You should write two copies of your seed phrase. - page 3.

yudi09

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Quote from: NotATether on March 28, 2023, 02:06:52 PM

Hear me out guys.

Paper can be really fragile, and all it takes is a tear or water spill or defacing to deny you access to your BTC forever.

So, you should make a second copy of your seed phrase that is identical to the first, and store it on a different place from the first seed so that they both cannot go down together except in extreme circumstances like a natural disaster.

Although it doesn't sound like much of a novelty, it is quite an important suggestion to make in terms of greater security.
The second seed pharse backup besides being stored on paper, it is a good idea to prepare another place to store such as in a metal mold that can withstand a fire.
As for other natural disasters, they are of course beyond our reach as humans.

hugeblack

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Quote from: NotATether on March 29, 2023, 12:29:21 AM

You'd need to read it at least 20+ times before it starts to stick in your head.

Psychological pressure is enough for that, I remember that when there are remain five minutes to finish the exam, I forget all information.
So what about remembering the private key for your money, especially if write one of the letters wrongly.
So even if your memory is good, it is the worst choice.

Quote from: NotATether on March 29, 2023, 12:29:21 AM

Also if you watch tiktok, the chances of you remembering 12 words drops significantly (no joke).

Thank God, I have not download TikTok since it was Musical.ly.

knowngunman

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Quote from: CryptoHFs on March 28, 2023, 02:27:25 PM

is remembering 12 words that hard?

Very hard than you can imagine. Haven't you heard of memory lose before? Brain dimentia and so on? Yes, we all know the danger of writing seed phrases on a tangible materials but cramming it is not the best way neither. Writing on a paper should be out of options completely as it is not secure at all. In my opinion, metal plate has covered me and my seed phrase already.

Look for a sizeable flat metal plate, a nail or needle and hammer to print your seed phrases on the metal by making it in form of hole. It actually takes a little bit time but it is more safer and resistant to both fire and water. Ensure to save it in a dry, clean and private place to avoid hole blockage.

bpkdasbaum

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Quote from: Yamane_Keto on March 28, 2023, 10:53:52 PM

Quote from: NotATether on March 28, 2023, 02:06:52 PM

like a natural disaster.

The problem of creating more than one wallet seed with earthquakes is in distributing them, you will be forced to keep one of them away from you or your home and perhaps your geographical area, which increases the risk that someone else will be able to know it.

There are multiple ways to encrypt/secure your seed backups so they are not readable even if someone finds them in the open at a different location from yours.
There are ways to encrypt a seed in a way that you could show it to people, they would think it's a real seed, but they wouldn't be able to get to your coins.
There are also ways to encrypt a seed in a way that you could show it to people and they wouldn't even recognise it as a seed, so they wouldn't be able to get to your coins.

For example: Simple cipher (Youtube link with timestamp), Passphrase, XOR, Shamir secret sharing, Multisig, and more.

Make 3 seed backups in steel washers (or titanium). And ideally encrypt them with a simple cipher (easiest and fastest) or use a passphrase and store that separately.

Earthquake proof, Low cost, affordable, easily scalable, indestructible, fireproof 1400°C (a house fire is around 1100°C), waterproof, corrosion proof, shock proof, offline cold wallet, seed or passphrase backup.

https://i.etsystatic.com/41503409/r/il/689efd/4813988559/il_1588xN.4813988559_fcds.jpg
Picture taken from here: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1434977816

More information on that topic here:

https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/
https://incoherency.co.uk/blog/stories/diy-cryptosteel-capsule.html
https://blog.lopp.net/a-treatise-on-bitcoin-seed-backup-device-design/
https://www.econoalchemist.com/post/backup
https://blockmit.com/english/guides/diy/make-cold-wallet-washers/
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/securing-your-seed-phrase-with-washers-5389446

m2017

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Quote from: NotATether on March 28, 2023, 02:06:52 PM

Hear me out guys.

Paper can be really fragile, and all it takes is a tear or water spill or defacing to deny you access to your BTC forever.

So, you should make a second copy of your seed phrase that is identical to the first, and store it on a different place from the first seed so that they both cannot go down together except in extreme circumstances like a natural disaster.

Your proposal is not new and this issue has been discussed many times, but it is better to repeat this several times in order to avoid unexpected losses in the future.

