ZeroCoin Whitepaper Discussion (is it the first truly innovative ALT coin????) - page 2.

CoinHoarder

legendary

Activity: 1484

Merit: 1026

In Cryptocoins I Trust

Quote from: limitless on May 11, 2013, 11:49:31 PM

Yeah I understand. But how would the state function then?

Schools, hospitals, police, emergency units, parks, roads EVERYTHING is paid for with tax money.

How would this work if bitcoin is not to be regulated?

That's the thing, the Government would have to figure that out.. this cannot be stopped if implemented. They would have to take down the Bitcoin network.

If everyone started using Bitcoins for everyday transactions, the Government would be cut out of all revenue streams.

Like I said earlier, if this were to get really popular, to pay for schools, hospitals, police, emergency units, parks, roads, etc., people would have to pay for each government service they want, instead of it just automatically coming out of taxes.

An added benefit is people would not have to pay for services they don't want and wars they don't want to fight.

limitless

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Alright, we're making some progress. But the whole system needs to be revamped, to implement bitcoin.

Not saying it couldn't be done

Don't get me wrong. I too dream of a future like in sci-fi movies or games where we would pay with "credits" instantly and everywhere anywhere

Rave

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: limitless on May 11, 2013, 11:49:31 PM

Yeah I understand. But how would the state function then?

Schools, hospitals, police, emergency units, parks, roads EVERYTHING is paid for with tax money.

How would this work if bitcoin is not to be regulated?

Quote from: CoinHoarder on May 11, 2013, 11:42:44 PM

This is a very libertarianish idea, but it's simple- each person chooses whether they want to have those services. If they do, then they have to pay for them. If they don't, then they won't get the services and don't have to pay for them.

limitless

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Yeah I understand. But how would the state function then?

Schools, hospitals, police, emergency units, parks, roads EVERYTHING is paid for with tax money.

How would this work if bitcoin is not to be regulated?

CoinHoarder

legendary

Activity: 1484

Merit: 1026

In Cryptocoins I Trust

Quote from: limitless on May 11, 2013, 11:46:15 PM

And this is the problem man!

If more and more people commit tax evasion like this, someone is bound to make it illegal.

And if it's going to be illegal, exchanges will be shut down.

And guess what? No more tax evasion ^_^

You are so focused on FIAT.... the world does not have to revolve around FIAT.

There is no need for exchanges if you can spend Bitcoin everywhere.

limitless

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

And this is the problem man!

If more and more people commit tax evasion like this, someone is bound to make it illegal.

And if it's going to be illegal, exchanges will be shut down.

And guess what? No more tax evasion ^_^

CoinHoarder

legendary

Activity: 1484

Merit: 1026

In Cryptocoins I Trust

Quote from: limitless on May 11, 2013, 11:42:12 PM

In order for that to happen, you'd have to tax it m8

Otherwise tax evasion can happen through the use of bitcoin which won't be accepted by any government.

Of course, once it's taxed, it has to be regulated.

And this is against all that bitcoin stands for.. :-s

But a middle way will probably be found.

You think tax evasion is not already happening with Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies? Cheesy

ZeroCoin would make it even easier. The government would have to change their whole tax infrastructure. Someone would have to pay for each government service they would like to receive.

This is peer to peer, to stop ZeroCoin they would have to kill Bitcoin itself, and with TOR-like services I don't see how it could be stopped considering if Bitcoin was widely accepted.

CoinHoarder

legendary

Activity: 1484

Merit: 1026

In Cryptocoins I Trust

Quote from: limitless on May 11, 2013, 11:37:40 PM

And if everything accepted bitcoins and nobody paid taxes, how would you pay the state to provide services like: police, emergency services, infrastructure, public services, public buildings, etc?

This is a very libertarianish idea, but it's simple- each person chooses whether they want to have those services. If they do, then they have to pay for them. If they don't, then they won't get the services and don't have to pay for them.

limitless

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

In order for that to happen, you'd have to tax it m8

Otherwise tax evasion can happen through the use of bitcoin which won't be accepted by any government.

Of course, once it's taxed, it has to be regulated.

And this is against all that bitcoin stands for.. :-s

But a middle way will probably be found.

CoinHoarder

legendary

Activity: 1484

Merit: 1026

In Cryptocoins I Trust

Quote from: limitless on May 11, 2013, 11:36:30 PM

What about people that don't have computers? How do you expect them to pay? ^_^

And every national bank has a gold reserve man. No economy classes ?

They can use FIAT.

Imagine the guy at the cash register saying "cash, debit, credit, or Bitcoin?" Wink

limitless

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

And if everything accepted bitcoins and nobody paid taxes, how would you pay the state to provide services like: police, emergency services, infrastructure, public services, public buildings, etc?

limitless

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

What about people that don't have computers? How do you expect them to pay? ^_^

And every national bank has a gold reserve man. No economy classes ?

CoinHoarder

legendary

Activity: 1484

Merit: 1026

In Cryptocoins I Trust

Quote from: limitless on May 11, 2013, 11:28:10 PM

Yes but FIAT currency has gold as backup.

Bitcoin has FIAT currency as backup.

Something to report to.

Bitcoin would be worthless without the dollar.

