever.

So, you should make a second copy of your seed phrase that is identical to the first, and store it on a different place from the first seed so that they both cannot go down together except in extreme circumstances like a natural disaster.
Two is even too small if the person can write as many as he or she can let them do it. Because the two copies can also be misplaced or lost. So having more might save the disappointment and lost of coins. I have five copies in different places. I didn't keep them in one place, I heard one in my father's house, another in my mother's house, one is in my office and two are with me.
The two I kept with me are the original but the other ones, I changed one particular figure in all which I know it in my memory. And it is on the first later for all. That is the different between the ones that are with me and the other ones.
You can also go to parenting press or print it with a HP Laptop printer 🖨️ to print it and laminate it so that the laminating paper will become a water resistant to the seed paper.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18509
Is the increasingly powerful computer technology related to Quantum Computers?
Could be. A sufficiently powerful quantum computer running Grover's algorithm can perform a brute force search in O(√n) functions, rather than O(n) functions as a standard computer would. This means that a 2128 string could be brute forced in only 264 iterations. This is all dependent on very powerful quantum computers though, which are a long way off.

Or use a "Timer Capsule" which will protect any document well, is fire and water-resistant, and can withstand any condition.
I think people get too hung up on metal seed phrase storage, and it can actually lead to poor practices. Because of the expense of such devices, many people will just buy a single device and that will be their only back up. Only having one back up is a very risky situation, especially if that one back up is stored at home alongside the device(s) your wallet(s) are installed on. Two pieces of paper in separate geographical locations is safer (not to mention cheaper and easier) than a single metal back up.
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1703
airbet.io
-snip-
By the way, if you try to memorize 18 or 24 words, then you shouldn't trust your mind in this case because it's too much to properly remember for a long period of time. 12 words are fine!
12 words will also not be fine and you should not trust your mind completely. The human brain is indeed capable of remembering anything in the long run if it is trained, but the human brain also has an age. As we get older or enter the aging period the brain's ability will decrease slightly.
Senile dementia will be a problem if you have to remember 12 words without any copies.

-snip-
As time goes on computers will become more and more powerful and some who have really messed up with their backup hope to be able to discover their treasure chest.
Is the increasingly powerful computer technology related to Quantum Computers?
Which certainly has more capabilities than today's conventional computers. It has the incredible speed to manage and decode anything.

-snip-
You are more likely to remember where you physically put something than a list of words you just repeat to yourself over and over. And if you forget the location of your back up, you can at least look for it. If you forget your memorized seed phrase, your coins are gone.
That would be a serious problem. No library list will be remembered if some phrases are forgotten. The brain's ability will continue to decline.
Instead of risking losing it without any trace, it is better to record it in physical form and store it in a safe place.
Or use a "Timer Capsule" which will protect any document well, is fire and water-resistant, and can withstand any condition.

The choice of material or container used to store documents can choose Stainless material which is more sturdy and rust or corrosion-resistant.
Even on Amazon, there are those who sell "Time Capsule Stainless Steel Waterproof" specialized for storing important documents that can be an option and not be afraid that documents will be damaged for many years.


hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 642
Magic
is remembering 12 words that hard?

It is actually very hard if you are in bitcoin for more then 10 years like me. You will never use these words and therefore definitely forget them at some point. What you should salsa consider is that you can get in a car accident or similar and forget your words because if this.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18509
Stroke affects short-term memory more than long-term memory.
Sometimes. Sometimes not. Far too risky an assumption to make.

And if you get into crash or get a heart attack, develop dementia or something terrible happens, the first question is if you survive and the second question is, if you actually remember that you have bitcoins or in best case, where you saved your seeds.
You are more likely to remember where you physically put something than a list of words you just repeat to yourself over and over. And if you forget the location of your back up, you can at least look for it. If you forget your memorized seed phrase, your coins are gone.

Memorizing isn't that hard or bad practice.
Only if you also have physical back ups. Relying only on your memory is very bad practice.
legendary
Activity: 3220
Merit: 5634
Blackjack.fun-Free Raffle-Join&Win $50🎲
But what if, you have 1,000 Bitcoins in your wallet, and you forget one word, JUST ONE WORD, and you have no copies of your seed phrase anywhere because "remembering 12 word is not that hard". You'll definitely know the true meaning of manual brute-forcing. Hahaha.