Paper is a fragile carrier of information and you can't argue here. Then maybe use other, more reliable ones? Metal, plastic. Plastic? I don't remember anyone suggesting this option. Sure, it's not the best way, but it might be better than paper. Although it can't withstand fire in the same way, neither the tears of bitcoiners nor water can spoil the text. Easy to apply: heat iron dies and press against a piece of plastic.

Two copies may not be enough. At a minimum, you should start with 3 pieces.
I see it like this: 1 carrier of seed phrases on paper in easy accessibility, which is not a pity to lose. 2 media on plastic, for example, stored more securely. 3 carrier - on metal and hidden in the most reliable way in the most inaccessible place and being the very last reserve.

NotATether

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Quote from: Yamane_Keto on March 28, 2023, 10:53:52 PM

Quote from: CryptoHFs on March 28, 2023, 02:27:25 PM

is remembering 12 words that hard?

It is especially difficult, and with the ease of using technology in everything, our dependence on our brains has become less. I do not remember my keys easily, but supposing it is easy, there are problems beyond your control. I will quote some of them from o_e_l_e_o:

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 12, 2022, 10:18:40 AM

Each year:

69 million traumatic brain injuries: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29701556/
12 million strokes: https://www.world-stroke.org/assets/downloads/WSO_Global_Stroke_Fact_Sheet.pdf
10 million new diagnoses of dementia: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/dementia
5 million new diagnoses of epilepsy: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/epilepsy
2.5 million cases of meningitis: https://www.path.org/articles/toward-world-without-meningitis/
2 million new brain tumors: https://academic.oup.com/noa/article/3/1/vdaa178/6043315
1.5 million cases of encephalitis: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0163445322002110

That's each year, and that's only major conditions which directly affect the brain.

- Yamane

Also if you watch tiktok, the chances of you remembering 12 words drops significantly (no joke).

You'd need to read it at least 20+ times before it starts to stick in your head.

Yamane_Keto

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Quote from: NotATether on March 28, 2023, 02:06:52 PM

like a natural disaster.

I created this thread a while ago, it will be useful in case of earthquakes Is Metal Seed Storage Safe in an Earthquake? .

The problem of creating more than one wallet seed with earthquakes is in distributing them, you will be forced to keep one of them away from you or your home and perhaps your geographical area, which increases the risk that someone else will be able to know it.

Quote from: CryptoHFs on March 28, 2023, 02:27:25 PM

is remembering 12 words that hard?

It is especially difficult, and with the ease of using technology in everything, our dependence on our brains has become less. I do not remember my keys easily, but supposing it is easy, there are problems beyond your control. I will quote some of them from o_e_l_e_o:

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 12, 2022, 10:18:40 AM

Each year:

69 million traumatic brain injuries: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29701556/
12 million strokes: https://www.world-stroke.org/assets/downloads/WSO_Global_Stroke_Fact_Sheet.pdf
10 million new diagnoses of dementia: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/dementia
5 million new diagnoses of epilepsy: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/epilepsy
2.5 million cases of meningitis: https://www.path.org/articles/toward-world-without-meningitis/
2 million new brain tumors: https://academic.oup.com/noa/article/3/1/vdaa178/6043315
1.5 million cases of encephalitis: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0163445322002110

That's each year, and that's only major conditions which directly affect the brain.

- Yamane

NotATether

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Quote from: CryptoHFs on March 28, 2023, 02:27:25 PM

is remembering 12 words that hard?

It takes time to memorize it and that only happens after entering it often.

Quote from: CryptoHFs on March 28, 2023, 02:41:42 PM

it is kinda worrying leaving your seeds somewhere someone can find but for sure there are solutions. This is the real risk of crypto currencies.

What? The implication was that you put both of your papers in areas of your room or house only you can find.

Quote from: bpkdasbaum on March 28, 2023, 05:23:11 PM

Let me introduce you to our lord and savior: Crypto Seed backup in steel washers.

Washers are nice but a lot of people are still going to use paper anyway, hence this message.

bpkdasbaum

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Paper?

Let me introduce you to our lord and savior: Crypto Seed backup in steel washers.