So in order for an exchange to actually work, one would have to exchange these bitcoins into stuff that actually have value, like gold or fiat currency.
Either that, or simply just convert all currency to bitcoins, which would be impossible in the next 50-100 years.
In order for bitcoin to have value, people need to offer services and goods in exchange for bitcoins. Then they need to actually be able to do something with those bitcoins in order to get value out of them (i.e. exchange them for money so they can pay their bills/food/etc.).

Do you see my point?
You can have as many exchanges as you'd like. If it's illegal you won't be able to convert the bitcoins to currency. Which means they would be worthless, as FIAT is what gives everything value.

So the bitcoin idea is fundamentally flawed. Unless it can be taxed.

If every store, everybody, and everything accepted Bitcoin, then there would be no need for FIAT. It's value would still be upheld by the free market and everyone could do with Bitcoin anything they could ever wish to do with FIAT. Bitcoin is only going to get more and more adopted, its popularity is growing at an exponential rate.

Also, since 1971 the dollar is no longer backed by gold or silver.

Rave

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: limitless on May 11, 2013, 11:28:10 PM

Yes but FIAT currency has gold as backup.

Sure xD

limitless

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Yes but FIAT currency has gold as backup.

Bitcoin has FIAT currency as backup.

Something to report to.

Bitcoin would be worthless without the dollar.

So in order for an exchange to actually work, one would have to exchange these bitcoins into stuff that actually have value, like gold or fiat currency.
Either that, or simply just convert all currency to bitcoins, which would be impossible in the next 50-100 years.
In order for bitcoin to have value, people need to offer services and goods in exchange for bitcoins. Then they need to actually be able to do something with those bitcoins in order to get value out of them (i.e. exchange them for money so they can pay their bills/food/etc.).

Do you see my point?
You can have as many exchanges as you'd like. If it's illegal you won't be able to convert the bitcoins to currency. Which means they would be worthless, as FIAT is what gives everything value.

So the bitcoin idea is fundamentally flawed. Unless it can be taxed.

CoinHoarder

legendary

Activity: 1484

Merit: 1026

In Cryptocoins I Trust

Quote from: limitless on May 11, 2013, 11:07:28 PM

Which leads us to the fundamental problem.

Inability to pay taxes means the whole economical system goes down.

No taxes = no economy. It's basic. A state, a government cannot function without taxes, they are essential for a countrys development.

And because you can't tax zerocoin, most probably governments will outlaw any legal transactions with zerocoins. So exchanges will not be able to trade these coins legally. They will still be used, but their value would be almost 0.

See my point? Which is also where bitcoin is heading if it can't be taxed. If bitcoin is to be universally adopted, it would have to be regulated.

Which kinda sucks. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea.

You bring up some valid points about taxes, however I think you overestimate the Governments control if this were to be implemented into Bitcoin. Also, many people feel that the Government wastes our tax dollars on unnecessary policies, this would enable us the people to take back financial control of our government, a truly democratic financial model. Simply make each person pay for what services they need or want. If they don't want protection from the police, they don't have to pay for it. If they don't want to fund a war across the ocean, they don't have to pay for it, etc.

The TOR network for example would be a prime place to have a ZeroCoin/Bitcoin exchange. Even though most tax system run on the honor system, the Government cannot tax you for an amount if they don't know how much it is or who owns it- ZeroCoin makes transactions completely anonymous. As long as the Bitcoin network is safe, then this idea could work if someone was to never exchange into FIAT and just buy things with their Bitcoins. I imagine there will be many many places that accept Bitcoins in about 10 years.

Rave

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: limitless on May 11, 2013, 11:07:28 PM

No taxes = no economy. It's basic. A state, a government cannot function without taxes, they are essential for a countrys development.

OMG! We're all gonna die!!!!!

Give me ZeroCoins and hail Discordia. Thanks.

limitless

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Which leads us to the fundamental problem.

Inability to pay taxes means the whole economical system goes down.

No taxes = no economy. It's basic. A state, a government cannot function without taxes, they are essential for a countrys development.

And because you can't tax zerocoin, most probably governments will outlaw any legal transactions with zerocoins. So exchanges will not be able to trade these coins legally. They will still be used, but their value would be almost 0.

See my point? Which is also where bitcoin is heading if it can't be taxed. If bitcoin is to be universally adopted, it would have to be regulated.

Which kinda sucks. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea.

CoinHoarder

legendary

Activity: 1484

Merit: 1026

In Cryptocoins I Trust

Quote from: Hydroponica on May 11, 2013, 10:58:42 PM

If you convert BTC into USD, and deposit it into your bank account, you better claim it on your taxes.

Sure, I agree you should always pay taxes on income.

However, as Bitcoin becomes more accepted at different stores and sites, doing Bitcoin business transactions that do not involve FIAT would be impossible to trace by the Government with ZeroCoin implemented.

Hydroponica

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

fml

Quote from: CoinHoarder on May 11, 2013, 10:56:07 PM

Also, I wanted to mention that as Bitcoin gets more and more popular, the more Governments are going to want to get involved. Let's face it the block chain is not completely anonymous. There is a paper trail- an account ledger for every address and transaction. Making cryptocoins more anonymous would help to avoid Government intrusion. Also, this will be backed by ASICs making the network really secure.

If you convert BTC into USD, and deposit it into your bank account, you better claim it on your taxes.

Topic: ZeroCoin Whitepaper Discussion (is it the first truly innovative ALT coin????) - page 2. (Read 3589 times)