One missing word from the seed is not too much of a problem, I think that finding even three words is feasible with today's technology in some reasonable time. As time goes on computers will become more and more powerful and some who have really messed up with their backup hope to be able to discover their treasure chest.

Of course, a lot of bad things can be avoided if we take some basic precautions, and one of the basic ones is to understand that only one backup represents a big risk, but even 2 or 3 in the same location in some cases will not help if it is about ordinary paper.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 772
Watch Bitcoin Documentary - https://t.ly/v0Nim
is remembering 12 words that hard?

It's not.. until it is. Just imagine a stroke, or a (motor)bike crash, or many other things the can happen to you.
Plus, mind is a very strange thing. In a year or two you will be certain the 5th word in your seed is "about" and in reality it was always "above".
So no. It's not difficult to keep in mind 12 words for a while. But the longer that while is, the more chances for something to go wrong.
Stroke affects short-term memory more than long-term memory. And if you get into crash or get a heart attack, develop dementia or something terrible happens, the first question is if you survive and the second question is, if you actually remember that you have bitcoins or in best case, where you saved your seeds.

Memorizing isn't that hard or bad practice. If you try to memorize seed phrases every day for multiple times in a one year timeframe (keep seeds for some months or one year), if you write them down very often and then burn that paper all the time for security purpose, or if you write them down on keyboard (unplugged from computer), then you not only depend on your just memory alone, you also seal it deep inside your muscle-brain memory, you touch the keyboard and your hand know what to write.

By the way, if you try to memorize 18 or 24 words, then you shouldn't trust your mind in this case because it's too much to properly remember for a long period of time. 12 words are fine!

In my school, emphasis was on memorizing of information, probably that played its role into making it easier to memorize things.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
is remembering 12 words that hard?


But what if, you have 1,000 Bitcoins in your wallet, and you forget one word, JUST ONE WORD, and you have no copies of your seed phrase anywhere because "remembering 12 word is not that hard". You'll definitely know the true meaning of manual brute-forcing. Hahaha.

 Cool

OP, have both physical copies, and digital copies. Put the physical copy in a tightly sealed pack, and store it under lock+key in a safe. Encrypt the digital copy in a USB Drive and place it in nested directories, with each layer encrypted, and with different passwords.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1031
Only BTC
especially if write one of the letters wrongly.
I can relate to this experience, i have a friend who thought writing one word out of his seed phrase was a good way to protect it if someone found the seed phrase, but it is only good until you yourself forget correctly what the last word is, and lock yourself out of your funds. What my friend did was that he would write 12 words down, but one is incorrect, then he would try to memorize the correct word that was omitted, and that which is incorrectly included, so whenever he wants to import his wallet, he would eliminate the incorrect word and replcace it with the correct word he had in his memory, at the time i thought this was a good thing to do.

After close to a year, my friend couldn't remember the correct word he committed to his memory, it was surprising and i can even call it a traumatic experience for him because he kept trying and thinking, he was successful in less that 24 hours though, but it was a risky event, imagine if one can forget just one word, what about 12 words. Memorising seed phrases or trying to be too clever while backing it up is so risky, just do the simple things and have more than one backup.
legendary
Activity: 2366
Merit: 2054
Make 3 seed backups in steel washers (or titanium).
titanium is most expensive, you can try to buy cheaper steel SS304, it's enough save with house fire temperature, and I tested in my journal research.

Beberapa bulan lalu saya membeli lembaran plat metal berjenis SS304 yang banyak dipakai untuk menyimpan 12/24 word mnemonic seed oleh beberapa perusahaan terkenal crypto.

Karena kalau beli langsung jadi itu mahal, maka juga berinisiatif membuat sendiri dengan membeli lembaran plat SS304 secara online. Murah, tidak sampai 100 ribu, dan masih bisa di potong beberapa bagian sehingga masih sisa banyak untuk nyimpan yang lain.