Low cost, affordable, easily scalable, indestructible, fireproof 1400°C (a house fire is around 1100°C), waterproof, corrosion proof, shock proof, earthquake proof, offline cold wallet, seed or passphrase backup.

https://i.etsystatic.com/41503409/r/il/689efd/4813988559/il_1588xN.4813988559_fcds.jpg
Picture taken from here: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1434977816

More information on that topic here:

https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/
https://incoherency.co.uk/blog/stories/diy-cryptosteel-capsule.html
http://bulletproofbitcoin.com/
https://blog.lopp.net/a-treatise-on-bitcoin-seed-backup-device-design/
https://www.econoalchemist.com/post/backup
https://blockmit.com/english/guides/diy/make-cold-wallet-washers/
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/securing-your-seed-phrase-with-washers-5389446

dkbit98

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Quote from: NotATether on March 28, 2023, 02:06:52 PM

Paper can be really fragile, and all it takes is a tear or water spill or defacing to deny you access to your BTC forever.

You are inventing the wheel all over again Cheesy

We all know that paper is easy to get damaged, burned or destroyed by water, but that can happen to all your paper copies.
It's much better to use secondary backup option something more substantial, made from stainless steel, it can be washers or metal plates, whatever you prefer.

Quote from: NotATether on March 28, 2023, 02:06:52 PM

So, you should make a second copy of your seed phrase that is identical to the first, and store it on a different place from the first seed so that they both cannot go down together except in extreme circumstances like a natural disaster.

I wouldn't stop at only two copies, because three is better than two.
Adding one or more passphrase is also a good suggestions, and multisig setup is even better.

Quote from: CryptoHFs on March 28, 2023, 02:41:42 PM

it is kinda worrying leaving your seeds somewhere someone can find but for sure there are solutions. This is the real risk of crypto currencies.

Your brain is much worse place to keep anything important, especially something like seed words.
This is the real risk of human body experience, and you wouldn't be the first to lose coins for trusting your brain so much.

_act_

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Quote from: CryptoHFs on March 28, 2023, 02:41:42 PM

it is kinda worrying leaving your seeds somewhere someone can find but for sure there are solutions. This is the real risk of crypto currencies.

If you are worrying about your seed phrase and you do not want anyone to steal your coins, you can add passphrase to it. If you add passphrase, you are safe but you have to let the passphrase to be strong. Eight to ten or more characters that consists of alphabets, numbers and characters like .,@ should be enough.

CryptoHFs

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Quote from: _act_ on March 28, 2023, 02:35:59 PM

Quote from: CryptoHFs on March 28, 2023, 02:27:25 PM

is remembering 12 words that hard?

Do not depend on your memory because memory can fail anyone at anytime. The best is to backup your seed phrase in two places. If you keep it in three different places, it makes it better.

Most people can have more than one wallet. Some people can have 2, 3 or more wallets, keeping their seed phrases offhand wouldn't be ideal.

it is kinda worrying leaving your seeds somewhere someone can find but for sure there are solutions. This is the real risk of crypto currencies.

_act_

legendary

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Lightning network is good with small amount of BTC

Quote from: CryptoHFs on March 28, 2023, 02:27:25 PM

is remembering 12 words that hard?

Do not depend on your memory because memory can fail anyone at anytime. The best is to backup your seed phrase in two places. If you keep it in three different places, it makes it better.

Most people can have more than one wallet. Some people can have 2, 3 or more wallets, keeping their seed phrases offhand wouldn't be ideal.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: NotATether on March 28, 2023, 02:06:52 PM

Paper can be really fragile, and all it takes is a tear or water spill or defacing to deny you access to your BTC forever.

So, you should make a second copy of your seed phrase that is identical to the first, and store it on a different place from the first seed so that they both cannot go down together except in extreme circumstances like a natural disaster.

Well, this advice is far from new. But indeed, it's good to remind people now and then about it (I would have been expecting this in B&H though).

Quote from: CryptoHFs on March 28, 2023, 02:27:25 PM

is remembering 12 words that hard?

It's not.. until it is. Just imagine a stroke, or a (motor)bike crash, or many other things the can happen to you.
Plus, mind is a very strange thing. In a year or two you will be certain the 5th word in your seed is "about" and in reality it was always "above".
So no. It's not difficult to keep in mind 12 words for a while. But the longer that while is, the more chances for something to go wrong.

CryptoHFs

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is remembering 12 words that hard?

NotATether

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Hear me out guys.

Paper can be really fragile, and all it takes is a tear or water spill or defacing to deny you access to your BTC forever.

So, you should make a second copy of your seed phrase that is identical to the first, and store it on a different place from the first seed so that they both cannot go down together except in extreme circumstances like a natural disaster.

Topic: You should write two copies of your seed phrase. - page 3. (Read 713 times)