Dan kebetulan juga sekarang ini lagi ada kerjaan workshop dan ada alat untuk melakukan tempering logam, maka saya berinisiatif untuk melakukan pengujian sendiri terhadap ketahanan panas plat SS304 yang saya beli tempo hari. Biar nanti tidak ragu, karena plat SS304 yang saya beli tersebut bisa jadi bukan yang sebenarnya, sehingga kalau terjadi sesuatu misalnya kebakaran, meleleh atau tidak kuat menahan panas.

1. Plat saya potong sedikit (hanya sebagai spesimen), berukuran Panjang 65mm, lebar 33mm dan tebal 3mm. lalu saya stamping.



2. bersiap melakukan pemanasan atau furnace dengan menggunakan alat ber-merk Nabertherm asal jerman.
ketika sudah mencapai suhu 900° C, plat saya masukan dan menunggu 10 menit



3. Setelah itu saya keluarkan dan dengan bantuan teman untuk menyiramnya dengan air (mungkin lebih baik dibiarkan begitu saja tanpa menyiram dengan air)



4. Dan, gambar di bawah adalah penampakan setelah dipanaskan dan tempering, tampak tidak ada perubahan, tulisan masih dapat terbaca walau sedikit menghitam



5. Untuk menghilangkan kehitaman, saya berinisiatif mengamplasnya, dan tulisan sudah nampak terang terbaca



Jadi kesimpulannya, Plat SS304 (memang betul-betul SS304 asli) yang saya beli di toko online tersebut cukup kuat menahan panas di suhu 900° C selama 10 menit. Karena pada beberapa kejadian, suhu 900 tersebut adalah suhu kebakaran rumah tertinggi, dan 10 menit itu adalah waktu tercepat jika ada mobil pemadam yang menyiramnya dengan air.

Mungkin ini bisa dijadikan patokan dan dasar buat kalian untuk mulai menyimpan word mnemonic seed di logam berjenis SS304 tersebut.




a. Dasar saya ambil suhu 900 [1].

[1]. https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasional/20201023194626-12-562173/suhu-api-kebakaran-kejagung-capai-900-derajat-celsius

b. sebenarnya respon time pemadam kebakaran datang itu 15 menit [2]. namun karena itu terpenitng dalam hidup saya, dapat dipastikan jika memang terjadi, plat SS304 tersebut akan saya sangat perhatikan, mungkin jika (amit-amit) terjadi, itu dulu yang diselamatkan dari dalam brangkas. Jadi 10 menit itu maksimal, bisa jadi kurang karena yakin sih safenya berlapis.

[2]. https://sippn.menpan.go.id/pelayanan-publik/sulawesi-selatan/kabupaten-soppeng/layanan-response-time-penanggulangan-kejadian-kebakaran-

c. kalau ragu (misal beli online) plat misal ss304, titanium, dsb Asli,  baiknya di uji komposisi di lab, namun ya itu mahal, tidak sebanding dengan beli asli yang bersertifikat. Saya melakukan manual pengujian di atas karena memang ada kesempatan aja, kalau pun memang kepepet dan ragu, bisa diuji coba di atas kompor gas, tapi musti izin dulu sama emak.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 855
Very hard than you can imagine. Haven't you heard of memory lose before? Brain dimentia and so on? Yes, we all know the danger of writing seed phrases on a tangible materials but cramming it is not the best way neither. Writing on a paper should be out of options completely as it is not secure at all. In my opinion, metal plate has covered me and my seed phrase already.

Look for a sizeable flat metal plate, a nail or needle and hammer to print your seed phrases on the metal by making it in form of hole. It actually takes a little bit time but it is more safer and resistant to both fire and water. Ensure to save it in a dry, clean and private place to avoid hole blockage.

This doesn’t still eliminate the risk entirely because if it is save in a place where no one could actually get to then if there’s is a case of serious brain trauma like amnesia where it is hard to remember past events then it will also make it hard to find where it is stored. So no matter how hard it is to trust people there should be a family member that one needs to share one of the storage places with. As this could also be vital in recovering this funds should the owner dies
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